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Sikh Issues Vs Hindu Thought


Singh, Mahan
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Nalwa Ji, you have once again spoken the painful, sharp and bitter truth.

I myself was ashamed that I knew so much about the all-out genocide of the Sikh Nation in 1984 and the resultant ongoing struggle for freedom from despotic India... yet so little about the unimaginably horrendously painful 20-year-long struggle for a basic Punjabi Suba from just one generation before!

Yes - just for a basic Punjabi Suba!

A Punjabi speaking state in line with the linguistic reorganisation of all state boundaries throughout India in the 1950's - not even full independence from despotic India!

The unnecessarily arduously long struggle for Punjabi Suba was simply a demand that the central government honour its own law and implement the local language (in this case, Panjaabi) as the state language - just like it did throughout 95% of India in the 1950's.

The same Panjaabi language that is spoken by a majority of Muslims and Hindus! Not Sikhs alone.

The struggle for Punjabi Suba had nothing to do with Sikhs or Sikhi.

Yet, that is still how communal, biased, terrorist India portrays it to this day.

When even the secular demand for Punjabi Suba is portrayed as a secessionist demand and conspired against in a mass campaign of anti-Sikh violence and hatred by the majority Hindus, what hope is there of Sikhs ever breathing the fresh air of independence, that they were originally promised, in a terrorist Hindu ruled India???

The stiff opposition to Punjabi Suba demonstrates fully that India truly is The World's Largest Hypocrisy.

India had no problem granting state language status to languages like Marathi, Tamil, Hindi, Gujarati, Telugu.

But when it came to Panjaabi, oh no... We can't do anything that the Sikhs might want to happen or benefit from, oh no...

And so, Punjab was the only state in India that did not receive its local language as the state language.

All just to spite the Sikhs.

In fact; it was the Traitor Punjabi Hindus who went all out to oppose Punjabi Suba and even disowned the Panjabi language that they spoke in their own homes just to spite the Sikhs.

Yet when Sikhs rightly demand independence now that the 300,000+ of our Quam killed in cold blood by Terrorist India has proven that there is absolutely no chance that we can ever exist in peace in a Hindu ruled nation - these same separatist, racist and communal North Indian Hindus call us communal.

The irony is lost on those animals.

All in return for the generosity, kindness, charity and patriotism of the Sikh Nation in first freeing India from British rule, then securing Hindu rule by single handedly defeating Pakistan in every war that India has faced, when the non-Sikh regiments ran away and retreated from the battlefield, and then feeding and ensuring the food security of the entire poor hungry nation of India by turning it from a food deficit to a food surplus nation.

Thanks a lot, to my Hindu "brothers".

Dont want to be the devils advocate but millions of sikhs, hindus and moslems have died for India. Not just the sikhs. The 1857 mutiny probably killed at least half a million muslims and hindus alone. And your comment about "single handedly defeating pakistan in every war" is once again just hyperbole. The non-sikh regiments never ran away from the battlefield. Its these kinds of musings that force educated people to either not respond or totally discredit sikh intellectuals.

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Dont want to be the devils advocate but millions of sikhs, hindus and moslems have died for India. Not just the sikhs. The 1857 mutiny probably killed at least half a million muslims and hindus alone. And your comment about "single handedly defeating pakistan in every war" is once again just hyperbole. The non-sikh regiments never ran away from the battlefield. Its these kinds of musings that force educated people to either not respond or totally discredit sikh intellectuals.

I normally reply to posts respectfully but the comment dismissing my post, out of hand, as uneducated "hyperbole", is simply untrue, and quite unfair, Amandeep1378.

Let's answer the "points" you've made; :biggrin2:

"Dont want to be the devils advocate but millions of sikhs, hindus and moslems have died for India. Not just the sikhs."

Don't be silly Amandeep1378.

1. No Sikh, has ever, to date, stated that "just the sikhs" died to free British "India".

On the other hand, plenty of Hindus have, altogether completely denied the historic fact that Sikhs have often solely undertaken actions that completely closed the door to Islamic invasions into Bharat from the north west and significantly destroyed foreign rule from Bharat.

As you seem perfectly capable of reading, I should ask you to point out where or when I have ever stated it was "just the sikhs."

