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Maybe We Should All Rethink Our Actions To As How Far We Have Taken Sikhi From Sikhi, Rather Than Think We're All Great Sikhs

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There's numerous Rehat Maryade, numerous jathebandiya, caste segregation, yes/no to meat, yes/no to Shiri Dasam Granth, unresponsive so called leaders of Shiri Akal takhat, relaxed rules for beadbi of Shiri Guru Granth Sahib, interfaith marriage, beadbi of the anand karaj, lavish silly weddings wearing a dastar/trimming our beard, the way were portrayed in media as drunks/ girls cut kesh/short skirts with a Kara, guys prancing about with girls with a bottle of whiskey in their hand, Kara on their wrist and a big fat khada made out of gold.......yet the khalsa was only established in 1699! Are we goin to the gurdwara, participating while were there as we have too, then as soon as we get out do exalctly what we shouldn't be doing by majority? How did we get here? Are we doin enough to restore the damage? How can we ask the guru to tear our bedhawa what we have written against our guru, shoul there just not be one path, one rehat and one physical identity of the khalsa panth?

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Perhaps the Guru didn't create one khalsa as we would like to think but created one in the way he created one entire community and every community has a cross section of different qualities. Like you have the soldiers, then the arms makers, then the writers, the preachers, but everyone has the ability to overlap if necessary. The diversity probably existed early on but the diversity of jathas is different, not as bad as people make it out to be but bad sometimes when we don't unite on issues like turban searches- since people only want their group to take the lead on it. The jatha-bandis can create great rivalry and when organizations rival one another the quality of the product or service has to increase otherwise they are out of business. All of this will benefit the quality of the parchar. People are ready to defect from one group to the other if parchar betters, and I don't see much reason to be tied down to one jatha as long as they follow the basic principles of sikhi, we don't need to always get so technical on little things when we don't get done with the big things. When sikhs lived in jungles some sikhs did act on their own to counteract mughal and afghan resistance, to deal with mercenaries that were sent after sikhs.

But besides all of that we shouldn't forget the most important part of sikhi is to be a great human being. To be good to other people, to speak with sweetness, to curb anger, to speak not blandly, not to harm others.

I can see the angle you are coming from, basically that we are a body, running of an engine made up of different engine parts, to which I can understand if all these individual groups understand the role of the other. Which they don't, Hence why their is not one body, one Panth, one movement.....its a case of my sikhi is better than yours like how children argue. This is because of the very reason of grouping which is created as we still see a difference in one another.

My previous thread on Rehat Maryade was closed for some reason, but the various Rehat Maryade cause confusion, why did these x people have the right to make their Rehat Maryada based on their opinion, should we of not just based it on the hukum of Guru Gobind Singh?

If your for example a English person looking in from the outside, we claim many things within our religion, no caste, one path, equality etc.......but really we don't now have any number of these gret things. We are proud to be Sikh and we tell everyone, but we ourselves have brought the dharma to where it is today, because we have no unity on anything, we in majority stay in our set groups, caste, jathebandi, Maryada and preach to other people were great Sikhs when i fact were to bling to see our ahankar and work together to build a solution. I do agree, their is unity on issues like bhai rajoana, however it finishes there.

Basically, we have created numerous paths which we think are right, based on our own bhudhe and self belief.

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Perhaps the Guru didn't create one khalsa as we would like to think but created one in the way he created one entire community and every community has a cross section of different qualities. Like you have the soldiers, then the arms makers, then the writers, the preachers, but everyone has the ability to overlap if necessary. The diversity probably existed early on but the diversity of jathas is different, not as bad as people make it out to be but bad sometimes when we don't unite on issues like turban searches- since people only want their group to take the lead on it. The jatha-bandis can create great rivalry and when organizations rival one another the quality of the product or service has to increase otherwise they are out of business. All of this will benefit the quality of the parchar. People are ready to defect from one group to the other if parchar betters, and I don't see much reason to be tied down to one jatha as long as they follow the basic principles of sikhi, we don't need to always get so technical on little things when we don't get done with the big things. When sikhs lived in jungles some sikhs did act on their own to counteract mughal and afghan resistance, to deal with mercenaries that were sent after sikhs.

