Hindus Wearing The Kara

[Kira]

Kira

Please refer to this thread on Dasam Granth

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/186-dasam-granth-a-historical-perspective/

Other then Akaal Ustat, Jaap Sahib and a few other prayers, I do not believe Sri Dasam Granth Ji was created by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Personally I've never seen any Gurdwara having it. At this point, I do not believe in it. Secondly it is being used as a vehicle by Hindus such as Preet to align Sikhism with Hinduism.

IMHO we Sikhs should completely reject Sri Dasam Granth Ji.

Interesting. I'll have to read a bit more on that. My knowledge of the Dasam Granth is somewhat limited to Bittchar Natak, Jaap Sahib an the chaubi avatar, Akal Utstat I guess for since i've scanned it before.

I'm intrigued you mentioned it was a creation of rogue elements trying to influence Sikhism. I have an aunt and uncle who were educated in India. In terms of Sikhism their knowledge is somewhat lacking. However they can tell me quite a bit about Bani from the Dasam Granth. Weirdly enough what Japji Sahib entitles is still a mystery to them.

[Balkaar]

Interesting. I'll have to read a bit more on that. My knowledge of the Dasam Granth is somewhat limited to Bittchar Natak, Jaap Sahib an the chaubi avatar, Akal Utstat I guess for since i've scanned it before.

I'm intrigued you mentioned it was a creation of rogue elements trying to influence Sikhism. I have an aunt and uncle who were educated in India. In terms of Sikhism their knowledge is somewhat lacking. However they can tell me quite a bit about Bani from the Dasam Granth. Weirdly enough what Japji Sahib entitles is still a mystery to them.

They are very anomalous anomalies, your aunt and uncle. Most Sikhs who aren't acquainted with the Bani of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji haven't even heard of Sri Dasam Granth.

[Kira]

They are very anomalous anomalies, your aunt and uncle. Most Sikhs who aren't acquainted with the Bani of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji haven't even heard of Sri Dasam Granth.

Strangely enough they were familiar with Chandi Di // and what was being depicted there. When I questioned them they told me it was about a goddess doing battle. I asked them to explain what it actually meant but couldn't.

I think certain things are highlighted there more than others but it is very strange. Since coming here however they are a bit more in touch with Sikhism. Though they still carry those beliefs which are more hinducentric than Sikh centric.

strange i cant write v a r

[Quantavius]

I'll tell you one of the stories here.

In the 16th Charitar of Sri Charitropakhyaan, the tale of a Raja from the banks of the Sutlej is related. A beautiful prostitute named Ladhia fell in love with him, he being a man renowned for his principle and strict adherence to dharam, and began to plan ways to seduce him. The Raja used to receive holy men at his court, so she attired herself as a Jogini of Gorakhnath, and spread word that she was proficient in the working of magical charms. Word soon reached the maharaja, and he sent one of his manservants to fetch her in order that they could speak. She agreed, on the condition that the ruler come to her, alone. The Raja came to her abode at midnight, to find her draped in sensual garb. She began to blackmail him, saying that unless he fulfilled her sexual wiles she would cry 'thief!' and have him beaten by the village bumpkins. She underestimated the cunning of the man. He pretended to acquiesce, and she was so overwhelmed with lustful exaltation that she thought nothing of his request that she prepare a drink made with cannabis, opium and alcohol. He bid her drink it, and she did, and promptly fell unconscious upon her bed. The Maharaja left sixty coins beside her bed, and made his escape.

The moral of the story is that one's dharam is of paramount importance. Even questionable measures such as lying may have to be deployed in its defense - things aren't necessarily black and white. Premarital sex and intercourse with prostitutes are violations of this dharm. Moreover, the Maharaja could have shamed and scorned the woman, but he left her money because, even though the lie was necessary for his flight, he had wronged her by deceiving her (Karma, everything that you reap, you will sow), and he also pitied the wretched woman. The other moral therefore is forgiveness and compassion.

This is a valuable and instructive tale, if you're open minded. I suspect that the people who are disgusted by it react to it in the way that they do because they're secretly aroused, and they choose to direct the unceremonious revulsion they feel towards themselves for being so filthy-minded onto the Tenth King's Bani to expiate their own guilt. The problem is these readers and their polluted minds, not the Bani itself.

Normally, I'd have been concerned that this was diverting the thread off topic. However its been off topic for at least 10 pages now, what's one more? lol

Lets get this straight. This is a Maharaja but it appears the Maharaja is powerless against a common prostitute?

