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Question About Chandi Di Vaar

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WJKK WJKF

At the end of Chandi Di Vaar it says "Durga path banaya sabay paurian || Fir na jooni aaya jin eh gaaya ||55||

Is the meaning of this literally how its's translated or does it get deeper? Does it mean mukhti or something else?

Sorry if this's been asked before, I couldn't find an answer.

WJKK WJKF

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In my opinion (do not want to offend others). Yes it literally means what it says, Durga is the Hindu goddess and she is a manifestation of Vahigurus shakti so it's not worshipping her as a Devi but evoking that shakti of Vahiguru that mata ji represents, as she is a part of the infinite Akaal purakh Vahiguru. And yea moksha/mukti is attained but it's not a simple case of singing her path, it's understanding and living the teachings our Gurus taught us. Otherwise everyone would just sing it and do nothing else and feel we have attained mukti........that would make us no better than certain Muslims who live a life of sin but feel they will go to heaven because they have converted 'non- believers'.

Once again, apologies if this offends anyone, this is my humble opinion.

Ps you may find interesting the topic I started caller 'bhagauti and Durga'

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WJKK WJKF

At the end of Chandi Di Vaar it says "Durga path banaya sabay paurian || Fir na jooni aaya jin eh gaaya ||55||

Is the meaning of this literally how its's translated or does it get deeper? Does it mean mukhti or something else?

Sorry if this's been asked before, I couldn't find an answer.

WJKK WJKF

Read the whole bani. Durga as devi is not praised. Vaheguru is not stuck in good and evil like the devta and devi. The bani is praising the source of shakti and the shakti in the form of weapons. Durga, Indra, and demons are the ponds in this chess match. Both sides do not understand the greatness. In the beginning Indra( considered a god; stressing the word GOD) is unable to fight the demons. So Durga is called to fight the demons. If Durga is praised for being a goddess then her other half God (Indra supreme being according to Hinduism) is to be praised. But wait God Indra couldn't fight his own battle. Indra did not make durga to fight but praised and begged durga.

Don't fall prey to these one liners. Look at the whole scheme of things.

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'The bani is praising the source of shakti and the shakti in the form of weapons'

In my opinion, again no offence to anyone intended, but I feel guru Ji is praising the form of shakti in this instance in the form of Durga herself, Guru Ji does in many cases praise the shakti in the form of weapons but I don't feel that's what's happening in this instance. It doesn't mean guru Ji's 'worshipping a Devi' or anything like, which many people fear in discussing in this area. But he's appreciating vahigurus shakti in the form of the Devi. Also this shaktis other half is not Indira (again in my opinion). Also again in my humble opinion it's a misconception that indira is the supreme being in Hinduism. Our Guru Granth Sahib Ji maharaj explains this beautifully in the last post I wrote in 'Bhagauti and Durga' discussion (I'll refrain from copying and pasting it).

Thanks.

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Why would Guru Sahib praise Durga the goddess?

WJKK WJKF

Shiri Guru Gobind Singh ji is and was an unstoppable sant Siphai. In the Zafarnama guru sahib "praises" the soldiers who fought with valour on the battlefield, these were human kind. Why wouldn't guru sahib have praise then for Durga mata? The entity who embodies femininity and the very embodiment of the Siphai created to represent Akal purakhs army against injustice since ancient times. The guru Sahibi never said that this era or history never occurred. However refer back to this ancient time, displaying the greatness and perfectness of Akal Purakh in contrast to the imperfections and ideals of these beings such as Indira. These beings are not human, rather extra terrestrial beings, obviously their knowledge and understanding far exceeds ours, however they embody the same imperfections and weaknesses in character what us humans have, the only perfect being is Akal Purakh, waheguru the created of all.

I do not understand why people think sikhi would never give praise to devte and devia? Why not? If it is such a misconception, gurbani and sikh text would of refrained from the references of the above sort, like using shiva in "deh shiva bar mohe", why not just use the word waheguru?

