How were karams and lekhs formed initially?

[tuhintuhin 665]

Sangat ji......this thing is explained in various sikh books and discourses....but too hard to understand.

Mohkam Singh ji,

Could you please shed some light on this based on your knowledge and experience in simple words? When our spirit came into human body for the first time....how were the karam and lekh formed? Were we given options to choose good or bad? All spirits must be pure at that time.

The rest of sangat is welcomed to share their views as well.

[savinderpalsingh 699]

Waheguru Ji,

Listen to Atam Gyan katha by Giani Thakur Singh ji Patiale Wale, it explains what bhai Daya Singh Ji explain on order of our guru

[N30S1NGH 3,092]

source: Discourse on beyond II- Sant Waryam Singh Ji Ratwara Sahib

~ Know your Real Self ~


First descended from Waheguru (God), a transparent ray, the conscious reality, which combing with nature took the epithet of living being. Round this ray, spread a mini globe- like substance, and the ray became resplendent. This state has been termed as the first separation (isolation) of atma(soul) from god(paratma) and has been called the sheath of bliss. After this, with the coming of thinking, one automatically moves into second circle of Maya (illusion). This is Miracle of Intellect. It was named the intellect of sheath. Descending lower still, there awakened the idea of making some achievement of producing something new. Affections and allurements brought this being under their control and pushed him into countless programmes, which are ever-expanding, so that the chain is never broken. The state of mind has been called the mental sheath. One was caught in the circle of resolution and repudiation. Beyond this stage, the cosmic energy pushed it still further down and called it the circle of power or the vital sheath. This power was born out of the relationships of the illusion. After this, it assumed some form and went on assuming different forms. As Guru Maharaj has ordained-

For several births thou became a worm and a moth.
In several birth thou wert an elephant, a fish and a deer.
In several births thou became a birth and a snake.
In several births thou were t yoked as a horse and a ox. SGGS JI- 176.

This cirlce of different bodies is called "Annmayee Kosh". Kosh the sheath of food.

In this way, this pure consciousness (drop) went on amassing around it tendencies towards illusions. It forgot its real nature and completely lost thought of the fact as to Who I am, and wherefrom I have come. Not recognizing oneself as the pure (divine) light, one started looking on oneself as just the body, which is made of five elements which is subject to all sorts of ills. The wise called this circle as sheath of food. It forsook it's real state of supreme happiness and considering oneself as the being of dust, it from the time immortal, has been going through the circle of births and deaths and has been experiencing untold miseries. He has been weeping and crying and lamenting. He does not realize how could he reunited with his original source(God), Who is all truth, all super consciousness and never ending bliss; and return to his original stage. So caught in miseries, he keeps on lamenting.

The seers, the prophets, the saints and sages, philosophers, and those who have known the secrets of the Divine have told man many supernatural ways to the real true path. These prophets having coming out of the source of all purity appeared in the most holy forms. They by their saying gave to man the gospel of vedas and puranas, bible and holy writ all of which assumed their loftiest form in the shape of Siri Guru Granth Sahib.

The fifth emperor of the world Guru Arjan Dev has commanded thus, to free his being from the circle of world of woe-

Sing the praise of the lord, O friendly saints, with alertness and single mindedness. SGGS JI - 295

This is a very simple path, treading on which man, over coming countless obstacles one can merge into his real self, which is all light. To achieve this goal, concentration of mind is extremely necessary. So long as one does not know how to achieve concentration of mind, that long all his prayers and other efforts remain fruitless. There are some tendencies of mind, which do not allow one to achieve concentration of mind. Of these, the first tendency is named Mentality of Evidence.

1. Mentality of Evidence (Parman Birthi/Regarding the outward world as the Supreme reality)- Whatever is the spread that is visible, they may be children, wife, parents, one's own body the different relationships of the bodies, friends, enemies, things that brings joys or sorrows remaining engrossed in all these things is termed Mindset of evidence. To withdraw the mind from this world of sights and sounds seems extremely difficult. Till one gets the guidance of a perfect Guru, one cannot be liberated from this visible world. Guru Maharaj's sermon is-

All that is seen, shall go not with thee, O Man. So abandon thou thy self-conceit and worldly attachment SGGS Ji- 1230

This being knows that he is not to stay in this world for all time, nor are sons and daughters, wife, parents eternal in the world, yet when one of them dies, he is over-whelmed with unbearable grief at their separation and can't rise above this slush.