1. Why must the Maharaja obey her request for coming alone in the first place? Who is the Maharaja here and who is the prostitute? Could the Maharaja not simply instruct her to do his bidding?

2. Why did the Maharaja fear this common prostitutes black mailing? Since he being the Maharaja, could he not have her arrested and given a good trashing while in jail? Once again, who is the one here with the power? The Maharaja or the prostitute?

3. How can someone be so stupid to prepare a drink laced with cannabis and then drink it after being told to do so? This is borderline retard.

4. Why did the Maharaja leave sixty coins at her bedside? What was the purpose and it does not logically make sense as he owed her nothing. Why didn't the Maharaja get her arrested instead after she passed out?

5. If premarital sex with a prostitute is against dharam, why did the Maharaja obey her and meet her alone? What do you think is going to happen when a woman calls you to meet her all alone in the night? Some studying in the library? LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm sorry but the moral that you highlighted is pure nonsense. IMHO, a righteous person with high morals who is very concerned about premarital sex, would have not agreed to meet a woman all alone in the night in the very first place, no matter what the reason unless maybe life and death issue. Anybody with an an ounce of intellect can see nothing good coming out of such an endevour. This Maharaja was willing to gamble his morals in order to learn some magic. I'm sorry but I find this whole story ludicrous.

[Balkaar]

Lets get this straight. This is a Maharaja but it appears the Maharaja is powerless against a common prostitute?

1. Why must the Maharaja obey her request for coming alone in the first place? Who is the Maharaja here and who is the prostitute? Could the Maharaja not simply instruct her to do his bidding?

2. Why did the Maharaja fear this common prostitutes black mailing? Since he being the Maharaja, could he not have her arrested and given a good trashing while in jail? Once again, who is the one here with the power? The Maharaja or the prostitute?

3. How can someone be so stupid to prepare a drink laced with cannabis and then drink it after being told to do so? This is borderline retard.

4. Why did the Maharaja leave sixty coins at her bedside? What was the purpose and it does not logically make sense as he owed her nothing. Why didn't the Maharaja get her arrested instead after she passed out?

5. If premarital sex with a prostitute is against dharam, why did the Maharaja obey her and meet her alone? What do you think is going to happen when a woman calls you to meet her all alone in the night? Some studying in the library? LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm sorry but the moral that you highlighted is pure nonsense. IMHO, a righteous person with high morals who is very concerned about premarital sex, would have not agreed to meet a woman all alone in the night in the very first place, no matter what the reason unless maybe life and death issue. Anybody with an an ounce of intellect can see nothing good coming out of such an endevour. This Maharaja was willing to gamble his morals in order to learn some magic. I'm sorry but I find this whole story ludicrous.

1. Why is that so odd? It isn't unheard of for Maharajas to prostrate themselves before saints (don't forget he didn't know she was a prostitute, he thought she was a powerful mystic). Even Maharaja Ranjit Singh was willing to allow himself to be lashed by Akali Phoola Singh, the Jathedar of Akaal Takhat.

2. If a woman calls out "thief", and the stupid village bumpkins come rushing in to find a woman weeping pitifully in a state of wild agitation, and the accused thief shouting "I'm no thief, I'm the king" when he is entirely without his royal retinue and royal garment, who are they going to believe? My money is on the crying woman.

3. People do stupid things. She was so overcome by her kaam that she lost control of her senses. Consider that another moral of the story, a lesson on the dangers of lust. You probably don't understand her actions because you've never felt such an emotion as she did. Admittedly, I have never felt it either, but I suppose we should count ourselves lucky.

4. I've already told you, he may have had to lie in order to escape her clutches, but this didn't diminish the fact that lying is still bad. It was an acknowledgement of his wrongdoing, and also a demonstration of his pity for this very pitiable creature. I wouldn't have done it either, but I hope its not presumptuous of me to assume that you and I are hardly towering paragons of morality, as the protagonist of this story is reputed to be.

5. I told you, he didn't know she was actually a prostitute, he thought she was an acclaimed Jogini. People trust the holy men and women.

Why shouldn't a righteous person be alone with a woman at night? If they are righteous, they're hardly going to try and assault her. Besides, I never said that the Maharaja was an intelligent man, only a good man. I also never let on that this tale was factual. I ought to have mentioned that some of the fault should also be apportioned to the Maharaja.

[Quantavius]

1. Why is that so odd? It isn't unheard of for Maharajas to prostrate themselves before saints (don't forget he didn't know she was a prostitute, he thought she was a powerful mystic). Even Maharaja Ranjit Singh was willing to allow himself to be lashed by Akali Phoola Singh, the Jathedar of Akaal Takhat.

