How to tackle jaath-paath discrimination in Matrimonials?

[UKLondonSikh]

It is the responsibility of all of us who have love for our religion to get together and force the Gurdwara committees to ban the use of caste based matrimonial listings at Gurudwaras.

I'm glad you agree brother. I was disappointed and sad to note that sadly the phenomenon of separate Gurdwaray has reached New Zealand as well. With the smaller Sangat you guys have other there compared to the UK or Canada one would have assumed that at least NZ would be spared from this madness - but it's up to folks like yourself to tackle this in the best ways you can.

[JSinghnz]

I'm glad you agree brother. I was disappointed and sad to note that sadly the phenomenon of separate Gurdwaray has reached New Zealand as well. With the smaller Sangat you guys have other there compared to the UK or Canada one would have assumed that at least NZ would be spared from this madness - but it's up to folks like yourself to tackle this in the best ways you can.

What do you assume " that sadly the phenomenon of separate Gurdwaray has reached New Zealand as well."

There is no such thing so far in New Zealand with the Grace of Waheguru.

[UKLondonSikh]

What do you assume " that sadly the phenomenon of separate Gurdwaray has reached New Zealand as well."

There is no such thing so far in New Zealand with the Grace of Waheguru.

Brother, I was referring to the Gurdwaray at Hastings and Bombay Hills near Auckland :-(

[chatanga]

We also need to make it more extensively known that Mata Gujri Ji, the wife of Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji Maharaj and Mother of Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj, was of Gujjar descent - thereby proving that our Guru's did not marry according to the Hindu and Muslim caste rules that surrounded them, as each and every one of our Guru's flatly rejected any biraderi appelation ascribed them by the Mughals and other anti-Sikh scribes working for the Muslim Empire.

Bhaji was Mata Ji called Gujri (shepherd) because she was of Gujjar caste, or was her name just coincidental that it was the same as her caste?

[chatanga]

ok bhaji since you havent answered for one reason or another, may the members here vent thier feelings on if Mata Gujari was called Gujari because she was of Gujjar descent, was it decent to call her by her caste name?

eg what if she was tarkhan? then would Mata tarkahni be appropriate?

what if she was a choorhi? would mata choorhi be appropriate?

[UKLondonSikh]

Bhaji was Mata Ji called Gujri (shepherd) because she was of Gujjar caste, or was her name just coincidental that it was the same as her caste?

UK = Paji sorry for the delayed reply. Not on here too often I'm afraid. Mata Gujri Ji's proper name was Mata Gujjar Kaur and yes it was a reference to her ancestry as Mata Ji ancestors were one of the brave members of that community that did not convert to Islam as the Mughals were very effective at brutalising the Gujjars hard enough to convert the vast majority of that community in Punjab and Kashmir into Muslims. Gujjar does not actually mean shepherd though many Muslim Gujjars in East Punjab are indeed goat herders. Gujjar is actually a (tribal) Qaum. Kind of like the word Jatt does not mean farmer but is actually the name of a tribal ancestry. It very much hurts our Gujjar enemies from Pakistan and Dehli (who were very much involved with their Muslim Jatt and Hindu Jatt brothers in butchering innocent Sikhs 1947+1984) as to how Mata Gujri Ji's ancestry destroys the lies of our enemies about who our Guru's married and were descended from.

ok bhaji since you havent answered for one reason or another, may the members here vent thier feelings on if Mata Gujari was called Gujari because she was of Gujjar descent, was it decent to call her by her caste name?

eg what if she was tarkhan? then would Mata tarkahni be appropriate?

what if she was a choorhi? would mata choorhi be appropriate?

UK = I think if Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji Maharaj accepted Mata Gujri Ji's name as Mata Gujjar Kaur and obviously so did Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj then I don't think we should object as by marrying across so-called Hindu+Muslim caste boundaries Mata Gujri Ji proved she was not loyal to her Gujjar lineage but to the Sikh Panth in its fight to ensure Justice and Sarbat dha Bhall for all.

UK = Tarkhan refers to an occupation (as opposed to a tribe) so it might be a stretch to name a child on the basis of an occupation they have yet to follow. We should recall that 90% of the Ramgarhia Misl's Khalsa warriors did not follow the same noble profession as Bhai Lalo Ji. However, the descendents of carpenters commanding an army of erstwhile Jatts, Brahmins, Rajputs, Khatri's etc, etc was laughed upon by our Muslim+Hindu enemies who despised Bhai Lalo Ji on the basis of his occupation alone.

UK = Similarly, "chura" does not refer to a tribe. It merely refers to those great tribes who joined mainstream Indian society last and were thus forced by the racist Muslim+Hindu casteists into the most degrading of work as a result. We all know that the bravest of the brave included Bhai Jaita Ji and Guru Sahib stated that "Ranghreta Guru Ke Beta". It's a real shame that Indira and her casteist Jatt friends succeeded in creating a Balmiki identity in the last 30 years in order to weaken the demographics of the Panth and play divide and rule because of how they fear the revolutionary capability of the Sikh Panth. We can only combat the effect through parchaar and pyaar.