But besides all of that we shouldn't forget the most important part of sikhi is to be a great human being. To be good to other people, to speak with sweetness, to curb anger, to speak not blandly, not to harm others.

I can see the angle you are coming from, basically that we are a body, running of an engine made up of different engine parts, to which I can understand if all these individual groups understand the role of the other. Which they don't, Hence why their is not one body, one Panth, one movement.....its a case of my sikhi is better than yours like how children argue. This is because of the very reason of grouping which is created as we still see a difference in one another.

My previous thread on Rehat Maryade was closed for some reason, but the various Rehat Maryade cause confusion, why did these x people have the right to make their Rehat Maryada based on their opinion, should we of not just based it on the hukum of Guru Gobind Singh?

If your for example a English person looking in from the outside, we claim many things within our religion, no caste, one path, equality etc.......but really we don't now have any number of these gret things. We are proud to be Sikh and we tell everyone, but we ourselves have brought the dharma to where it is today, because we have no unity on anything, we in majority stay in our set groups, caste, jathebandi, Maryada and preach to other people were great Sikhs when i fact were to bling to see our ahankar and work together to build a solution. I do agree, their is unity on issues like bhai rajoana, however it finishes there.

Basically, we have created numerous paths which we think are right, based on our own bhudhe and self belief.

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Focus on gurbani and rest of all puzzling questions we all have will get away slowly. Sikhi is patience wala dharam.

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Focus on gurbani and rest of all puzzling questions we all have will get away slowly. Sikhi is patience wala dharam.

That's a optimistical way of looking at it, however we cant just put are heads in the sand and ignore these issues. As you can already see, no one wants to really discuss these controversial issues as it may shine light on the way of life we live.

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you know it dear....we sikhs always escape.....we can't face the truth...... .. hypocrisy in sikhs f*cks these days.....

I think because we're the younger generation, we can all reform and get back to what sikhi was about, one path one panth! For the sake of our children and the state of our dharam

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There's numerous 1Rehat Maryade, 2numerous jathebandiya, 3caste segregation, 4yes/no to meat, 5yes/no to Shiri Dasam Granth, 6unresponsive so called leaders of Shiri Akal takhat, 7relaxed rules for beadbi of Shiri Guru Granth Sahib, 8interfaith marriage, beadbi of the anand karaj, lavish silly weddings wearing a dastar/trimming our beard, the way were portrayed in media as drunks/ girls cut kesh/short skirts with a Kara, guys prancing about with girls with a bottle of whiskey in their hand, Kara on their wrist and a big fat khada made out of gold.......yet the khalsa was only established in 1699! Are we goin to the gurdwara, participating while were there as we have too, then as soon as we get out do exalctly what we shouldn't be doing by majority? How did we get here? Are we doin enough to restore the damage? How can we ask the guru to tear our bedhawa what we have written against our guru, shoul there just not be one path, one rehat and one physical identity of the khalsa panth?

Paji it would be brilliant if all of us were in total unison on everything and move forward collectively as a Panth in Unity only, however we have to accept our Unity in Diversity when it comes to reality now in 2014.

1. I'd like to see one Panthic Maryada also but the 1950 definition of a what defines a Sikh as such strongly assists our RSS enemies in expanding the number of Hindu's defined by the same whilst constricting the demographic population of Sikhs so that we are a powerless minority instead of the natural majority of humanity (that surely wishes to see Sarbat Da Bhala). There is a distinction between the definition of an Amritdhari GurSikh and an ordinary lay Sikh. The puratan definition of an ordinary lay Sikh is anyone who bows before Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj (regardless of the parental religious background of that person).

2. Jathebandiya exist fair enough but where they put themselves first and the Panth second is where we should call them out upon. As the Panth's interests always need to come 1st always rather their own petty rivalries and their own segregagational Gurukar attempts.

3. If we can't unite on this and the need for caste cancer as a concept to be killed and Gurdwara's to be merged, what exactly will ever unite on. Surely when it comes to opposing caste, drugs, alcohol, illiteracy, poverty and female infanticide we should all be on the same page!