The devte and devia are of a higher intelligence and of a different creation to that of man kind. The difference is they are a extra terrestrial race, which have governed over this world and many others. There are many other creation like this which we have no knowledge of as there are many galaxies and universes which jap Naam. The main point is, there is only one perfect being which is the creator. Prayer should be connected through your atma via this body of human kind to waheguru. This extra terrestrial race has the power to intervene within people's life's, this has been the case from the very time of creation of us on this dwelling, Earth. They set many rules to man kind in many different forms and names. Some very wrong and some right. Some of these beings are of a great nature and some are not. The message of Guru nanaks Nirmal panth was to believe in the one god- meaning these are not gods or goddesses. We have put them on that level through our misunderstanding.

WJKK WJKF

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Before this goes completely side ways. Let's start at the beginning of Chandi di Vaar. Simple question. Why did Vaheguru cause the demons to take over the kingdom of devta? Here is the answer.

ਅਭਿਮਾਨੁ ਉਤਾਰਨ ਦੇਵਤਿਆਂ ਮਹਿਖਾਸੁਰ ਸੁੰਭ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥

अभिमानु उतारन देवतिआं महिखासुर सु्मभ उपाइआ ॥

Mahishasura and Sumbh were created for removing the pride of the gods (Indra, Krishna, Rama, etc).

These devta were full of ego and thought to themselves to be the Supreme Being (no one is greater than us). Before this line Guru Sahib says these devta do not understand Vaheguru. Here it is

ਬਡੇ ਬਡੇ ਮੁਨਿ ਦੇਵਤੇ ਕਈ ਜੁਗ ਤਿਨੀ ਤਨੁ ਤਾਇਆ ॥

बडे बडे मुनि देवते कई जुग तिनी तनु ताइआ ॥

The great sages and gods, even practising great austerities for several ages;

ਕਿਨੀ ਤੇਰਾ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੨॥

किनी तेरा अंतु न पाइआ ॥२॥

None could know Thy end.2.

Those that say Guru Sahib is praising Durga need to focus on these lines where Guru Sahib says Krishna and Rama received the power from Vaheguru. The praise goes directly to the one that gave the power not the puppets (devta).

ਤੈ ਹੀ ਦੁਰਗਾ ਸਾਜਿ ਕੈ ਦੈਤਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਸੁ ਕਰਾਇਆ ॥

तै ही दुरगा साजि कै दैता दा नासु कराइआ ॥

O Lord! By creating Durga, Thou hast caused the destruction of demons.

ਤੈਥੋਂ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਰਾਮ ਲੈ ਨਾਲ ਬਾਣਾ ਦਹਸਿਰੁ ਘਾਇਆ ॥

तैथों ही बलु राम लै नाल बाणा दहसिरु घाइआ ॥

Rama received power from Thee and he killed Ravana with arrows.

ਤੈਥੋਂ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਲੈ ਕੰਸੁ ਕੇਸੀ ਪਕੜਿ ਗਿਰਾਇਆ ॥

तैथों ही बलु क्रिसन लै कंसु केसी पकड़ि गिराइआ ॥

Krishna received power from Thee and he threw down Kansa by catching his hair.

ਬਡੇ ਬਡੇ ਮੁਨਿ ਦੇਵਤੇ ਕਈ ਜੁਗ ਤਿਨੀ ਤਨੁ ਤਾਇਆ ॥

बडे बडे मुनि देवते कई जुग तिनी तनु ताइआ ॥

The great sages and gods, even practising great austerities for several ages;

ਕਿਨੀ ਤੇਰਾ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੨॥

किनी तेरा अंतु न पाइआ ॥२॥

None could know Thy end.2.

I have barely walked into Chandi di Vaar and there are clear instructions not to praise these devta/devis. Durga was created to destroy the demons, but what did Durga do. She also fell victim to pride like here counter part Devta (Krishna, Rama). Let's listen

ਪਉੜੀ ॥

पउड़ी ॥

PAURI

ਦੁਰਗਾ ਬੈਣ ਸੁਣੰਦੀ ਹੱਸੀ ਹੜਹੜਾਇ ॥

दुरगा बैण सुणंदी ह्सी हड़हड़ाइ ॥

Listening to these words (of Indra), Durga laughed heartily.