2. I would ask someone to pass you the statistics for the percentage of sacrifices in the Indian freedom struggle made by each of the religions you have mentioned (sikhs, hindus and moslems), but as you appear to be capable of quoting statistics that don't exist, you should also verify those that do.

Even non-biased Hindus and Muslims admit that without the Sikhs, freedom from British rule would have been a forlorn struggle.

The small minority of Sikhs contributed to the freedom struggle in numbers far beyond their numerical representation in the population.

The figures below are a small selection of official figures provided by the Congress Party itself. They fail to take into account many "unofficial" independence movements that were wholly or almost exclusively the domain of Sikhs.

Nevertheless, they are sufficient to explain to an ignoramus the extent of the Sikh domination of the freedom struggle.

Out of the 2646 "Indians" deported for life to the Andaman Islands (where the British exiled political and hardened criminals); 2147 (80%) were Sikhs.

Out of the 127 "Indians" sent to the gallows; 92 (80%) were Sikhs.

Out of the 2125 "Indians" killed in the atrocities by the British; 1550 (73%) were Sikhs.

At Jalliawalla Bagh, out of the 1302 men, women and children slaughtered; 799 (61%) were Sikhs.

Out of the 121 persons executed during the freedom struggle; 73 (60%) were Sikhs.

Furthermore, In the Indian Liberation Army, out of the 20,000 ranks and officers; 12,000 (60%) were Sikhs.

In total, all numerical sources indicate that of the total number of actual actively willing human sacrifices (deaths) for the freedom of British "India", Sikhs contributed between 75 and 90% of the total.

That is not to count those Sikhs who formed the overwhelming majority of all recognised organised freedom movements (Ghadar Lehar, Babbar Akali Lehar, Kuka Lehar, Komagata Maru, Keys Agitation, Quit India, Baj Baj Ghat, Indian National Army, Satyagrahas) that may have lived.

I have not even included above the views of your own Hindu Congress leaders who admitted that "We are the bad sons of Mother India but Akali's are the good sons of India, who are fighting fearlessly for the freedom of our mother.

For a community that numbered less than 1.5% of the population of British "India", that is pretty f'n single handed.

3. It is your claim that "millions of sikhs, hindus and moslems have died for India" that is the most incredible.

Go and learn history my child. Millions of people of any religion, nor race, let alone the Sikhs (who form 75-90% of those killed) have not died for the freedom of British "India".

"The 1857 mutiny probably killed at least half a million muslims and hindus alone."

Besides the fact that now you are just being a fantasist, the 1857 "mutiny" was not a war of independence from British rule.

At least have the honour and shame to study the history, background, leaders and aims of the "mutiny" before you start to dribble the propaganda fed to you by your RSS bosses.

That too on a Sikh forum.

"And your comment about "single handedly defeating pakistan in every war" is once again just hyperbole. The non-sikh regiments never ran away from the battlefield."

Dear Amandeep, the most laughable thing about your dismission is that they did in fact run away.

Even non-biased Hindu observers are able to admit this.

What is it about you that is so adamant that you must not admit that Sikhs rescued you in your hour of need?

Take 1965.

Most of the Indian Army ran away. Yes - they retreated. The Pakistani Army occupied many Indian posts. It was only the small number of Sikhs led by Major Gen Gurbaksh Singh that stood up to the advancing Pakistani army long enough to give the IAF enough time to get it's planes ready. The rest, as they say, is history.

Be independent, and do your own research Amandeep. Don't depend on wikipedia or your RSS masters.

"Its these kinds of musings that force educated people to either not respond or totally discredit sikh intellectuals."

Next, you're going to deny my point about Sikhs feeding India.

I take it you're one of those "educated people" Amandeep? :lol2:

It's a good job I'm not looking for "credit" from ignoramuses then.

And neither is the Sikh Quam.

Goodbye.

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Dont want to be the devils advocate but millions of sikhs, hindus and moslems have died for India. Not just the sikhs. The 1857 mutiny probably killed at least half a million muslims and hindus alone. And your comment about "single handedly defeating pakistan in every war" is once again just hyperbole. The non-sikh regiments never ran away from the battlefield. Its these kinds of musings that force educated people to either not respond or totally discredit sikh intellectuals.