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/66391-mergers-so-that-only-1-gurdwara-per-local-area/

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/70587-how-to-tackle-jaath-paath-discrimination-in-matrimonials/

4. I believe that's a personal decision for us to interpret whether Gurmat advises us one way or another (so no reason for any rifts)

5. Contrary to what our opponents want us to think, there is no divide on that issue either as 100% of the Panth believe in 100% of blessed Dasam Bani. [MOD CUT]

6. If Akal Takht go against the Truth or Panthic interests (by ignoring drugs, alcohol, caste, illiteracty, poverty and infanticide to the degree they are) then it is up to us Sangat to still follow Gurmat whilst not unduly harming the institution overly so that it is shaken irrevocably (as our opponents would wish). Regardless of what a Jathedar may say it is still up to us to show our devotion to Sikhi via our practical actions and money towards Panthic Upliftment (rather than just our words).

7. My personal view is that Maharaj being Maharaj is fundamentally beyond Beadbi from our Panth's opponents but as Sikhs ourselves we should strive to avoid Beadbi (without deification or idolisation). Of course, many believe that apartheid segregated Gurdwara's, gold adorning Gurdwara's while children go hungry or uneducated, reference to devotees who bow before Maharaj as non-Sikhs are all forms of Beadbi in their own way.

8. Mixed marriages are going to increase year after year, whether we like it or not so I think unitedly we should formulate a strategy that will link the children of such marriages to Sikhi, rather than alienating them away forever so that year after year our Panth's population inevitably drops via scenes as seen at Swindon a while back.

But in conculsion imho I believe we need to embrace diversity (much as it may pain those like myself to do so) if we are serious about the Khalsa Fauj being a global force to prevent oppression of the weak globally to ensure Sarbat Da Bhala. Rather than focussing on our differences let's always conscioulsy choose to focus on (the agenda) that we actually share with others in the Panth. Academic disagreement doesn't mean vaad-vivaadh either as it actually strengthens us collectively to think outside of the box and potentially push reforms.

-------------

The painful history of 1984 and the Genocide occurred and there's nothing we can do to turn back time now.

However, 30 years on what we youth in the West can certainly do is set ourselves aims and objectives as members of the Sikh Panth to hit the following targets for Panthic upliftment by combatting drugs, alcohol, biraderi, infanticide, illiteracy, cancer and poverty. All bakhre bakhre Gurdware must be merged as soon as possible.

UK Sangat to raise £30 million plus by June 2014

Canadian Sangat to C$30 million plus by June 2014

American Sangat to raise $30 million plus by June 2014

Other Diaspora Countries Sangat should target $10million plus by June 2014

India-based Sangat could arguably raise R300crores plus by June 2014

And with an eventual target of national Panj Pyaaray representatives from each country handing over their respective nation Sangat's cheques to the SGPC for firewalled projects for Panthic Upliftment in combatting drugs, alcohol, infanticide, biraderi, illiteracy, cancer and poverty and every penny of the funds presented to SGPC in June 2014 being watched over by auditors to confirm that Badal Dal cannot access, use or waste a single penny of the funds raised by Sangat, thereby transforming SGPC into a clean saanjha charitable vehicle for the Upliftment of the Poor and management of United Gurdwara's as it was always intended.

Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj must be translated into Tamil, Bengali, Oriya, Telugu etc, etc to get the Truth of what Sikhi represents out there further.

Rather than just remembering the past, we need to actively attack the current silent Genocide occuring via infanticide, drugs, cancer, illiteracy, biraderi and poverty.

Let's hear every forum members idea's on how we actually make this happen. Let's all contact Sikh organisations and us as Sangat try spread this agenda like a virus!

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People who become ego centric about their own spiritual path will drift from it themselves, don't worry about the drifters just keep your own car on the track, because if you pay too much attention to the drifters you might end up drifting aswell - i'm not saying be apathetic to them or indifferent but focus on what matters more. Besides sometimes the best way to change a group is to change yourself, many Sikhs are always on the look for great sikhs and we need people to steer us right aswell. Since we are all products of our kaum, one factor can change the collective end product. It takes one great Sikh like Baba Deep Singh to make all the rest of us shine on the world stage. But in the court of god we need our own spiritual merit. It sounds like in the example of the car engine the parts are not working well oiled, and colliding in your example. Sikhi's correction method was always that great sikhs rose, flops fell. People like Banda Singh Bahadur grew in fame, the massands, minas all became no ones from once being from the gurus families or/and the equivalent of the panj pyare system in the past.