Sorry, no. The comparison between some woman with supposedly magical powers and Akali Phoola Singh is absurd. Akali Phoola Singh is a respected figure with authority in Sikhism and has been bestowed the power by the Sangat to even punish a King. Who is this woman? Just because she supposedly has some magical powers, a King is willing to do her bidding? Please.

2. If a woman calls out "thief", and the stupid village bumpkins come rushing in to find a woman weeping pitifully in a state of wild agitation, and the accused thief shouting "I'm no thief, I'm the king" when he is entirely without his royal retinue and royal garment, who are they going to believe? My money is on the crying woman.

And they can't recognize their own King??? LOL! At the very least he could have stationed some guards nearby. This story is getting more ludicrous.

3. People do stupid things. She was so overcome by her kaam that she lost control of her senses. Consider that another moral of the story, a lesson on the dangers of lust. You probably don't understand her actions because you've never felt such an emotion as she did. Admittedly, I have never felt it either, but I suppose we should count ourselves lucky.

What a load nonsense. LOL! I'm guessing you've obviously have never been in relationship. Nobody gets sooooo horny to the point they drink a laced with drugs that too knowingly. Dude, being horny does not make you that stupid nor does it retards your thinking.

4. I've already told you, he may have had to lie in order to escape her clutches, but this didn't diminish the fact that lying is still bad. It was an acknowledgement of his wrongdoing, and also a demonstration of his pity for this very pitiable creature. I wouldn't have done it either, but I hope its not presumptuous of me to assume that you and I are hardly towering paragons of morality, as the protagonist of this story is reputed to be.

I don't see any 'towering morality' by leaving 60 coins by the bedside of someone who just tried to frame you.

5. I told you, he didn't know she was actually a prostitute, he thought she was an acclaimed Jogini. People trust the holy men and women.

Why shouldn't a righteous person be alone with a woman at night? If they are righteous, they're hardly going to try and assault her. Besides, I never said that the Maharaja was an intelligent man, only a good man. I also never let on that this tale was factual. I ought to have mentioned that some of the fault should also be apportioned to the Maharaja.

She being a prostitute or not is irrelevant. Who goes to see a lone woman in the night all alone and not expect to be in a compromising situation or at least suspect something amiss? So if tomorrow some guy tells your wife to meet him all alone in his in the night in his house, you would be ok with it? LOL! You're just lying to yourself in order to give some credence to this story.

Why do we Sikhs need to read a fictional story/event (that too not a very good story, full of absurdities and nonsense) when we have real life stories involving our Gurus? Avoidance of lust is all ready mentioned in SGGS Ji and our Sakhias. Why do we need to refer to this types of silly fictional tale?

Furthermore, none of our Gurus indulged in story telling and creating fictional tales in order to impart spiritual knowledge nor is anything included in SGGS Ji. In fact, it's not part of Sikhi culture. All of a sudden Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj steps out of character and decides to create or appoint writers to create these fictional tales for Sikhs in order to gain spiritual knowledge?

Lastly, if I'm going to learn about morals, who better then our own Gurus? Why must we Sikhs refer to fictional tales in order to set our moral compass? Should we not be instead learning from our Gurus actions instead of referring to some nonsensical stories on fictional characters?

I'm sorry but I'm not convinced.

[Balkaar]

1. And they can't recognize their own King??? LOL! At the very least he could have stationed some guards nearby. This story is getting more ludicrous.

2. What a load nonsense. LOL! I'm guessing you've obviously have never been in relationship. Nobody gets sooooo horny to the point they drink a laced with drugs that too knowingly. Dude, being horny does not make you that stupid nor does it retards your thinking.

3. I don't see any 'towering morality' by leaving 60 coins by the bedside of someone who just tried to frame you.

Why do we Sikhs need to read a fictional story/event (that too not a very good story, full of absurdities and nonsense) when we have real life stories involving our Gurus? Avoidance of lust is all ready mentioned in SGGS Ji and our Sakhias. Why do we need to refer to this types of silly fictional tale?

4. Furthermore, none of our Gurus indulged in story telling and creating fictional tales in order to impart spiritual knowledge nor is anything included in SGGS Ji. In fact, it's not part of Sikhi culture. All of a sudden Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj steps out of character and decides to create or appoint writers to create these fictional tales for Sikhs in order to gain spiritual knowledge? Lastly, if I'm going to learn about morals, who better then our own Gurus? Why must we Sikhs refer to fictional tales in order to set our moral compass? Should we not be instead learning from our Gurus actions instead of referring to some nonsensical stories on fictional characters?