During the first Indo Pak war, my Phuphar was a soldier in the Patiala army and he would tell us how scared the retreating Hindu Dogra soldiers were of Pathans and it was solely the bravery of the aggressive Sikh soldiers that the Pathan tribals were beaten back. My relatives who live near the border of India and Pakistan saw Indo Pak wars first hand. They would tell me that during the 65 war, many Hindu soldiers would run in people houses asking for soap so they can eat it and get medically sick so they wouldn't have to fight. Indian army's situation was so deplorable that the high command had ordered Gen Harbaksh Singh to retreat all the way back to river beas. But as a Sikh, Gen Harbaksh Singh had to refuse this order because that would mean surrendering Sri Darbar Sahib to the Pakistanis which is unacceptable to a Sikh. So Sikhs in the army fought so aggressively that they turned Pakistan's victory into a defeat.

Just yesterday I was talking to an uncle jee who had just retired 2 year ago from the army and fought in the 1971 war, he was a young officer at the time. He told me that up until the 1980s, Sikhs overwhelmingly dominated the Indian army, but slowly there has been a policy to recruit less Sikhs into the army, especially in the mixed regiments and this became even more prevalent after thousands of Sikh soldiers had mutinied during operation bluestar when hearing of the Sikh massacre that had just occured at their holiest shrine. I've even met Pakistanis here in the west who have admitted to me that had it not been for the Sikh factor in the Indian army, the Pakistanis would never have lost against Hindus.

I would suggest you read the books called Punjabi Veer Parampra published by Punjabi University which is a detailed record of the decisive role SIkh soldiers played during the Indo pak wars

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I normally reply to posts respectfully but the comment dismissing my post, out of hand, as uneducated "hyperbole", is simply untrue, and quite unfair, Amandeep1378.

Let's answer the "points" you've made; :biggrin2:

Don't be silly Amandeep1378.

1. No Sikh, has ever, to date, stated that "just the sikhs" died to free British "India".

On the other hand, plenty of Hindus have, altogether completely denied the historic fact that Sikhs have often solely undertaken actions that completely closed the door to Islamic invasions into Bharat from the north west and significantly destroyed foreign rule from Bharat.

As you seem perfectly capable of reading, I should ask you to point out where or when I have ever stated it was "just the sikhs."

2. I would ask someone to pass you the statistics for the percentage of sacrifices in the Indian freedom struggle made by each of the religions you have mentioned (sikhs, hindus and moslems), but as you appear to be capable of quoting statistics that don't exist, you should also verify those that do.

Even non-biased Hindus and Muslims admit that without the Sikhs, freedom from British rule would have been a forlorn struggle.

The small minority of Sikhs contributed to the freedom struggle in numbers far beyond their numerical representation in the population.

The figures below are a small selection of official figures provided by the Congress Party itself. They fail to take into account many "unofficial" independence movements that were wholly or almost exclusively the domain of Sikhs.

Nevertheless, they are sufficient to explain to an ignoramus the extent of the Sikh domination of the freedom struggle.

Out of the 2646 "Indians" deported for life to the Andaman Islands (where the British exiled political and hardened criminals); 2147 (80%) were Sikhs.

Out of the 127 "Indians" sent to the gallows; 92 (80%) were Sikhs.

Out of the 2125 "Indians" killed in the atrocities by the British; 1550 (73%) were Sikhs.

At Jalliawalla Bagh, out of the 1302 men, women and children slaughtered; 799 (61%) were Sikhs.

Out of the 121 persons executed during the freedom struggle; 73 (60%) were Sikhs.

Furthermore, In the Indian Liberation Army, out of the 20,000 ranks and officers; 12,000 (60%) were Sikhs.

In total, all numerical sources indicate that of the total number of actual actively willing human sacrifices (deaths) for the freedom of British "India", Sikhs contributed between 75 and 90% of the total.

That is not to count those Sikhs who formed the overwhelming majority of all recognised organised freedom movements (Ghadar Lehar, Babbar Akali Lehar, Kuka Lehar, Komagata Maru, Keys Agitation, Quit India, Baj Baj Ghat, Indian National Army, Satyagrahas) that may have lived.

I have not even included above the views of your own Hindu Congress leaders who admitted that "We are the bad sons of Mother India but Akali's are the good sons of India, who are fighting fearlessly for the freedom of our mother.

For a community that numbered less than 1.5% of the population of British "India", that is pretty f'n single handed.