The rehat marayada have been based off the hukams of guru gobind singh, surely the panthic singh sabha's was in the opinion of many sikhs. If you read into how the singh sabha was formed as a body during the british empire to maintain and administer gurdwaras and sikh matters, some people have called the singh sabha sell outs to the british due to a few black sheep who were abstracted and due to how the Indian government can interfere in the successors of the singh sabha, the sgpc matters. Your thread was probably closed to avoid a secterian argument that could abrupt out of disagreements on versions of history or rehat.

Guru Gobind Singh's dictations of what rehat was, was written down by various writers in rehatnama such as bhai nand lal, bhai daya singh etc. You can get books listing the known ones and what they said. There were mutal matters in them and matters Sikhs who claim from prestige sikh lineages from prestige gursikhs with oral history considered to be direct interpolation, probably the massands changing them or error in transmission. There were hukamanama written by guru gobind singh combined with various historical sources all used by people like sardar kahn singh nabha and sardar vir singh to find what was common in them all and what the hukam of sikh was and to define sikhi so as to rid sikhs of the growth of heretical groups such as deviations of the massands and other anti-panthic groups which are introduced today. Some Sikhs such as bhai randhir singh another prominent sikh is said to have disagreed on the entire panthic matters so went on latter to form a jatha whose marayada was seen as the right one but it was still considered a part of the panth because the panth marayada's bare minimum was still in line with AKJs. Other segmented groups had reformation movements which I won't name to avoid people calling me a jatha-basher or start jatha bashing all of these various groups had that basis and felt certain teachings were not accurate. Now one of the other more famous groups was slowly moved out of the limelight of the panth which was the nihangs and alot more history goes into this.

But every legitimate Sikh group can agree that the very minimum to being a Sikh is in the SGPC rehat inherited from the Singh Sabha, the other groups only deviate on technicalities but for the most part agree on it's totality as being the framework of sikhi. Other groups who fundamentally reject panthic rehat, through out the Rehat marayada of the SGPC are usually anti sikh groups like the arya samaj, rss, bajrang dal, massands, minas, noormahalia, and more groups growing.

"English people" as it is who seek those things usually take an anthropological view on the entireity of Sikhs, the english people know heresy exists in every religion. But when people study a religion they are usually more concerned with it's teachings, tenants and philosophy rather then it's deviant heresy. We have to accept the heresy exists and work it out among ourselves, our religion gives us the freedom not to follow it if we choose and most of us take small steps in the faith. Although some people stress jathabandi is equal in weight of a problem to caste, I personally in my opinion feel caste is a worse problem. Jathas existed in the time of the Gurus such as the Tarna Dal (youth group) and Budha dal (elder group), tat khalsa, sarbat khalsa had various divisions mostly based on tactically displacement for survival during harder times. Jathas exist on geographical basis now, but the problem plaguing these jathas is people seeking jathedari, president seats, positions of power in sikh religious institutions and when they don't get it they make a new gurdwara, a new jatha, a new sect, a new religion. I wonder sometimes if people are so hungry for respect why don't they earn it else where in a career or open a company and become a CEO- invest that effort else where (maybe start projects translating more sikh texts which are lying around and haven't been translated yet). The respective jathas we have, have increased the competition between them and all of that has actually overall improved over time the quallity of the parchar - that is one positive. One negative is how we don't unite in times like turban searches or sikh attacks (such as grooming gangs- people run away, hate crimes etc.)

All of our "Sikh" numerous paths converge to one point which is Guru Granth Sahib, if we accept it as the light of guru Nanak and follow it we will not differ. This was the uniting factor in the times of guru gobind singh in times of hardship after the 10th guru among puratan sikhs. Out of all of the disputes; the worst of arguments would fade because gursikhs never quarrel in front of guru granth sahib; considering it as a great sin and people's enmity were even buried - the power of gurbani also opens up the human heart (not many experience,it all maharajs kirpa and hukam, but it happens).