ਓਹੀ ਸੀਹੁ ਮੰਗਾਇਆ ਰਾਕਸ ਭਖਣਾ ॥

ओही सीहु मंगाइआ राकस भखणा ॥

She sent for that lion, who was she devourer of demons.

ਚਿੰਤਾ ਕਰਹੁ ਨ ਕਾਈ ਦੇਵਾ ਨੂੰ ਆਖਿਆ ॥

चिंता करहु न काई देवा नूं आखिआ ॥

She said to gods, "Do not worry mother any more.

ਰੋਹ ਹੋਈ ਮਹਾ ਮਾਈ ਰਾਕਸਿ ਮਾਰਣੇ ॥੫॥

रोह होई महा माई राकसि मारणे ॥५॥

For killing the demons, the great mother exhibited great fury.5.

Durga laughed in pride saying to Indra I will kill the demons. This is a show of pride no better than Krishna and Rama exihibited. Read Bachittar Natak and Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji says Vaheguru sent me into this world and I could not achieve anything without Vaheguru's blessing. Durga did not realize she is just another pond like Krishna in this chess match. After the above pauri the battle between the demons and Durga begins. Why would Durga praise herself before starting the battle? She is part of creation and not the GREAT MOTHER (CREATOR).

One of the last lines of Chandi di Vaar also makes it clear that Durga is not the mother, but the he who created her is the great mother.

ਚਉਦਹ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਛਾਇਆ ਜਸੁ ਜਗਮਾਤ ਦਾ ॥

चउदह लोकां छाइआ जसु जगमात दा ॥

The praise of the mother of the universe spread over all the fourteen worlds.

At the end of the war Indra was crowned again as the king. No praise was given to Durga for her so called warrior skills. It was a drama staged by Vaheguru to show the devta and devis that you are not in charge here, I am.

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WJKK WJKF

At the end of Chandi Di Vaar it says "Durga path banaya sabay paurian || Fir na jooni aaya jin eh gaaya ||55||

Is the meaning of this literally how its's translated or does it get deeper? Does it mean mukhti or something else?

Sorry if this's been asked before, I couldn't find an answer.

WJKK WJKF

Chaupai Sahib aswell - Hu Jo Ek Baar Chaupai Ko Kahe and Ramkali M3 Anand Sahib - Dukh Rog Santaap Utere Sunee Sachee Bani. What about Baoli Sahib Amritsar - do 84 japji sahib and no more transmigration.

The thread has gone off the topic. IMHO the answer is it is true - fer na joonia ayaa jin eh gayaa

Satguru's bani is agaadbodh

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Why would Guru Sahib praise Durga the goddess?

I pretty much agree with sikhiseeker as to the answer of this. And their answer also answers your response in my opinion. Also I I said my post in 'Bhagauti and Durga' which I refrained from copying and pasting. In my opinion it's simple, Durga is a manifestation of the Bir ras if Vahiguruji and nothing wrong with praising that. It's not Devi worship or 'hinduisation', and single lines just like 'there is no hindu, no Muslim' if quoted by themselves can and are massively taken out of context that's why whole texts should be read and put together. I'm sorry if that offends you it's just my opinion. Anyway hope our answers have helped the person who posted. Thank you.

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Before this goes completely side ways. Let's start at the beginning of Chandi di Vaar. Simple question. Why did Vaheguru cause the demons to take over the kingdom of devta? Here is the answer.

ਅਭਿਮਾਨੁ ਉਤਾਰਨ ਦੇਵਤਿਆਂ ਮਹਿਖਾਸੁਰ ਸੁੰਭ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥

अभिमानु उतारन देवतिआं महिखासुर सु्मभ उपाइआ ॥

Mahishasura and Sumbh were created for removing the pride of the gods (Indra, Krishna, Rama, etc).

