Naam

[hsingh68]

I agree at the end, there is no perceptions of stages, its all one Ik0ngkar.

The thing is you need to realize that gurmat caters to all not just elitist types or estoeric aspirants since gurmat caters to all of humanity it breaks it down for all since everyone is at different different stages in spirituality so to break it down -stages are needed same thing with schooling you can't expect nursery student like us to understand phd stuff ..can you?

If I can understand that God is everything and that you can meet God without going into stages so can everyone, it takes no genius... even an uneducated person can realise God. There is a different thing between schooling, schooling requires people to learn new information, which takes a lot of time. However God is there right now, he is everywhere it just requires some veechar that's it. But it does take some time to do veechar and not putting them through stages but once a person realises that God is running the whole show. Then only God remains.

[hsingh68]

Yes there is no free will. Truly understanding that there is no free will lead you to realise God; if you say and really understand that there is no free will then you must have realised God...

[N30S1NGH]

If I can understand that God is everything and that you can meet God without going into stages so can everyone, it takes no genius... even an uneducated person can realise God. There is a different thing between schooling, schooling requires people to learn new information, which takes a lot of time. However God is there right now, he is everywhere it just requires some veechar that's it. But it does take some time to do veechar and not putting them through stages but once a person realises that God is running the whole show. Then only God remains.

Not everyone surti is clear like that since there are lot of factors - ie- past lives latent tendencies, past life karams, old sanskar etc so starting from beginning is required to slowly clean the mind by first niskham seva, rehat, gurbani recitation, vichar, naam recitation, prem, bairaag, devotion. No enlighten being would reject beginning, intermediary things/ stages for people all together. Yes they would give updesh to raise the bar of spiritual aspirants and actually change the perception of individuals but not reject or change the actual gurmat maryada or things or do khandan mandan of gurmat beginning sidhant.

Also as i mentioned from one gurmat sidhant maryada perspective which supposed to cater all most importantly beginners- structure or stages are required.

If one wants to break structure do it in their own surti within not in external panth like real life like missionaries who do khandan mandan of everything which is now having adverse effect on people going all left wing than bring good - bringing people to Gurmat which is center neither right nor left..

[WaljinderSingh]

Some have disguised themselves as Sikhs but in reality I can assure they are not. They are here, on this forum, just to confuse the Sangat ..

[N30S1NGH]

Some have disguised themselves as Sikhs but in reality I can assure they are not. They are here, on this forum, just to confuse the Sangat ..

That person does not seem like have malice intentions, please see this post..he is one of us but gone off tangent due to unfortunate circumstances:

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/72535-ugh-need-some-help-battling-with-my-identity/page-10#entry600013

[hsingh68]

Not everyone surti is clear like that since there are lot of factors - ie- past lives latent tendencies, past life karams, old sanskar etc so starting from beginning is required to slowly clean the mind by first niskham seva, rehat, gurbani recitation, vichar, naam recitation, prem, bairaag, devotion. No enlighten being would reject beginning, intermediary things/ stages for people all together, Yes they would give updesh to raise the bar of spiritual aspirants and change the perception of individuals but not reject the actual maryada or things or do khandan mandan of gurmat beginning sidhant.

Also as i mentioned from one gurmat sidhant maryada perspective which supposed to cater all most importantly beginners- structure or stages are required.

If one wants to break structure do it in your surti, not in real life like missionaries who do khandan mandan of everything which is having adverse effect on people than good.

It can be done, but one has to willing to let go of their old practices (that's the hardest path) and be open minded and willing to learn. Look at dasam bani Guru ji rejects every physical ritual possible. I can break everything down as well. Yes it will hurt people as some of them are still following these practices but it has to be done. I'm talking about realising God for everybody and not just sikhs. Following rehat, wearing 5 kakars are for sikhs. Gurbani in GGS is for everyone regardless of being religious or not. In the same way God is for all regardless of being religious or not.

Cleaning the mind is not just by reciting gurbani again and again nor is just reciting a mantar over again and again. Cleaning can only be done by veechar. I've walked the amritdhari path in the past for too long and was once bound by rules and stages.

You don't need to put people through stages look at guru nanak he made sajan tug realised and the carnibal guy realise God and that was not by puting them through stages. Nor did guru ji use some magic power or "high avasta" to make them realise God. Realisation of God can be done by everyone regardless of religion.

[harsharan000]

If you are reciting waheguru waheguru even before or after you have taken amrit and have not met God. Then you have not realised what true naam is or you have not been reciting naam. Understanding naam for a second means mukhti from the birth and life cycle.