WJKK, WJKF

Thanks for your reply, it was really interesting to read. I agree with you on many things you stated, I personally feel that our guru made one path, even though jathebandiya were around very early in the creation of the khalsa, like you stated. However today's jathebandiya are basically factions of sikhs who differ with beliefs. The numerous paths of sikhs that merge into one does not make sense to me. As there is only one khalsa not many. When sikhs wrote various rehat Maryade from the hukumname of Shiri Guru Gobind Singh, they at that point should of realised they were creating future factions which inevitably would work against sikhi. Only one rehat should of been released by elder sikhs in the name of the khalsa. The problem is, many sikhs views now differ on what sikhi is and what is permitted. So how can we unite and work out any dharmic issue if we are all segregated in the first place. I agree with you caste is such a disease breaking down the body of sikhi, but all these other factions are too.

Again, great informative post, thank you!

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I think one beauty of Sikhs is how we can have our own opinion among ourselves and be free thinkers if you a group of sheeps who follow the sheep herder then you only need to defeat the sheep herder or just one sheep and you defeat all of them, because all of them share the same ideas. Let's say religion x which acts like a cult iterates a script among all of it's followers to convert people, all you need to do is defeat one person from x in debate and you defeated them all- they all think the same. In Sikhi if you defeat one person, we still have sava lakh more points. We were taught by our guru to be freethinkers and not to bow blindly before any cleric easily to become sheep easily.

Let me elaborate on the rehat issue: The sgpc rehat says you can eat meat but not halal, every other jatha agrees to this at least in some shape or form. Jathas which are pure vegetarians agree halal is a no-no but to add on to that they don't eat any other slaughter form. So they share that very basic. Nihang jathas and other factions with nihang origins promote pure jhatka and are against halal. Because of the panthic rehat both nihangs and vegeterian sikhs are both under the panthic rehat. So there rehat on that basis is one.

AKJ feel keski is a rehat, some jathas feel keski is a formality, SGPC says bare minimum is keep kesh with the other kakkars every Sikh jatha agrees keeping kesh is a requirement of khalsa so the panthic rehat is united on that issue.

The issue of how much paath and to which point to stop. Sikh jathas all say 5 banis, some say 5 banis in morning 2 after (evening and night), some tell you to do a bit more anand sahib some say do a bit more chaupai sahib stop here or there. SGPC gives the bare minimum of paath that every other jatha does anyway, any paath is better then no paath. So the panth is in agreement on the banis set to be read the least, and the SGPC encourages people reading more bani anyway.

Bibek buddhi, sarbloh rehat this is a very difficult one SGPC rehat say don't keep bibek with panthic dushmans such as massands, minas etc unless they take amrit become khalsa i.e repent. Every Sikh jatha is in agreement of that they only differ on technicalities on this matter.

So with the above technical differences we all do have on common rehat just we differ on technicalities. We do have one common rehat but many of us are still taking our baby steps before following that and in a way people are fine walking towards the guru, you walk one step, the guru takes a hundred. On the subject of marriage every jatha agrees a sikh should marry a sikh there is no difference in that rehat.

Gurusahib made the panth the guru and gave panth khalsa the power to make hukamnama and by the power of the five takht, sarbat khalsa, five jathedars and panj pyare from each takht everyone agrees with the bare minimum of the panthic rehat.

Again very interesting however I disagree everyone agrees on a common thread, just look at the question and answer shows on the various sikh channels and general opinions on websites like these, on issues like meat, there is no agreement at all. People will state clearly, meat is forbidden for sikhs, that's my point, too much of a mixed message. This website does not even allow topics on meat at all, as they have a outright no stance.

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People who become ego centric about their own spiritual path will drift from it themselves, don't worry about the drifters just keep your own car on the track, because if you pay too much attention to the drifters you might end up drifting aswell - i'm not saying be apathetic to them or indifferent but focus on what matters more. Besides sometimes the best way to change a group is to change yourself, many Sikhs are always on the look for great sikhs and we need people to steer us right aswell. Since we are all products of our kaum, one factor can change the collective end product. It takes one great Sikh like Baba Deep Singh to make all the rest of us shine on the world stage. But in the court of god we need our own spiritual merit. It sounds like in the example of the car engine the parts are not working well oiled, and colliding in your example. Sikhi's correction method was always that great sikhs rose, flops fell. People like Banda Singh Bahadur grew in fame, the massands, minas all became no ones from once being from the gurus families or/and the equivalent of the panj pyare system in the past.

