Afspa - J&k

[Jonny101]

Giving land for peace is never a good idea especially if the intention of the enemy is to islamize the entire region piece by piece. Do you really want to give islamists more operating room? How about strategically or militarily? Is it wise to have your enemy even closer to the hinterland and above you now? How about the water supply? How about the religious sites? Imagine giving somebody that wants to kill you a piece of land in your backyard. Not wise.

The same case can be made for the Siachen Glacier. Its not the glacier thats important but the presence of the IA prevents a chinese pakistani linkup in that region. In an event of a war the IA will have to fight uphill if that region is given up.

I would agree with you if it was about all of J&K state. But Kashmir Valley itself is where all the militant Islamic problems are. Look at this Map.

Look how small Kashmir Valley is(in the red coloured line). That's like only 10% of whole of Jammu and Kashmir state's land mass yet 100% of all the problems of the state are located there. Giving up such a tiny peace of land will not make a noticeable difference to India's map, but it will make a huge impact on India's security.

[Hindustani]

Your logic is flawed. You want to give up land now because something may or may not happen in the future. There are other problems with your solution. Certain segments of the Kashmir Valley are staunchly pro-indian (shia) and hate pakistani sponsored sunnism. These shias provide vital intelligence to the IA like they did in Kargil and this past week on the LOC. They also make up a sizeable portion of the police form and territorial army.

The Dogras did massacre vast numbers of moslems. These moslems fled to places like Mirpur from where we get the Mirpuri muslims of the UK. The ones behind much of the anti sikh hindu sentiment.

The Americans are leaving in 2014 but just the ground troops. The intelligence network and special forces will still be around. In place of the ground troops are the much more lethal drones that are becoming a nightmare for the Taliban in Afghanistan. The Americans will run the war sitting in their offices in Washington at the fraction of the cost without risking soldiers.

[Jonny101]

Your logic is flawed. You want to give up land now because something may or may not happen in the future. There are other problems with your solution. Certain segments of the Kashmir Valley are staunchly pro-indian (shia) and hate pakistani sponsored sunnism. These shias provide vital intelligence to the IA like they did in Kargil and this past week on the LOC. They also make up a sizeable portion of the police form and territorial army.

The Dogras did massacre vast numbers of moslems. These moslems fled to places like Mirpur from where we get the Mirpuri muslims of the UK. The ones behind much of the anti sikh hindu sentiment.

The Americans are leaving in 2014 but just the ground troops. The intelligence network and special forces will still be around. In place of the ground troops are the much more lethal drones that are becoming a nightmare for the Taliban in Afghanistan. The Americans will run the war sitting in their offices in Washington at the fraction of the cost without risking soldiers.

But fact remains that the Kashmiri Muslims are overwhelmingly anti India and very pro Pakistan. So much so that they celebrate every time Pakistani cricket team beats the Indian cricket team.

The massacre of Muslims in J&K state in 1947 is just an myth and propaganda spread by the Pakistanis in order to justify Kashmir being part of Pakistan. If 250,000 Muslims had been killed in 1947 then why would Kashmiri Muslims under the leadership of the Muslim PM of J&K princely state pressure the Hindu Raja to merge with Hindu India instead of the Islamic state of Pakistan? It just doesn't make sense.

At that time, the Kashmiri Muslims were not being persecuted or killed by anyone. This was not even the case in 1965 when the Pakistanis sent infiltrators to Kashmir hoping for a Muslim uprising, but instead the Kashmiris helped the Indian army by alerting them of the movement of Pakistanis on their land. Real trouble started in the mid to late 80s and that also has a direct link to Zia and the Afghan uprising in Afghanistan from where many Islamic militants began to infiltrate Kashmir, drawing parallels between the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan to the Indian occupation of Kashmir. When militancy started, the Indian forces also began to crack down hard often violating human rights and this in turn inspired more youth in Kashmir and in Pakistan to become militants. It was a vicious cycle.

And it's not the Taliban who are having nightmares rather it's the Americans and their NATO allies who are having sleepless nights. They tried everything in their arsenal with the latest weaponry yet they could not defeat the Pathans lightly armed with an AK47 and who are as advanced as the caveman. The Americans are retreating but like the soviets did before them, they will leave some military advisers. But eventually the Taliban will take over after a brief civil war.

[Hindustani]

But fact remains that the Kashmiri Muslims are overwhelmingly anti India and very pro Pakistan. So much so that they celebrate every time Pakistani cricket team beats the Indian cricket team.

The massacre of Muslims in J&K state in 1947 is just an myth and propaganda spread by the Pakistanis in order to justify Kashmir being part of Pakistan. If 250,000 Muslims had been killed in 1947 then why would Kashmiri Muslims under the leadership of the Muslim PM of J&K princely state pressure the Hindu Raja to merge with Hindu India instead of the Islamic state of Pakistan? It just doesn't make sense.