Dear friends and sangat,

sometimes churning anything simple, just complicates things and make us miss the objective. That even, with the fact, by the quote given by Guru Nanak Dev Maharaj in an upper post some days back, saying that soul exists, there are people who deny that, challenge Guru Sahiban, by trying to put their point of view in front. This shows nothing else, but that we are weak and poor in chit, and have not yet understood the Bani at all.

The Bani of our Guru Sahibans, is perfect from any angle...not a single comma or even full stop so to say, should be modified...their words are perfect Laws for the whole humanity.

From what this brother hsingh68, has said in several posts... are just contradictions in his own posts and words.

Let us have an objective view on some of his words.

1)There is no individual soul other than param-Atma. There is no separate immortal soul that merges into an immortal God. There is only 1 soul, which is GOD.

There is only one God, that is true as we all know, it is in almost all holy scriptures, that is nothing new.

But when he says, there is no separate soul, here himself is being contradictory to what he says in a later post, when he says: Understanding naam for a second, means mukhti from the birth and life cycle.

Now, whose mukti is he talking about? Naturally not of God Wahiguru, who is ajoonee(birthless, so naturally deathless) and akal moorat.

So, if Wahiguru is ajoonee, then who is caught up in the cycle of births and deaths?

Naturally not the body ,nor the mind, which are made of the 5 elements, which are perishable... so then what is that left, which goes on and on, in different lives, and that which is not perisahble?

Because if it is not Wahiguru, nor the body or the mind who are caught up in the cycles of births and deaths, who is it to get the mukti from births and deaths? The only answer left with common sense is : the soul

So naturally as we know, Nam and Wahiguru is the same according to the Bani. That means, when the soul knows or remembers the Nam or Wahiguru, it gets free from the cycle of births and deaths, because it has previously freed it self from the mind and its mentor, Dharam Rai.

And he is saying:Understanding naam for a second, means mukhti from the birth and life cycle.

So who has to understand the Nam? Of course not Wahiguru, because He already knows what He is.

Neither the body or mind can understand what is Nam, as ther are "jarr" means consciousless, so the answer is the soul, which is in same in essence and nature like Akal Purukh, with its same properties.

And the soul also does not need to understand Nam exactly, because, it is already a particle of it, but yes, due to its association with the mind, it has forgotten its origin and is wandering aimlessly in the creation.

So, by the sacred practice of Nam Simran, the soul regains its real consciousness, that it is a part of Him, but separated from Him, due to x reasons, but it is naturally separated. And the proof is, we are in pain and suffering constantly.

As we know, Wahiguru is an infinite ocean of bliss also. Let us ask ourselves, are we in a bliss state?

No.

So naturally we are away from that ocean of bliss and everlasting happiness, in this creation, there where maya and mind have kept prisoners the souls. But Wahiguru is no less merciful also. That is why Gurmukhs come and remind us of the only reality Wahiguru, they say attach yourself to Nam Simran, and slowly and slowly, all your bondages, karmas, mind maya, kam krodh lobh moh ahankar...etc, shall be removed from you, and you shall be spotless, inmaculate totally, so to merge in your origin, Satnam samundar.

The bani says: sarab rog, ka aukhad Nam.

The Nam is the medicine for all our maladies and miseries

Supposing, our golden ring falls in a gutter and is covered with filth...that does not mean, its value has lessened... it is only it needs to be washed. This is the same with our souls, it is covered with the filth of karmas, sanskaras, sins, and with layers of mind, maya, the threes bodies: gross, astral and causal... so naturally it has adopted an akaaree roop to an extent... because as we know, Wahiguru, is Nirankar, Alakh and Agam...as there is no such thing as mind, maya ... this all exits, in the creation below Sach Khand.

2)Sach Khand has not left us....

That is true. Sach Khand has not left us. We have left Sach Khand. In the sense, the house never abandons you, but the being living there, can go out for any reasons.

Why has Wahiguru created this creation, and we are sent here, only He knows.

But one thing is sure, we are away from Him. If he were to explain us, we at our present state, we shall never understand it, so the Gurmukhs advise us, to elevate our consciousness to His level, and ask Him.

Other thing is, when we shall meet Him, all our doubts and questions shall be disolved. Like we have heard, a handful of salt went to sea to see its depth, but on reaching there, it melt and beacme one with sea.

So is the greatness of Wahiguru, the day we meet Him, we shall be Him. Not a part of Him, but Him, Himself.

That is the guarantee of our Guru Sahibans.

That is why, they have said: Jin Har jaapiyaa, se Har hoeeyaa.

Wah wah Sachay Badshah, kaun jaane guna Tere.

[hsingh68]

So who has to understand the Nam? Of course not Wahiguru, because He already knows what He is.