The rehat marayada have been based off the hukams of guru gobind singh, surely the panthic singh sabha's was in the opinion of many sikhs. If you read into how the singh sabha was formed as a body during the british empire to maintain and administer gurdwaras and sikh matters, some people have called the singh sabha sell outs to the british due to a few black sheep who were abstracted and due to how the Indian government can interfere in the successors of the singh sabha, the sgpc matters. Your thread was probably closed to avoid a secterian argument that could abrupt out of disagreements on versions of history or rehat.

Guru Gobind Singh's dictations of what rehat was, was written down by various writers in rehatnama such as bhai nand lal, bhai daya singh etc. You can get books listing the known ones and what they said. There were mutal matters in them and matters Sikhs who claim from prestige sikh lineages from prestige gursikhs with oral history considered to be direct interpolation, probably the massands changing them or error in transmission. There were hukamanama written by guru gobind singh combined with various historical sources all used by people like sardar kahn singh nabha and sardar vir singh to find what was common in them all and what the hukam of sikh was and to define sikhi so as to rid sikhs of the growth of heretical groups such as deviations of the massands and other anti-panthic groups which are introduced today. Some Sikhs such as bhai randhir singh another prominent sikh is said to have disagreed on the entire panthic matters so went on latter to form a jatha whose marayada was seen as the right one but it was still considered a part of the panth because the panth marayada's bare minimum was still in line with AKJs. Other segmented groups had reformation movements which I won't name to avoid people calling me a jatha-basher or start jatha bashing all of these various groups had that basis and felt certain teachings were not accurate. Now one of the other more famous groups was slowly moved out of the limelight of the panth which was the nihangs and alot more history goes into this.

But every legitimate Sikh group can agree that the very minimum to being a Sikh is in the SGPC rehat inherited from the Singh Sabha, the other groups only deviate on technicalities but for the most part agree on it's totality as being the framework of sikhi. Other groups who fundamentally reject panthic rehat, through out the Rehat marayada of the SGPC are usually anti sikh groups like the arya samaj, rss, bajrang dal, massands, minas, noormahalia, and more groups growing.

"English people" as it is who seek those things usually take an anthropological view on the entireity of Sikhs, the english people know heresy exists in every religion. But when people study a religion they are usually more concerned with it's teachings, tenants and philosophy rather then it's deviant heresy. We have to accept the heresy exists and work it out among ourselves, our religion gives us the freedom not to follow it if we choose and most of us take small steps in the faith. Although some people stress jathabandi is equal in weight of a problem to caste, I personally in my opinion feel caste is a worse problem. Jathas existed in the time of the Gurus such as the Tarna Dal (youth group) and Budha dal (elder group), tat khalsa, sarbat khalsa had various divisions mostly based on tactically displacement for survival during harder times. Jathas exist on geographical basis now, but the problem plaguing these jathas is people seeking jathedari, president seats, positions of power in sikh religious institutions and when they don't get it they make a new gurdwara, a new jatha, a new sect, a new religion. I wonder sometimes if people are so hungry for respect why don't they earn it else where in a career or open a company and become a CEO- invest that effort else where (maybe start projects translating more sikh texts which are lying around and haven't been translated yet). The respective jathas we have, have increased the competition between them and all of that has actually overall improved over time the quallity of the parchar - that is one positive. One negative is how we don't unite in times like turban searches or sikh attacks (such as grooming gangs- people run away, hate crimes etc.)

All of our "Sikh" numerous paths converge to one point which is Guru Granth Sahib, if we accept it as the light of guru Nanak and follow it we will not differ. This was the uniting factor in the times of guru gobind singh in times of hardship after the 10th guru among puratan sikhs. Out of all of the disputes; the worst of arguments would fade because gursikhs never quarrel in front of guru granth sahib; considering it as a great sin and people's enmity were even buried - the power of gurbani also opens up the human heart (not many experience,it all maharajs kirpa and hukam, but it happens).