3. It is your claim that "millions of sikhs, hindus and moslems have died for India" that is the most incredible.

Go and learn history my child. Millions of people of any religion, nor race, let alone the Sikhs (who form 75-90% of those killed) have not died for the freedom of British "India".

Besides the fact that now you are just being a fantasist, the 1857 "mutiny" was not a war of independence from British rule.

At least have the honour and shame to study the history, background, leaders and aims of the "mutiny" before you start to dribble the propaganda fed to you by your RSS bosses.

That too on a Sikh forum.

Dear Amandeep, the most laughable thing about your dismission is that they did in fact run away.

Even non-biased Hindu observers are able to admit this.

What is it about you that is so adamant that you must not admit that Sikhs rescued you in your hour of need?

Take 1965.

Most of the Indian Army ran away. Yes - they retreated. The Pakistani Army occupied many Indian posts. It was only the small number of Sikhs led by Major Gen Gurbaksh Singh that stood up to the advancing Pakistani army long enough to give the IAF enough time to get it's planes ready. The rest, as they say, is history.

Be independent, and do your own research Amandeep. Don't depend on wikipedia or your RSS masters.

Next, you're going to deny my point about Sikhs feeding India.

I take it you're one of those "educated people" Amandeep? :lol2:

It's a good job I'm not looking for "credit" from ignoramuses then.

And neither is the Sikh Quam.

Goodbye.

Unfortunately, for you any talk of the independence struggle cannot be fully explored without talking about the 1857 Mutiny. As for your non-biased observers, perhaps you can cite them? And none of this my uncle told me this. Hence, most of your comments cannot be taken seriously.

Here is a little story for you. Lt. Arun Khetarpal knocks out 5 Pakistani tanks in the 1971 War and his Sikh commander admitting that Khetarpal was the bravest man he ever met.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2EtAltIBqQ

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And here is an interview of the man that killed Khetarpal from the Pakistani side. General Naser - apologizing to Khetarpals family.

http://creative.sulekha.com/2-lt-arun-khetarpal-pvc-recognition-of-valor-by-pakistani-commander-who-actually-killed-him_487498_blog

Brig ML Khetrapal father of 2/Lt Arun Khetrapal,PVC died recently. The story below is about the young Khetrapal and his father's journey to Pakistan many years after his son's gallant sacrifice..Read on!

My son goes to Sanawar, a school up in the Himalayas. It used to be a Military school (154 years old) and like any old school, Sanawar has its fair share of heroes amongst its old students. One such hero from that school that I want to write about is 2nd Lieutenant Arun Khetarpal, son of Brigadier M.L. Khetarpal. He was born on 14 October 1950, in Pune, Maharashtra. He was commissioned in the 17 Poona Horse on 13 June 1971, just a few months before the Indo-Pakistan 1971 war. The story of his heroism is as follows:

During the 1971 Indo-Pak War, the 47 Infantry Brigade, with the 17 Poona Horse under command, was ordered to establish a "bridge-head"(A military term for foothold) across the Basantar river in Shakargarh sector. The 47 Inf Bde completed the task by 2100 hours on December 15th.. It was now for the engineers to breach the Pakistani mine-fields and make a safe lane for the induction of the 17 Poona Horse in support of the bridge-head.

While the engineers were half way through their task, the Indian troops at the bridge-head reported alarming activity of the Pakistani armour. They requested immediate tank support. But the mine-field had been cleared only partially by that time. At this critical juncture, the 17 Poona Horse decided to push through the mine-field come what may. By first light on December 16th, the regiment established a link-up between the armour and the infantry at the bridge-head.

At 0800 hours, the Pakistanis made a counter-attack with an armoured regiment, under the cover of a smoke-screen. The target was the regimental pivot at Jarpal. As the Indians troops were heavily outnumbered, the Commander of 'B' Squadron requested reinforcement. At that time, 2nd Lt. Khetarpal was positioned close to the squadron with his troops in two tanks. He answered the call and moved out to face the Pakistani attack.