At that time, the Kashmiri Muslims were not being persecuted or killed by anyone. This was not even the case in 1965 when the Pakistanis sent infiltrators to Kashmir hoping for a Muslim uprising, but instead the Kashmiris helped the Indian army by alerting them of the movement of Pakistanis on their land. Real trouble started in the mid to late 80s and that also has a direct link to Zia and the Afghan uprising in Afghanistan from where many Islamic militants began to infiltrate Kashmir, drawing parallels between the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan to the Indian occupation of Kashmir. When militancy started, the Indian forces also began to crack down hard often violating human rights and this in turn inspired more youth in Kashmir and in Pakistan to become militants. It was a vicious cycle.

And it's not the Taliban who are having nightmares rather it's the Americans and their NATO allies who are having sleepless nights. They tried everything in their arsenal with the latest weaponry yet they could not defeat the Pathans lightly armed with an AK47 and who are as advanced as the caveman. The Americans are retreating but like the soviets did before them, they will leave some military advisers. But eventually the Taliban will take over after a brief civil war.

Its a little more than "lightly armed with an AK47" because other countries provide these Taliban with intelligence weapons, money, logistical support and safe havens. Be certain that Iran, United States, India, Russia have their own groups that will challenge the Taliban.

If the Kashmiris are so anti-india they wouldnt be joining the police force and army in such numbers. The voter turnout during elections in the state are huge. I think that the Kashmiris have no intention of joining Pakistan but use that as bait to get further privileges from the Indian government. They got used to the free everything. Something that Modi is threatning to turn off. I am reading about voter turnout as high as 80% even in terrorist infested areas. Despite calls for a boycott from Gillani..

[Jonny101]

Its a little more than "lightly armed with an AK47" because other countries provide these Taliban with intelligence weapons, money, logistical support and safe havens. Be certain that Iran, United States, India, Russia have their own groups that will challenge the Taliban.

Bhai, US and before them the Russians and before them Great Britain(when she was a Super Power) have tried to break the will of the Afghans, but have only failed miserably everytime. When these superpowers could not succeed with their troops on ground then what can India do to prevent Taliban victory? Just recently the Afghans requested the Indians for weapons, but India refused because even India has a fear on the back of their head that if the Taliban win all those weapons will fall into their hands

If the Kashmiris are so anti-india they wouldnt be joining the police force and army in such numbers. The voter turnout during elections in the state are huge. I think that the Kashmiris have no intention of joining Pakistan but use that as bait to get further privileges from the Indian government. They got used to the free everything. Something that Modi is threatning to turn off. I am reading about voter turnout as high as 80% even in terrorist infested areas. Despite calls for a boycott from Gillani..

If you think the Kashmiris are pro India then you havn't been reading news. Kashmiris hate India. They are as pro Pakistan as Pakistanis are. Sadly thing about the militant movement of Kashmir is that, most of the militants of Kashmir are not even Kashmiri! they are Pakistanis. But the Indian security forces begin to violate the human rights of the Kashmiris. Doing things like raping their women, beatings, fake encounters are common. This type of stuff just adds more resentment amongst the population and in turn is a breeding ground for militancy.

[acsap]

We should let India waste its resources on Kashmir. As a Sikh, I care less if Kashmir stays with India or not. However, as a Sikh I do care about human rights that are being trampled by both India and Pakistan. Also, I know lots of Indian soldiers are Sikhs, and I don't want them to lose their lives on Kashmir or another part of India. There are some Sikh villages in Kashmir, and I know they will be better off in India than Pakistan, not by much though (I still remember how Indian Army Killed Sikh villagers in Kashmir during Clinton’s visit to India). Maybe somebody can explain to be me why as a Sikh, I should worry about India or India's problems with Kashmir.

[Mehtab Singh]

Maybe somebody can explain to be me why as a Sikh, I should worry about India or India's problems with Kashmir.

Because more than 20 million of your fellow Sikhs live there, and their current suffering will only rise up if India as a country suffers the demon of terrorism, especially considering the fact that over 90% of those over 20 million live in Punjab, right next to Kashmir.

However, if you choose not to bother, that is also your choice and its fine. Its one thing to not be bothered, its another to wish harm on someone. Wishing harm on India would mean wishing harm on all Sikhs there and also on all those poor and innocents as well who have no part in whatever Indian government has done to Sikhs.