I think one beauty of Sikhs is how we can have our own opinion among ourselves and be free thinkers if you a group of sheeps who follow the sheep herder then you only need to defeat the sheep herder or just one sheep and you defeat all of them, because all of them share the same ideas. Let's say religion x which acts like a cult iterates a script among all of it's followers to convert people, all you need to do is defeat one person from x in debate and you defeated them all- they all think the same. In Sikhi if you defeat one person, we still have sava lakh more points. We were taught by our guru to be freethinkers and not to bow blindly before any cleric easily to become sheep easily.

Let me elaborate on the rehat issue: The sgpc rehat says you can eat meat but not halal, every other jatha agrees to this at least in some shape or form. Jathas which are pure vegetarians agree halal is a no-no but to add on to that they don't eat any other slaughter form. So they share that very basic. Nihang jathas and other factions with nihang origins promote pure jhatka and are against halal. Because of the panthic rehat both nihangs and vegeterian sikhs are both under the panthic rehat. So there rehat on that basis is one.

AKJ feel keski is a rehat, some jathas feel keski is a formality, SGPC says bare minimum is keep kesh with the other kakkars every Sikh jatha agrees keeping kesh is a requirement of khalsa so the panthic rehat is united on that issue.

The issue of how much paath and to which point to stop. Sikh jathas all say 5 banis, some say 5 banis in morning 2 after (evening and night), some tell you to do a bit more anand sahib some say do a bit more chaupai sahib stop here or there. SGPC gives the bare minimum of paath that every other jatha does anyway, any paath is better then no paath. So the panth is in agreement on the banis set to be read the least, and the SGPC encourages people reading more bani anyway.

Bibek buddhi, sarbloh rehat this is a very difficult one SGPC rehat say don't keep bibek with panthic dushmans such as massands, minas etc unless they take amrit become khalsa i.e repent. Every Sikh jatha is in agreement of that they only differ on technicalities on this matter.

So with the above technical differences we all do have on common rehat just we differ on technicalities. We do have one common rehat but many of us are still taking our baby steps before following that and in a way people are fine walking towards the guru, you walk one step, the guru takes a hundred. On the subject of marriage every jatha agrees a sikh should marry a sikh there is no difference in that rehat.

Gurusahib made the panth the guru and gave panth khalsa the power to make hukamnama and by the power of the five takht, sarbat khalsa, five jathedars and panj pyare from each takht everyone agrees with the bare minimum of the panthic rehat.

UKL = Great posts Username1 Paji. Anyone who cares about Sikhi won't focus on our differences but will consciously choose to appreciate our similar beliefs and common causes. Having said that, the whole concept of academic discussion meaning "vaad-vivaadh and automatically being bad" will leave our Qaum stagnant and incapable of reform. We need to be mature enough to discuss ALL issues with pyaar and satkaar and "agree to disagree" when that happens. If something is important to the future direction of the Panth it needs to be discussed as Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj and the authors of Gurbani never hesitated to address societal or theological evils where required. I know this won't be popular but imho even aside from common sense basics such as biraderi or jathebandi divides (both of which I hate and as Giani Ditt Singh always emphasised we as a Qaum need to overcome) we should even look to see where we can possibly see common causes for societal upliftment with the various historically pro-Congress sects as that can only progress Sarbat Da Bhala faster.

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I have done my research to and that is why I have come to the conclusion. The meat issue is not just the issue here, its all the above mentioned and if we cannot discuss these issues as you state, it causes further rifts within the Panth, we basically again do not agree, we are burying our heads in the sand and not doing any think as the new generation of Sikhs. I see cracks emerging and i want to try fill them. However, up and till we don't recognise we have issues, they will get larger and worser. The numerous segmentations are evidence of this, like you said we are three thinkers, I am not a sheep who will just simply follow someone who has sant status gained from somewhere. The reason today behind our problems is our justification of our interpretation of sikhi and the Khalsa, yet we are the youngest religion out of the 5 worlds major religions, look how segmentated we have become, due to self ego, caste and power. Again, we simply bury our heads in the sand.

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