2. The reverse mindset ( viparje birthi)- The second type of mentality is named the Reverse Mindset. In this stage, everything appears the opposite of what it is; things non-existent appear to have existed, and things existing seem non-existing. It is like the example of a traveling in summer through the desert, where man being tortured by thirst is desperately in need of water to quench his thirst. In the desert land, he has mirage that a river over-flowing with cold water is flowing at some distance from him. This deception seems to give to him some feeling to be a true fact. But when he reaches that place, he finds nothing there. It was just a mirage. Similarly, everyday he sees the world with his eyes and hears it with his ears and regards this outward world as full truth.

Before our very eyes, this world is seen passing away. SGGS JI - 325

Still he regards the world as a true reality. On the other hand Waheguru Ji, who is omnipresent and is immanent everywhere-

Wherever I see, there I see him present. He, my master, is never far from any place.
O my soul, ever remember him, who is contained in everything. SGGS Ji- 677

In the earth, in the sky
There pervades a light in all.
It can't be added to, nothing can be subtracted from it.
It permits no change (Akal Ustati, Siri Dasam Granth).


According to this holy write, inside and outside, all is full of good. With his power, go on the entire operation of the world; with the power of his name, the world appears, man regards this all pervading spirit as untrue. There is not trace of doubt in such a person. He feels that the world around him is all truth and God, who is All-perfection, spread all-round in the Universe is untrue. This mentality is called opposite Mindset. Guru Maharaj makes reference to it-

This world is the mountain of smoke.
What thought has made thee deem it real? SGGS Ji- 1187.

3. The sleeping mentality (niranda birthi)- The third type of mentality is called sleeping mindset. Man knows all and reads all, still he keeps lost under the power of sleep. This stage of forgetting the Reality is called the sleeping mentality.

4. Alternative Mentality (vikalp birthi)- The four kind is named Alternative mentality. Man does small good acts such as giving charity, the recitation of the bani and holy singing, and with the aid of these small items, he has hope of great fruit. In other words, under the influence of this mentality, one feels the great effect of desires. Little service and alternative mentality does not allow the mind to achieve full concentration in the prayers to God.

5. Remembering Mentality (Simriti Birthi)- The fifth type is the Remembering Mentality. When a person begins prayer and obeisance to God, when he starts recitation of the gospel, and when he tries to unite his consciousness with God's name, he has memories of long-forgotten things. This memory mindset does not allow him to offer prayers whole heartedly; his reading of the holy texts won't bear fruit.

Try to understand this fact by means of a parable. When Guru Nanak, the emperor of the world, while bathing in the Bein River plunged into water and came out after three days, he was repeating only one saying-

I am Neither a Hindu, Nor a Muslim.
My body and soul belong to Him, who is called God of Muslims and the lord of Hindus. SGGS Ji- 1136

[N30S1NGH 3,092]

The first thing vahiguroo ji created was shabad- ongkar and from that shabad- whole creation came along with maya made of rajo, tamo, sato attributes then from that maya this individual soul/jiv atma came - at that point under influence of maya/illusion - soul perceived itself separate from vahiguroo-atma-paratma, soul perceived itself as individual as Jiv atma as I-AM-NESS (EGO) as opposed to- perceiving itself as atma-paratma(one)/totally advait(non dual supreme consciousness) so once soul perceived itself as individual asI -AM-NESS (EGO)- karam was created (be it good or bad) under influence of I-AM-NESS (EGO) and from karam- countless human/animal/ reincarnations over and over again until this individual soul (jiv atma) realize its own real self- atma-paratma..!!!

[tuhintuhin 665]

Waheguru Ji,

Listen to Atam Gyan katha by Giani Thakur Singh ji Patiale Wale, it explains what bhai Daya Singh Ji explain on order of our guru

I had already...it's too complex...always end up with a headache,,,,,,

[savinderpalsingh 699]

Waheguru Ji , listen to it again and again thats what Giani Thakur Ji tell's init

[tuhintuhin 665]

so once soul perceived itself as individual asI -AM-NESS (EGO)- karam was created (be it good or bad) under influence of I-AM-NESS (EGO)

so this "ego" or "I m-ness" wasn't God's will...but we say destiny is already written.....whatever happens is in God's will ? So did we choose ego based on the level of intellect we got? so wasn't our karams already pre-written by God.......if so...how can we do them......at the very first stage....how did we choose materialism if we were pure consciouness and knew nothing good or bad?

[MokhamSingh 754]

Sangat ji......this thing is explained in various sikh books and discourses....but too hard to understand.

Mohkam Singh ji,

Could you please shed some light on this based on your knowledge and experience in simple words? When our spirit came into human body for the first time....how were the karam and lekh formed? Were we given options to choose good or bad? All spirits must be pure at that time.

The rest of sangat is welcomed to share their views as well.

