Taksal faction under Baba Harnam Singh has NOT changed Gurbani

[Gurvah]

Need to verify the source of those puraatan birs, just becasue it's old doesn;t make it a correct bir. There is already a lot of inconsistency ith our history and dhumma is just adding to it.

So if they don;t sell it, it's ok? So if someone was do print one wihtou out raagmala but not sell it would tat be ok? obviously not, so stop justifying what dhumma is doing is correct. He isnt a panthic jathedar but self-proclaimed one, which half of taksal don;t even acknowledge. Is this the same dude who was sitting in Badal charan, givin him ladoo?

[.- Prabhjot Singh -.]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,

Here is the Mool Mantar Sahib with complete dandian as it appears in 1960 edition of Gurbani Path Darshan by Sant Gyani Gurbachan Singh Ji Khalsa Bhindranwale and published by Bhai Jawahar Singh Kirpal Singh:

And here is the Mool Mantar Sahib without the dandian in the same Gurbani Path Darpan published by Baba Harnam Singh Ji 'Dhumma', this is from the 2007 edition :

Not trying to add fuel to the controversy, just pointing out this grave factual anomaly within the Taksaali material that seems to have occurred over the years.

[PAL 07]

The pictures of flickr are absolutely amazing make sure you see all the very very rare puratan mahapurkh photos

[chatanga]

Need to verify the source of those puraatan birs, just becasue it's old doesn;t make it a correct bir. There is already a lot of inconsistency ith our history.

the thing that we can say about puratan birs is they are are copies of orginials or copies of copies of originals. the further times goes, the more "copies of" are available and as minute mistakes creep in, 200 years down the road, the difference willbe more explicit.

and dhumma is just adding to it

if you look at the pictures that i have posted, then you will see that he, assuming he PERSONALLY did it, is not the first to have omitted it.

So if they don;t sell it, it's ok? So if someone was do print one wihtou out raagmala but not sell it would tat be ok? obviously not, so stop justifying what dhumma is doing is correct. He isnt a panthic jathedar but self-proclaimed one, which half of taksal don;t even acknowledge. Is this the same dude who was sitting in Badal charan, givin him ladoo?

As of the Panthic rule, no-one can create a Saroop of Aad Guru without Sri Raagmala. So technically as from the Panthic decision, there is no such thing as a Saroop without Sri Raagmala, from thereafter. There can be gutkas without Sri Raagmala though. There is one premi from the akj in Amritsar who i have read, has written out his own gutka sahib of all the banis from ek oankar to tan man theeve hariya. This he has done for its for his own personal use, and as he doesnt read Sri Raagmala, he has seen no reason to include it in his Gutka Sahib. This is at his house only, and he takes it nowhere. Now if he tried to get it Parkash at a Gurdwara or something, he would be violating the Panthic decision.

I just looked at the picture multiple times and correct me if I'm wrong, those pictures you posted confirm that Dhumma changed Gurbani?

If you compare the changed one by Dhumma it removed the dandian all together which is deliberate. If he had done it exactly like the ones you posted above do you really think there would have been a problem?

You either do it right, admit a mistake or expect to be seeing for what he is doing.

Lets read that line again, "You either do it right, admit a mistake or expect to be seeing for what he is doing."

Thanks singh 559, because i have had a look at my own gutka and have inc 2 photos of relevance for YOU especially, as you ran this omission issue originally, but for everyone else as well, enjoy:

sorry the photos have come out sideways, apologies for any strained necks.

Now back to the discussion, who is going to say anything about Sant Jarnail Singh's panthic credentials? Singh 559 can start, seeing as he saw fit to run with the dogs...

Not trying to add fuel to the controversy, just pointing out this grave factual anomaly within the Taksaali material that seems to have occurred over the years.

Is it grave? It seems to me to be a mistake that has been happening for centuries. Maybe you have issues with taksal, just to point out the Taksal material has shortcomings?

So you can see that this omission is not the Fault of Baba Harnam Singh, but has been happening for some time know. Lets learn from this, THE MEDIA ISNT ALWAYS TRUE OR ACCURATE.

Any issues like this should be brought to this forum as academic research, not a witch hunt. We are all Sikhs, and our objective is to help each other progress, not push our own vindictiveness here.

[.- Prabhjot Singh -.]

Is it grave? It seems to me to be a mistake that has been happening for centuries. Maybe you have issues with taksal, just to point out the Taksal material has shortcomings?