Yes you are right there is no mukhti not for the mind or body. Really we are always mukht, understanding naam means realising for the mind that you are always that immortal soul known as GOD. Most individuals thinks they are the mind or body and that is ego, the mind now understands that it has no independent reality of it's own and it was just a perishable aspect of that immortal God that was never born. So the question becomes who are we? GOD

Since who we are is never bound but the mind/body thought it is independent and therefore thought it was bound so understanding naam for a second means understanding that you are not the body or mind but God. There is no liberation in a physical way the whole concept is an illusion an error and understanding this is understanding naam.

so then what is that left, which goes on and on, in different lives, and that which is not perisahble?

There is no coming or going as our origin has always been God therefore we have always and will continue to go on and on, Gods keeps on playing creation. The lord is causing the thoughts, the feelings, the mind, creating the mind, moving all the bodies in the world and the list is endless. He is the architect of karama.

Neither the body or mind can understand what is Nam, as ther are "jarr" means consciousless.

Precisely it's not just the mind or body that is jarr anything made up of the 5 elements or any astral form is jarr.

True however the power behind the mind that gives the mind understanding that if it has no free will of its own then who is doing everything. Everything is jarr there is only God powering everything up. Naam is that God, supreme consciousness.

So, if Wahiguru is ajoonee, then who is caught up in the cycle of births and deaths?

The mistake of the ego identifying itself as a separate being, which thinks it is caught up in births and deaths. It's an illusion.. Mukhti is realising that it is an illusion. You seek some physical mukhti and that does not exist.

As we know, Wahiguru is an infinite ocean of bliss also. Let us ask ourselves, are we in a bliss state?

Yes only if you think you are not the mind and body. We are God. There is only God.

Why has Wahiguru created this creation

This creation has always been even when there is the big crunch the matter still remains but there is a change of shape of it. The matter consisting of atoms and the building blocks of atoms have always been for eternity. Therefore karma and time reaches infinity.

And the soul also does not need to understand Nam exactly, because, it is already a particle of it, but yes, due to its association with the mind, it has forgotten its origin and is wandering aimlessly in the creation.

Your theory about the soul does not make sense there is no logic behind it at all. Being broken into parts of God. Do you really think the soul will forget it's origin even when it it associates with the mind? That is flawed logic also if the soul is immortal like God as you say do you think it wanders aimlessly in the creation? Can something immortal be part of the physical world? Do you think the soul occupies a space?

So, by the sacred practice of Nam Simran, the soul regains its real consciousness, that it is a part of Him, but separated from Him, due to x reasons, but it is naturally separated. And the proof is, we are in pain and suffering constantly.

The mind feels pain and that's what it does, it also feels pleasure but we are NOT the mind. That's why it is important to understand what the Ego is and the illusion it is causing of separateness.

[Guest]

Can you answer me in the other thread?

[harsharan000]

Dear hsingh68,

One thing is clear, when it comes to Parmarth, I do not depend on any theory, nor do I try to make any of mine...I just rely and apply what our Guru Sahibans say in the Bani, and I take it literally, not as any theory.

It would be a great error to do so, as by not following the perfect Bani, the outcome is only: doubts and failure. I do understand and respect your views, as Parmarath, is not like the knowledge given by teachers or professors in the school or universities, that every body has to learn and memorize...like let us say USA, is in the west, and India in the east, as simple as that, and all accept it.

Parmarath or spirituality is not like that, though it is completely rationale, but to understand it and accept it, depends on each one´s level of consciousness... and as one evolves, maybe what today you do not accept or beleive, after some years, you may come to understand.

But the main thing is not to force or impose anything on anybody, neither getting annoyed, as per why he or she does not see, as clear as I see and understand the Bani, as said before, spirituality is not like that. Here the faculty of reasoning, has a very little to do. each and every soul has a purpose to fulfill ... the creation has to go on, if each and everyone accepted the true Bani in the true sense, this world would start becoming unpopulated, and this for the time being will not happen, as the creator still wants the creation to go on.

So brother do not worry, you are right for yourself, because that is how it is meant for you, even if a mahapurush, or a gurmukh were sent to make you understand, even then, you will not accept those truths howsoever logical they may be.

I usually give the following example, Prithi Chand, had the emodiments(Sree Guru Ram Das, and Sachay Badshah Sree Guru Arjun Dev Maharaj) of Truth in front of his very eyes, and lived with them, and with good fortune having their darshan, but still then, he did not recognize them, neither accepted them as such, and was full of malice....That means, simply it was not meant for him.

We are matured in spirituality with time, not by wishing or desiring it.

But in the end I shall only say:

Baba, jis toon deveh, so jan paveh.

To whom You want to give that understanding, only he receives it.

Everything else, one gets upon one´s karmas, but understanding Gurmat and putting it into practice, is by His Grace alone.

Wahiguru Jeeo.