On the way, his troops came under fire from Pakistani strong points and recoilless gun nests, in the bridge-head zone. 2nd Lt. Khetarpal fiercely attacked these strong-points, over-ran Pakistani defences and captured many Pakistani soldiers and recoilless guns at gun point. During one of these attacks, the commander of his second tank was killed on the spot leaving him alone. But he continued attack on the Pakistani strongholds single-handed, until all the Pakistani positions were overwhelmed. He then raced to the 'B'Squadron position. By the time he reached there, the Pakistani tanks were on the retreat. He pursued and destroyed one of these tanks. The 'B' Squadron Commander could persuade him to fall back in line after
great difficulty.

The Pakistanis soon reformed for a second attack. This time they chose the sector held by 2nd Lt. Arun Khetarpal and two other Officers, for the main attack. The Pakistani employed a complete armoured squadron against these three tanks in order to achieve a breakthrough.

A fierce tank battle followed. As many as ten Pakistani tanks were destroyed and of these 2nd Lieutenant Khetarpal alone destroyed four... In the thick of the battle, two of the three Indian tanks became casualties-one was hit and another suffered mechanical failure.

The third tank, which was 2nd Lt. Khetarpal's tank, also received a shot and burst into flames. The Commander of the tank troops ordered 2nd Lt. Khetarpal to abandon the burning tank. But realising the useful role of his tank in preventing a breakthrough he communicated the following message to his Commander: "No Sir, I will not abandon my tank. My gun is still working and I will get these guys."

Then he set about destroying the remaining Pakistani tanks. The last Pakistani tank which he shot was barely 100 metres from his position. At this stage his tank received a second hit. The brave Officer met his death denying the Pakistani the intended breakthrough.

For his conspicuous gallantry in the face of the Pakistani, 2nd Lt. Arun Khetarpal was honoured with the highest wartime gallantry medal, the Param Vir Chakra, posthumously.

He was the youngest Indian to win this highest award. The Indo-Pakistan war of 1971, nearly 39 years ago is history for most of us.However a strange sequel was to follow for the Khetarpal family.

Many years later, India and Pakistan established 'people to people' contacts between both the nations. This was also known as 'Twin Track Diplomacy'.

Brigadier M.L. Khetarpal, father of 2nd Lt. Khetarpal started receiving messages that a certain Brigadier from the Pakistani army was keen to meet him. However since he did not know this particular Brigadier, Brigadier M.L. Khetarpal did not do anything to encourage the meeting.

In 2001, Brigadier M.L. Khetarpal, now 81 years old, felt a strong desire to visit his birthplace, at Sargodha, now in Pakistan. It was a wish that he thought that would never materialize, but when he voiced it to some friends engaged in the Twin Track Diplomacy, they arranged all his papers, visas, travel and staying arrangements in Pakistan so that he could go for the visit.

At Lahore airport, Brigadier M.L. Khetarpal was met by Brigadier Khawja Mohammad Naser, who took it upon himself to be Brigadier M.L. Khetarpal host and guide. Brigadier Naser really went out of way to ensure that Brigadier M..L. Khetarpal had a satisfying and nostalgic visit to his old house in Sargodha. Upon his return to Lahore he was once again the guest of Brigadier Naser for three days.

Brigadier M.L. Khetarpal was overwhelmed by the extreme kindness, deference, courtesy and respect bestowed upon him by Brigadier Naser, all the members of his family and his many servants.

As the countdown for the departure progressed, the bonds of friendship between the guests and the host grew stronger and stronger. However Brigadier Khetarpal felt that something was amiss but could not make out what it was. Was it the long silence that punctuated their animated conversation or was it the look of compassion in the eyes of the women in the family. He could not make out. However what was certain was that he would always remember the hospitality, warmth and affection of this Pakistani family who treated him as someone very very special.

Finally at the last night before Brigadier M.L.Khetarpal' s departure, Brigadier Naser said 'Sir there is something that I wanted to tell you for many years but I did not know how to get through to you. Finally fate has intervened and sent you to me as an honoured guest.

The last few days we have become close to one another and that has made my task even more difficult. It is regarding your son who is of course a national hero in India. However on that fateful day, your son and I were soldiers, unknown to one another, fighting for the
respect and safety of our respective countries. I regret to tell you that your son died in my hands. Arun's courage was exemplary and he moved his tank with fearless courage and daring, totally unconcerned about his safety. Tank casualties were very high till finally there were just two of us left facing one another. We both fired simultaneously. It was destined that I was to live and he was to die.