These devta were full of ego and thought to themselves to be the Supreme Being (no one is greater than us). Before this line Guru Sahib says these devta do not understand Vaheguru. Here it is

ਬਡੇ ਬਡੇ ਮੁਨਿ ਦੇਵਤੇ ਕਈ ਜੁਗ ਤਿਨੀ ਤਨੁ ਤਾਇਆ ॥

बडे बडे मुनि देवते कई जुग तिनी तनु ताइआ ॥

The great sages and gods, even practising great austerities for several ages;

ਕਿਨੀ ਤੇਰਾ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੨॥

किनी तेरा अंतु न पाइआ ॥२॥

None could know Thy end.2.

Those that say Guru Sahib is praising Durga need to focus on these lines where Guru Sahib says Krishna and Rama received the power from Vaheguru. The praise goes directly to the one that gave the power not the puppets (devta).

ਤੈ ਹੀ ਦੁਰਗਾ ਸਾਜਿ ਕੈ ਦੈਤਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਸੁ ਕਰਾਇਆ ॥

तै ही दुरगा साजि कै दैता दा नासु कराइआ ॥

O Lord! By creating Durga, Thou hast caused the destruction of demons.

ਤੈਥੋਂ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਰਾਮ ਲੈ ਨਾਲ ਬਾਣਾ ਦਹਸਿਰੁ ਘਾਇਆ ॥

तैथों ही बलु राम लै नाल बाणा दहसिरु घाइआ ॥

Rama received power from Thee and he killed Ravana with arrows.

ਤੈਥੋਂ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਲੈ ਕੰਸੁ ਕੇਸੀ ਪਕੜਿ ਗਿਰਾਇਆ ॥

तैथों ही बलु क्रिसन लै कंसु केसी पकड़ि गिराइआ ॥

Krishna received power from Thee and he threw down Kansa by catching his hair.

ਬਡੇ ਬਡੇ ਮੁਨਿ ਦੇਵਤੇ ਕਈ ਜੁਗ ਤਿਨੀ ਤਨੁ ਤਾਇਆ ॥

बडे बडे मुनि देवते कई जुग तिनी तनु ताइआ ॥

The great sages and gods, even practising great austerities for several ages;

ਕਿਨੀ ਤੇਰਾ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੨॥

किनी तेरा अंतु न पाइआ ॥२॥

None could know Thy end.2.

I have barely walked into Chandi di Vaar and there are clear instructions not to praise these devta/devis. Durga was created to destroy the demons, but what did Durga do. She also fell victim to pride like here counter part Devta (Krishna, Rama). Let's listen

ਪਉੜੀ ॥

पउड़ी ॥

PAURI

ਦੁਰਗਾ ਬੈਣ ਸੁਣੰਦੀ ਹੱਸੀ ਹੜਹੜਾਇ ॥

दुरगा बैण सुणंदी ह्सी हड़हड़ाइ ॥

Listening to these words (of Indra), Durga laughed heartily.

ਓਹੀ ਸੀਹੁ ਮੰਗਾਇਆ ਰਾਕਸ ਭਖਣਾ ॥

ओही सीहु मंगाइआ राकस भखणा ॥

She sent for that lion, who was she devourer of demons.

ਚਿੰਤਾ ਕਰਹੁ ਨ ਕਾਈ ਦੇਵਾ ਨੂੰ ਆਖਿਆ ॥

चिंता करहु न काई देवा नूं आखिआ ॥

She said to gods, "Do not worry mother any more.

ਰੋਹ ਹੋਈ ਮਹਾ ਮਾਈ ਰਾਕਸਿ ਮਾਰਣੇ ॥੫॥

रोह होई महा माई राकसि मारणे ॥५॥

For killing the demons, the great mother exhibited great fury.5.

Durga laughed in pride saying to Indra I will kill the demons. This is a show of pride no better than Krishna and Rama exihibited. Read Bachittar Natak and Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji says Vaheguru sent me into this world and I could not achieve anything without Vaheguru's blessing. Durga did not realize she is just another pond like Krishna in this chess match. After the above pauri the battle between the demons and Durga begins. Why would Durga praise herself before starting the battle? She is part of creation and not the GREAT MOTHER (CREATOR).