[acsap]

I am not wishing harm on anyone, but I don’t want Sikhs to fight India’s battle. Unfortunately, lots of Indian Soldiers are Sikhs, so I understand the impact Kashmir is having on these Sikhs. I don’t want to hijack this topic, but I am tired of hearing that Indian government was responsible for atrocities on Sikhs. Most of the Sikhs in 1984 were killed by Hindu mobs (I am sure some Jains and Muslims also joined in). Everybody knew that Congress was responsible for Sikh genocide, and Congress is not going to do anything, but promote these Sikh killers. Hindus voted this Congress party into power in 1984 with more than 70% vote, and they did the same thing every election for these killers (e.g., Sajjan, Tytler, Bhagat, etc.), so Indian Government is responsible because that is what most Indians want. This being said, of course there are some very good Hindus in India, but they are small minuscule minority.

[Mehtab Singh]

The only religion in India these days is money. No other "official" religion rules it. If Hindus rule India, why have so many Hindus in south India joined Naxals and become atheists. Answer: They were poor and oppressed repeatedly. If its Brahmins, why no one gives a damn about Kashmiri Brahmins who have a five thousand year old culture in Kashmir and are infact one of the most ancient Hindus of India? Answer: They are a small and negligible vote bank.

I forgot where someone posted this recently, maybe I posted it. If you start doing a statistical analysis as to which religious community in India is economically progressive right now, I bet you will find that Sikhs (Punjab and outside Punjab) are doing much better than Hindus and Muslims of several poor states. Just this month Panjab University was ranked globally as higher than even IIT, India's evergreen academic pride. Other states fare really bad at education, except West Bengal and the south Indian states. So lets stop being alarmists.

Yes, we need justice for 1984 and all the human rights violations that followed. Yes, all right wing Hindu agencies have an anti-Sikh agenda. Yes, Indian government is not at all pro-Sikh. But why isn't Manmohan Singh bothered? Why isn't he raising a cry? How long will we play the same tune "ohhh he is a puppet", "ohhh he is not a true Sikh", "ohhhh he is Sonia's slave". Sorry, the deal is on the table. A Sikh PM of India is least bothered about the Sikhs. How long will we blame non-Sikhs for our miseries when one of our own leads the country and can't even be present when France bans the turban? Another example is the Badal family. Do they care about the drug menace in Punjab? Have they taken solid actions to curb it?

How many Sikhs did those demons Sajjan Kumar and Tytler kill? 10,000? And how many did demons like KP Gill and CM Beanta kill? Think again, Amnesty International's figures stand at a scary 275,000! How many Sikhs were killed by the Indian government before the June 1984 Battle of Amritsar? And how many were killed in that battle at the hands of Gen. Brar and Gen. Dyal? According to the late Ram Narayan Kumar is was around 8,000. Why didn't Brar and Dyal refuse to kill their fellow Sikhs? "ohhh he is a puppet", "ohhh he is not a true Sikh", "ohhhh he was Indira's slave". Well guess what, all this makes us look like the lowest level of idi0ts on this planet. You know why? Because it gives the impression that first Nehru fooled Master Tara Singh and Baldev Singh, then Indira fooled Brar and Dyal, then Sonia fooled Manmohan. So people take us for granted as fools, and not ordinary fools but fools who remain fools generation after generation after generation. The only one who was wise and blessed was called a terrorist by many Sikhs themselves, just because he asked them to be armed and prepared to protect their life and honor. And all our folks did was ignore him and call him a terrorist, something the Hindus we hate so much do to this day.

We do NOT need enemies from outside. We have abundant of them in our own home, and we are so stupid that all we can say is "ohhhhh he is not one of us". Wake up! Stop being alarmists living in denial. Admit that we use josh before hosh and promise yourself that from now on you will use hosh more than josh. If not, then lets remain fools forever and whine each time someone calls us one.

I repeat, the only religion in India these days is money. No other "official" religion rules it. Whether the person wears a janeu, or a skull cap, or a turban. Most of them follow the same religion.

Baap bada na bhaiyya, sabse bada rupaiyya.

[acsap]

You are preaching to the choir here, Mehtab Singh. I don’t disagree on any of the things you mentioned, and I don’t think any Sikh will. However, I will mention that KPS, Brar, Dyal, other so called Sikhs are higher on most Sikhs hate/hit list than Hindus like Tytler and Sajjan.

This discussion started because I want India to keep on losing resources on Kashmir (in other words it will hurt their religion Money). It will impact Sikh Soldiers and Sikhs in Kashmir, and that is hard for me to reconcile. However, I am all for whatever will make India weaker. Last time Sikhs came to power because of wars between Delhi rulers and Afghans and other small wars. Therefore, anything that will make India weaker (or make them lose money) is beneficial for Sikhs. In those old days, there was a price on each Sikh head, and I think war with Kashmir is not going to make Sikhs that miserable. In no way I am saying that we support Pakistan, all I am saying is that it is ok for both of them to keep on fighting this stupid war as long as it makes these countries weaker.