Khalsa Ji

When we came into existence as humans our Karam began. The reason why we accumulated bad karam is because we gave into temptations somewhere along the line. The reason why we give into termptations is because we are under the influence of kaam/krodh/lobh/moh/ahankar. Some find the strength to resist temptations whilst others find it difficult to resist. Every bad karam is committed under agyanta {ignorance}. The creator makes us accumulate bad karam under agyanta and then in either this life or the next the creator removes the veil of ignorance and we acquire Gyan and as such we avoid temptations. According to Gurbani we are billions of years old. During this time our mann {mind} has accumulated the pollution of maya. Naam cleanses the old pollution and prevents new pollution from forming:

ਏ ਸਰੀਰਾ ਮੇਰਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਤੁਮ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਰਖੀ ਤਾ ਤੂ ਜਗ ਮਹਿ ਆਇਆ ॥

Ė sarīrā meri▫ā har ṯum mėh joṯ rakẖī ṯā ṯū jag mėh ā▫i▫ā.

O my body, the Lord infused His Light into you, and then you came into the world.

Waheguru.

A classic example is where no Fatwa could be applied to the chote Sahibzadeh because of their age but the Samanay waleh jalaad {henchmen} accepted the task in exchange for a pending law case to be dropped against them. The jalaad had the choice to decline but they gave into temptaion. They will recieve punishment for the deed they commited but somewhere along the line Waheguru will give them the opportunity to redeem themselves.

Some say that it is a cruel world. Guru Gobind Singh Ji salutes the creator who is raheem {compassionate} but also salutes the creator who can be kroor {merciless}. We are all pieces in Waheguru's game of chess.

May Waheguru have rahem {mercy} on us all.

Waheguru.

[tuhintuhin 665]

^^^ o waheguru ji thank you.......for explaining in simple words...............it was easy all doubts in the mind are erased now........and understood what N30SINGH ji explained above

so the choice is ours......whether to accept or decline good or bad thoughts before they can become actions and deeds / karam/lekha......and when our bad karams are erased and good deeds add up the "punn" finally and then with Guru ji's kirpa we re-unite with HIM......

Thank you everyone for taking time to help me out....

[N30S1NGH 3,092]

so this "ego" or "I m-ness" wasn't God's will...but we say destiny is already written.....whatever happens is in God's will ? So did we choose ego based on the level of intellect we got? so wasn't our karams already pre-written by God.......if so...how can we do them......at the very first stage....how did we choose materialism if we were pure consciouness and knew nothing good or bad?

very good and deep questions..i thank you for asking deep questions and giving chance for members to have deep vichar

so this "ego" or "I m-ness" wasn't God's will...but we say destiny is already written.....whatever happens is in God's will ?

It was part of hakum intertwined with free will..it was god's will intertwined with free will. God's will is hard to explain..i don't think we can 100% explain hakum theologically but at bhramgyan stage get anubhav of it..and thats pretty much it.

So did we choose ego based on the level of intellect we got?

EGO is perception as soon as one perceives they are 'I' separate from god they are in EGO...intellect itself is not a bad thing as bibek is connected with intellect and same intellect/bibek is used to do self-reflection at stages of spirituality....sheath of intellect is an hindrance where one individual consciousnesses cannot get pass from sheath of intellect (vigyan may kosh) towards supreme consciousness- real self- vahiguroo-atma-paratma.

so wasn't our karams already pre-written by God.......if so...how can we do them......at the very first stage....how did we choose materialism if we were pure consciouness and knew nothing good or bad?

Karams are pre-written by Vahiguroo...at the very first stage upon creation- this consciouness under influence of maya and free will- perceives itself as "I-amness" turn itself to individual consciousness , hence goes through process of karam (be it good or bad) under I-amness/ignorance and creates web of trap or more sheats (panj kosh, antish karan-man, chit, budh, ahankar), this world illusionary image for itself.

[tuhintuhin 665]

so like parents give some freedom to their children...let's say some girl/boy going to hostel.....parents trusted her/him, provided with all the requirements.....and it's upto the child now....how he uses this freedom.......

....the child can get into bad company like smoking etc....or he can keep his aim in mind and remain uneffected by the outer environment........

Parents if come to know about his bad doings will try to explain him the consequences of the wrong company, but at the end it's upto the child if he listens to them or not.......but this might happen as well that parents decide to get him out of the hostel and put him in local school where he might mend his ways..........it might hurt the child at first for not having fun....but in the long run it'll benefit him.....

same like we all have "Bani" to show us the right path....but it's upto us if we follow it or not........if not we are choosing to make bad karams.......but still parents don't disown that child...love him....same way in the end Guru ji will or are helping us to get out of the "maya"

[tuhintuhin 665]

so in terms of pre-written karams........we have the option or free will to change them based on the level of "bibek" Guru ji bless us......