One of the last lines of Chandi di Vaar also makes it clear that Durga is not the mother, but the he who created her is the great mother.

ਚਉਦਹ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਛਾਇਆ ਜਸੁ ਜਗਮਾਤ ਦਾ ॥

चउदह लोकां छाइआ जसु जगमात दा ॥

The praise of the mother of the universe spread over all the fourteen worlds.

At the end of the war Indra was crowned again as the king. No praise was given to Durga for her so called warrior skills. It was a drama staged by Vaheguru to show the devta and devis that you are not in charge here, I am.

WJKK WJKF

What is evident is the warrior skill base given to Durga mata by Akal Purakh, hence why this entity was able to defeat the other force being demons created by waheguru again, both these creations are from the basis matter of the god partical.

Just how we as sikhs can credit the khalsa fauj with praise of their achievement in and out of battle, is the very same way that we can praise the Durga mata for her undeniable warrior spirit and skill. This gian and shakti for both the khalsa and Durga mata only capable due to Akal Purakh waheguru, the same also for the demons.

Just because you praise someone or something on the boundaries of sikhi is not blasphemy in a sense. I admire the devotion of the prophet Abraham, this does not make me a member of the Abrahamic faith, the very fact that Durga mata fought against demon spirits with whatever advanced weaponry calls for praise of her actions. They deserve our namashakaar and respect for the era in which this occurred within Akal purakhs "theatre" as do the khalsa and many other people around the world like the soldiers who gave their life's in ww2.

WJKK WJKF

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WJKK WJKF,

I think what has been lost in this topic is worship and praising are two very different things. I believe that the raw power of Durga mata is always in support of the khalsa whenever it is needed, waheguru is the viewer to whatever is being played out and the creator of both sukh and right, there always has to be to opposing sides for warfare, but both are the creation of waheguru. The worship of anyone other than waheguru is condemned, however praise of ones actions are not, whatever form of creation being human or another extra terrestrial race. It is evident in both gurbani and Sri Dasam Granth, praise and critism are given to the devte and devia, as again they had imperfections. The analogies of the devia being the sweepers of waheguru demonstrate that such a high knowledgeable creation of waheguru, with much more intellect than ours is simply compared to a humble sweeper of waheguru. It is to demonstrate the greatness of the almighty in contrast to something which is much more greater than us. It is only a gurmukh who is void of the normal process after death set by the laws of dharma, hence why dharam raj and his jam dhoot have no jurisdiction over a true gurmukh.

WJKK WJKF

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According to sant gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale gurmat vidya maartand katha where he quoted from amar kosh and indicated bhaugati to have four meaning -


1. Akaal purkh including all sargun aspects (sargun and nirgun is one non dual ikongkar leaving no room for duality)

2. Kirpan- Sri Sahib (sargun aspect)

3. Bhagvati durga Chandi (sargun aspect/femine sargun aspect of akaal purkh)

4. Aad Shakti( shakti maya-sargun aspect-shiv shakti)


All four forms of interpretations are accepted and used depending on the context of gurbani in sri dasam granth sahib, you cannot confine bhaugti to (nirgun only when clearly in shabd its mentioning sargun manifestations of that nirgun) and and overall you cannot confine ad shakti to one sargun aspect while totally rejecting other sargun aspects which is all sargun personification of aad shakti/akaal purkh.

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WJKK WJKF,

I think what has been lost in this topic is worship and praising are two very different things. I believe that the raw power of Durga mata is always in support of the khalsa whenever it is needed, waheguru is the viewer to whatever is being played out and the creator of both sukh and right, there always has to be to opposing sides for warfare, but both are the creation of waheguru. The worship of anyone other than waheguru is condemned, however praise of ones actions are not, whatever form of creation being human or another extra terrestrial race. It is evident in both gurbani and Sri Dasam Granth, praise and critism are given to the devte and devia, as again they had imperfections. The analogies of the devia being the sweepers of waheguru demonstrate that such a high knowledgeable creation of waheguru, with much more intellect than ours is simply compared to a humble sweeper of waheguru. It is to demonstrate the greatness of the almighty in contrast to something which is much more greater than us. It is only a gurmukh who is void of the normal process after death set by the laws of dharma, hence why dharam raj and his jam dhoot have no jurisdiction over a true gurmukh.