So you can see that this omission is not the Fault of Baba Harnam Singh, but has been happening for some time know. Lets learn from this, THE MEDIA ISNT ALWAYS TRUE OR ACCURATE.

Veerji, my last peshi was with Taksaali Panj Pyaare Sahibs so I doubt I have any issues with Taksaal. I was merely pointing out what to me is a very visible anomaly between two editions of the same Pothi sahib, but I did not make any inferences or conclusions as to who or what or why it happened. But challo, that is me clarifying my stand, I'm not here to argue with anyone and you are free to speculate about my loyalties as you wish.

Dhanvaad!

[chatanga]

Veerji, my last peshi was with Taksaali Panj Pyaare Sahibs so I doubt I have any issues with Taksaal. I was merely pointing out what to me is a very visible anomaly between two editions of the same Pothi sahib, but I did not make any inferences or conclusions as to who or what or why it happened.

Bhaji, that is fine, who am i to question your credentials. I mistook that for a quote from gurvah, who's posts look like he has issues with the taksal, and somehow mixed your name in. apologies.

Bhaji can you explain what the "jap neesan " means, its the 1st time i has ever seen it.

[samosa]

here are another 2, the first of which has 2 lots of 2 dandia after "jap" Moolmantar_guruarjan.jpg

This looks to be the opening of the Kartarpuri Bir which our Taksali Veers accept as scribed by Bhai Gurdas and supervised by Guru Arjun Dev Ji. Some even say this Mool Mantar is written by Guru Sahib himself.

If this is the case, the alterations to Gutkeh or Saroops whether done at the time of Baba Harnam Singh or Sant Jarnail Singh cannot be accepted as correct.

[.- Prabhjot Singh -.]

Bhaji, that is fine, who am i to question your credentials. I mistook that for a quote from gurvah, who's posts look like he has issues with the taksal, and somehow mixed your name in. apologies.

Bhaji can you explain what the "jap neesan " means, its the 1st time i has ever seen it.

Koi Gal Nahi Veerji :hug:

I'm not sure about the exact meaning of 'Jap Neesan', maybe some learned Gurmukh soul can explain what it means jeo..

[Gurvah]

Bhaji, that is fine, who am i to question your credentials. I mistook that for a quote from gurvah, who's posts look like he has issues with the taksal, and somehow mixed your name in. apologies.

Bhaji can you explain what the "jap neesan " means, its the 1st time i has ever seen it.

I don't have a problem with the conept of DDT, hav huge respect for the Sant Jarnail Singh, S. Kartar Singh, S. Gurbachan Singh etc, but think that a minority of today's DDT are giving the rest a bad name.

I don't really care if you read mool mantar long or short, read reharas short or long, read or dont read raagmala, belive keski is kakkar or not, hey, eat meat or not, but please do not go around preaching that is the way it should be, and if anyone other jathebandi does something which doesnt fit in with DDT marayda (even if it is in line with Akal takhat) it's beadbi.

You have giani takhur singh (patiala) preahing that people who only read mool mantar to gurparsad will go to hell.... WHAT? read gurbani and got hell??????? how can even BE right?

And then he said General Subeg singh was shaheed in his laps, when he left golden temple complex 4 days before he even got shaheed. Giani Takhur singh claimed that he became an aatmik shaheed first... first time ive heard that your aatmaa dies?

[chatanga]

I don't really care if you read mool mantar long or short, read reharas short or long, read or dont read raagmala, belive keski is kakkar or not, hey, eat meat or not, but please do not go around preaching that is the way it should be, and if anyone other jathebandi does something which doesnt fit in with DDT marayda (even if it is in line with Akal takhat) it's beadbi.

OK bro i see where you are coming from, and i agree that as a panth we have to accept that there is diversity in the panth, and that we are not automatically right just because we do something, or dont do something that the other sampdaye or jathas do/dont.

Wherever there are issues in the Panth, we should not only look but ACCEPT the verdict given by Sri Akal Takht Sahib.

There are diehard minoritys in every faction of the Sikh Panth today, but Sri Akal Sahai, we will some day soon, accept each other for being different, so this goes out to all the "gang" members.

I havent heard what Giani Thakur Singh has said, but lets look at the Mool Mantar issuse objectivley.

What has really got my goat on this topic, is that it is actually an excellent topic for discussion, as to what the dandia state, how they determine the status of that particular line, alone and within the context of the wider text, but no. Someone decided to have a go at Baba Harnam Singh with it, without being objective, but narrow-minded.

Brothers and sister, bring issues like this to the forum to discuss and learn, not to vilify anyone.