[chatanga]

Thanks bhaji, i was just waiting for your answer. This is the first timer i have ever heard this.

I dont think its true. None of the Guru's married outside their caste group or varan. There is nothing to suggest she was a gujjar other than idle speculation.

What makes you beleive this is true?

Can i ask have you been getting your info from siki-wiki? Because they have the same thing written there.

[garch]

Is it possible to be anti-castist but then want ur child to marry someone of the same social group because you would have more in common with the in laws family?

I believe it is (obviously you wouldn't go ahead n marry ur child just because there from similar social background you would look at many additional traits before someone makes the point).

Discrimination at work/against peers/communities etc is totally different and I don't believe the issues should be lumped together.

In fact I look at is as social groups not as higher lower castes because I don't get how the hierarchy would work in this day and age where the majority of people have a good chance to work themselves out of a poorer financial group.

At the same time do I think its issue if a turkaan marries a saini? No I dont.

People just jumping on the bandwagon, just my 2 rupees worth!

Wjkkwjkff

[UKLondonSikh]

Chatanga = None of the Guru's married outside their caste group or varan. There is nothing to suggest she was a gujjar other than idle speculation.

What makes you beleive this is true?

Can i ask have you been getting your info from siki-wiki? Because they have the same thing written there.

UK = Paji this is what our enemies want you to believe. As it destroys their perpetual lies against our Guru's supposedly marrying according to the Hindu+Muslim caste rules surrounding them. Furthermore, there are historians who state that even prior to Mata Gujjar Kaur ... anti-Sikh authors in the employ of the Mughals deliberately stated non-Khatri spouses as being Khatri as they feared the revolution that Sikhi would bring upon the Islamic Empire if we as a Panth were to fully unite. First these anti-Sikh authors in the employ of the Mughals doctor the history of our Guru's ... then they claim Sikhi is a Punjabi faith (our Panj Pyaaray destroy that myth completely) ... then these anti-Sikh authors claim the Sikh faith to be a Jatt religion (despite 80% of Jatts being Muslim+Hindu and Muslim Jatts and Hindu Jatts being at the forefront of butchering our Sikh community in 1947+1984) .... and the 2011 caste census likely to show that those of Jatt tribal ancestry are actually less than 50% of the Panth's demographic strength. Paji, honestly don't believe these wretched history books written by Mughal sychophants.

Is it possible to be anti-castist but then want ur child to marry someone of the same social group because you would have more in common with the in laws family?

I believe it is (obviously you wouldn't go ahead n marry ur child just because there from similar social background you would look at many additional traits before someone makes the point).

Discrimination at work/against peers/communities etc is totally different and I don't believe the issues should be lumped together.

In fact I look at is as social groups not as higher lower castes because I don't get how the hierarchy would work in this day and age where the majority of people have a good chance to work themselves out of a poorer financial group.

At the same time do I think its issue if a turkaan marries a saini? No I dont.

People just jumping on the bandwagon, just my 2 rupees worth!

Wjkkwjkff

UK = Garch Paji, prior to this, nine times out of ten I've usually agreed with your posts. On this matter I have to strongly disagree with you. The answer to your question is no ... it's not possible to claim to be anti-caste (as Sikhi/Gurmat advises us to be) and then insist or prefer your daughter to marry into the same biraderi so that society can see you've moved married her into the same social standing. That's a hollow excuse to perpetuate the Hindu+Muslim caste system as advised in Hinduism via Manu Smritri and obviously Prophet Muhammad was clear cut that noble parental ancestry (ie so-called high or low caste) is one of the most important issues to consider in who to marry. Vasakhi 1699 clearly shows that societal standing is of no importance. We all know who was the higher of Bhai Lalo and Malik Bhago. Who was the higher of some cowardly Muslim from the elite Mughal caste or Bhai Jaita Ji? Why did the Muslims spit at the Sikhs for Shaheed Baba Sangat Singh Ji being appointed the leader of our Sikh Fauj due to his parents working with leather or because our Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj contains mere words from a "Chamar" who according to them was not as high as the Qureshi caste. There should be no social grouping divisions amongst the Panth and no bakhre bakhre Gurdwaray. The fastest way to get to that vision of Begumpura is by encouraging marriages across social boundaries ... rather than encouraging it's continuation till the point that we are in a minority in Punjb itself ... which if we don't end jaath-paath discrimination in matrimonials asap could occur in less than 8years from now in the 2021 Punjab census.

[chatanga]

UK = Paji this is what our enemies want you to believe.

im sorry bhaji, but you have an over-active imagination if you beleive that.