WJKK WJKF

Exactly, this is key point praising and worshipping are two very different things. I tried to highlight similiar point in other thread of aad shakti last year.

Sri guru gobind singh ji in jaap sahib and akaal ustat doing namaskar to whole creation as creator and creation are not seperate, creator is infused in creation..

Sri guru gobind singh ji praising sargun parkriti which is functioning because of shakti/force/energy-aad shakti of akaal purkh/chaitan-consciouness of akaal purkh behind that creation.

ਜਲੇ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਥਲੇ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਉਰੇ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਬਨੇ ਹਰੀ ॥੧॥੫੧॥

जले हरी ॥ थले हरी ॥ उरे हरी ॥ बने हरी ॥१॥५१॥

The Lord is in water. The Lord is on land. The Lord is in the heart. The Lord is in the forests.1.51.

ਗਿਰੇ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਗੁਫੇ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਛਿਤੇ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਨਭੇ ਹਰੀ ॥੨॥੫੨॥

गिरे हरी ॥ गुफे हरी ॥ छिते हरी ॥ नभे हरी ॥२॥५२॥

The Lord is in he mountains. The Lord is in the cave. The Lord is in he earth. The Lord is in the sky. 2.52.

ਈਹਾਂ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਉਹਾਂ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਜਿਮੀ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਜਮਾ ਹਰੀ ॥੩॥੫੩॥

ईहां हरी ॥ उहां हरी ॥ जिमी हरी ॥ जमा हरी ॥३॥५३॥

The Lord is in here. The Lord is there. The Lord is in the earth. The Lord is in the sky. 3.53.

ਅਲੇਖ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਅਭੇਖ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਅਦੋਖ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਅਦ੍ਵੈਖ ਹਰੀ ॥੪॥੫੪॥

अलेख हरी ॥ अभेख हरी ॥ अदोख हरी ॥ अद्वैख हरी ॥४॥५४॥

The Lord is Accountless. The Lord is guiseless. The Lord is blemishless. The Lord is sans duality.4.54.

ਅਕਾਲ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਅਪਾਲ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਅਛੇਦ ਹਰੀ ॥ ਅਭੇਦ ਹਹੀ ॥੫॥੫੫॥

अकाल हरी ॥ अपाल हरी ॥ अछेद हरी ॥ अभेद हही ॥५॥५५॥

The Lord is non-temporal. The Lord cannot be reated. The Lord is Indestructible. The Lord`s secrets cannot be known. 5.55.

We all know guru maharaj isn't worshipping jale (water) or thale (earth) but praising hari behind creation (creator is infused in creation-karta purkh). Key point here is in sikhi you cannot remove creator (kartapurkh) from its creation..!!

Not sure why sikhs get so insecure and paranoid where gurbani is praising akaal purkh sargun manifestation..

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Gyani sher singh ji explains aad shakti of vahiguroo in gurmat:


For understanding purposes, he gaves the example of bijli-electric current, backdrop shakti/force/energy essence (tat gyan) of akaal purkh-karta purkh is same however it radiants in many various ways/different levels.


For example- only 80 w of electricity can go in 80 w bulb (thats what it capacity is) is obviously lower than generator which also uses electricity has more capacity to harness, however what remains the same tat gyan-back drop remains the same in both bulb and generator which is electricity-aad shakti behind it.


In sri dasam guru granth, credit/praise is given where its due (be it historical female chandi/durga - bhaugati-sri sahib/bhagvati female sargun aspect of akaal purkh) by keeping the backdrop(essence/non dualistic-Ikongkar-creator in its creation-not confined to but its always there) in mind.

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