for eg...like when we put charan dhoorh (with faith of course)on our forehead, our good karams emerges..or when some mahapurkh place their hand over our head...the bad karams can vanish,,....

got it....I know a gursikh woman (very very close)...very highly spiritual.......used to do a mahapurkh ji's sangat...somehow someone told her that she has to get marry based on her palmistry.....she went to mahapurkh ji in bairaag...mahapurkh ji, daya de ghar cha aaye, with one finger of his hand erased the line on her hand.....and she's enjoying her spiritual life to the fullest today..........

also another example from history....there were two spiritual singhs father and son.....captured by mughals...jailed them seperately...told the father that his son is ready to become muslim.......and asked him for his last wish....the father said I want to meet my son......when father saaw son's forhead, he realized due to some previous karam he will have to become muslim for one time......the father rubbed the thumb of his foot on his son's forhead and asked mughals.....try turning him to muslim now.......and of course they coudn't and Singh became shaheeds without having any "kalank" on their names ......may be someone can get the names of the singhs...may be Bhai Subheg Singh and Bhai Shahbaz Singh - source Giani Thakur Singh's katha....

[singh598 471]

karm (action) is three fold mental, physical and in words spoken. Every action has a reaction this is part of the natural world we live in, for example a word spoken continues till eternity floating in space(science has proven this).

Similarly this same action has an effect on our consciousness/mindset known in Gurbani as man. If you choose positive action you reap positive reward, if you chose to regularly use violence and swear a lot and think mentally "man i want kill that guy," or "bwoy that girl is sexy" you will accumulate negativity in your mind which will also effect your body and your speech.

In terms of when God first created humans and the planet earth we were free from previous debt of karms but we still had a mind and a body which are tools given to us and we still had the ability to make decisions based on the understanding of oneself (ego) hence we forgot about our true spiritual jeev atma and became engrossed in worldly affairs and slowly evolved as a civilization that way. Not realizing God we got stuck and so constantly transmigrate.. If we have a good life we might get to heaven or to a different portal but you ghet kicked out from their in due course of time..if you have acquired more bad karams you go into life of animals etc. If you attain self realization such a person is one with God and has all the power that God has there is no difference between him and you.

God has destined our fate already before we are born, this is based on our previous karams.

Gurbani should really be studied carefully with full concentration it is amazing but the difficulty is that is a not an essay or forum thread it is written in poetry and all the gems of knowledge are scattered about within the Guru Granth Sahib. For example this topic is discussed in Gurbani but one point will be written in Jap Ji another might be in Sri Raag, then another in Sukhmani Sahib and then maybe one more in the final saloks, so in this manner you have to do the research yourself. Its a constant lifelong process - thats why Guru Granth Sahib states aiyo sunan paran ko banee - You have attained this body, listen and read Gurbani

[tuhintuhin 665]

^^thank you waheguru ji

[luckysingh99 1,190]

Sangat ji......this thing is explained in various sikh books and discourses....but too hard to understand.

Mohkam Singh ji,

Could you please shed some light on this based on your knowledge and experience in simple words? When our spirit came into human body for the first time....how were the karam and lekh formed? Were we given options to choose good or bad? All spirits must be pure at that time.

The rest of sangat is welcomed to share their views as well.

The question is-

How did we start of with a pure consciousness and then came the distress and bad karams..etc...????

This was actually a question that the yogis and sadhus asked Guru Nanak Ji in sidh ghost near the end of the bani.

Guru ji's answer was simply -HAUMAI.

Since before creation of the universe, God was just manifest within himself.

There was nothing else except this PURE consciousness that was in existence.

Then when the universe was created a duality was formed in the form of HAUMAI.

This HAUMAI that we experience is what causes the dukh/sukh bad/good dualities that exist within this creation.

To burn the haumai with the name of Guru's shabad is the ony way that one can start to eradicate this duality.

What happens then ????

Well, then the person starts to see and accept no duality and becomes more submerged within the supreme pure consciousness.

Thus the person does not experience dualities of sukh/dukh, good/bad....etc... and all these events of sukh/dukh are responded to equally as Waheguru's divine will.

THIS IS WHEN A PERSON IS GURMUKH.

Guru ji tells us that we shouldn't waste time and effort worrying about reasons for dukh/sukh or sufferings in this life due to past karma..etc...

But we should worry about trying to become Gurmukh.

Then, once you are gurmukh, you can rise above any strangleholds and weights of karma.

Thus, for the gurmukh, karma and lekh all CEASE TO EXIST.

Our Guru's didn't endure any sukh/dukh due to karmas and they didn't once blame the lekh.

But they SUBMITTED to the DIVINE WILL and they accepted HUKAM as being the DOER of ALL things.

No karma, no lekh, no destiny for the gurmukh... just complete submission to His HUKAM.