It is only later that I got to know how young he was and who he was. We are trained to fight and kill without mercy or remorse. We do in war what we have to without thinking too much about it. However we are humans too and sometimes war takes a personal turn and makes an impact on the inner self..

I had all along thought that I would ask your forgiveness, but in telling the story I realize that there is nothing to forgive. Instead I salute your son for what he did at such a young age and I salute you too, because I know how he grew into such a young man. In the end it is character and values that matter."
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Khetarpal was indeed a gifted soldier like all Paramvir Chakra winners. But this is not reflected of a general trend amongst Hindus. Sikhs on the other hand during a war like situation are collectively brave especially when facing Muslims or Pathans. There has been numerous cases of Sikhs making a last stand when a small group of Sikhs who know they will not win but still willingly face an enemy many times more numerous(last time this happened was during operation bluestar against the Indian army). This does not mean Hindus are cowards by nature.

Hindus during ancient times were brave. But living under slave like conditions nearly 800 years under Islamic rule will impact one's mentality. Muslims would humiliate Hindus, take their daughters and sisters right in front of them and the Hindus had to bitterly accept this. Sadly this is what has happened to Hindus. With the exception of the Marathas, the other Hindus have rarely faced Muslims on even terms and won. Sikhs are also mostly descendants of Hindus but some how when one takes Amrit and becomes a part of the Khalsa family your whole perception of things change. It is no coincident that Sikhs who form less than 2% of today's Indian population have given much more than their demographic share in the field of battle whether it is militarily or for the freedom struggle.

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"Unfortunately, for you any talk of the independence struggle cannot be fully explored without talking about the 1857 Mutiny. As for your non-biased observers, perhaps you can cite them? And none of this my uncle told me this. Hence, most of your comments cannot be taken seriously."

ACSAP: I hope you do know that the Sikhs (at least vast majority of them) fought against Hindus and Muslims during the 1857 mutiny; they sided with the British Raj. I hope you know the reason why Sikhs fought against the Hindus and Muslims. Otherwise read Shah Muhamad. During the Sikh Anglo war he wrote “Ajj Jang Hind Punjab the Hun lagga”.

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Khetarpal was indeed a gifted soldier like all Paramvir Chakra winners. But this is not reflected of a general trend amongst Hindus. Sikhs on the other hand during a war like situation are collectively brave especially when facing Muslims or Pathans. There has been numerous cases of Sikhs making a last stand when a small group of Sikhs who know they will not win but still willingly face an enemy many times more numerous(last time this happened was during operation bluestar against the Indian army). This does not mean Hindus are cowards by nature.

Hindus during ancient times were brave. But living under slave like conditions nearly 800 years under Islamic rule will impact one's mentality. Muslims would humiliate Hindus, take their daughters and sisters right in front of them and the Hindus had to bitterly accept this. Sadly this is what has happened to Hindus. With the exception of the Marathas, the other Hindus have rarely faced Muslims on even terms and won. Sikhs are also mostly descendants of Hindus but some how when one takes Amrit and becomes a part of the Khalsa family your whole perception of things change. It is no coincident that Sikhs who form less than 2% of today's Indian population have given much more than their demographic share in the field of battle whether it is militarily or for the freedom struggle.

If I have offended anyone than I apologize. But you cannot cherry pick history. The Marattas did not happen out of a vacuum. Shivaji was inspired by Rana Pratap Singh, Hemu and the awesome defence of South India by the VijayNagar Empire. Rana Pratap in turn was inspired by his own ancestors Rana Sanga, Rana Hammir, Kumba and of course Bappa Rawal. But I digress.

The moslems did abduct hindu women, along with sikh women, christian women, jewish women etc. But I think the later Marattas, Jaats and Dogras were just as bad if not worse. Right up until the despicable actions of the IA in Kashmir against moslem women and sikh women in punjab. In all cases, the community losing the women cant seem to do anything about it.

Imbedded in that video of Khetarpal is another interview with NS Sandhu (sikh) - he commanded the Dogras and they fought bitterly with the pakistanis in hand to hand combat taking massive casualties outnumbered, outgunned but still fought and won a crucial sector. And yes, Khetarpal did probably single handedly save Northern India in that sector by taking on entire colums of pakistani tanks by himself.

I was going to post the list of the all the soldiers that died in the Kargil war. But that would cause a flame war because most of them (90%) are from the majority community. And I dont divide by religion.

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