1. People in the medieval world would hardly have known their monarch by sight.

2. I didn't suggest that this woman's overpowering sexual urges were normal. The were completely abnormal. But there are individuals who are overwhelmed by their urges, and this story warns us against them. The point of the tale was that this crazed woman was completely obsessed with the guy.

3. Maybe there is a radical disparity in my outlook and yours, but I find it admirable. Forgive your transgressors, if there is room for forgiveness. Once he had made his escape and re-established himself at his abode, she couldn't touch him. Did Guru Amar Das not massage the foot of the man who kicked him in the back? Does that seem ludicrous to you as well?

4. Sikhi does make use of stories to disseminate Sikh teachings, for instance, the Janam Sakhiaan.

Which stories do you know of involving the Guru Sahibaan which pertain to matters of lust for Sikhs to use as a reference point on the subject (as they use the other Sakhiaan concerning the Gurus as reference points for things)? There are none. There couldn't be. Since Guru Sahib had no autobiographical experiences to offer on the matter, they would have written fictions of their own for the benefit of the Sikhs.

Why is it so difficult to believe that Guru Gobind Singh could have innovated something new and different? Was Guru Hargobind's innovation of Miri Piri and his taking up the sword not entirely unlike anything that had been done by his predecessors?

[DTF]

Balkaar Singh Bhai Sahib please read into Professor Padam's (false) allegation into who the King of Anandpur in the referred to Charitar actually (supposedly) is and I am pretty sure you will subsequently arrive at the same conclusion that Quantavius has already reached.

The intent of the writer imho was not to impart moral guidance but rather to denigrate Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj at the behest of anti-Sikh (Mughal and biprenvaad) forces. I will try expand on this later as i see that sincere Sikhs like yourself and Kira Singh that I 100% respect may have been reading rhetorical material which is purported to promote Sikhi but in fact does everything but.

[Quantavius]

1. People in the medieval world would hardly have known their monarch by sight.

And you know this how? You have a time machine and you went back and checked? Population was much lower then it is today. People knew each other. Answer the question, why coudn't the King station a couple of guards nearby?

2. I didn't suggest that this woman's overpowering sexual urges were normal. The were completely abnormal. But there are individuals who are overwhelmed by their urges, and this story warns us against them. The point of the tale was that this crazed woman was completely obsessed with the guy.

What a load of nonsense. Even porn actor and real life prostitutes don't get so horney to the point they willingly drink a drug laced drink. Horniness does not make you stupid nor does it retards your mental faculties.

3. Maybe there is a radical disparity in my outlook and yours, but I find it admirable. Forgive your transgressors, if there is room for forgiveness. Once he had made his escape and re-established himself at his abode, she couldn't touch him. Did Guru Amar Das not massage the foot of the man who kicked him in the back? Does that seem ludicrous to you as well?

Once again an absurd comparison. Guru Amar Das Ji did not seek the company of some woman in the middle of the night. What happened to Guru Amar Das Ji was an unprovoked action.

I'm sorry but I don't think it's a good for idea you to compare our Gurus to a fictional character in some story, that too with questionable character. Earlier you compared our Gurus to Martin Luther King. I hope you understand that our Gurus were not mere 'social activist'.

4. Sikhi does make use of stories to disseminate Sikh teachings, for instance, the Janam Sakhiaan.

Janam Sakhias are based on actual events and not fictional tales.

Which stories do you know of involving the Guru Sahibaan which pertain to matters of lust for Sikhs to use as a reference point on the subject (as they use the other Sakhiaan concerning the Gurus as reference points for things)? There are none. There couldn't be. Since Guru Sahib had no autobiographical experiences to offer on the matter, they would have written fictions of their own for the benefit of the Sikhs.

Why do you need a fictional 'story' to teach you about lust? Are you a child? What next? Comics? LOL!

Please see below on our Gurus teachings on lust.

• Meditate and listen to the Name of the Lord, and give it to everyone. In this way, the filth of lifetimes of karma shall be removed and egotistical pride shall vanish from your mind. Sexual desire and anger shall not seduce you and greed will depart (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 135).

• Lust, anger, egotism, jealousy and desires are eliminated by chanting the Name of Lord (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 1389).

• Renounce sexual desire, anger, falsehood and slander; forsake maya and eliminate egotistical pride. Renounce lust and promiscuity, and give up emotional attachment. Only then shall you obtain the Immaculate Lord amidst the darkness of the world. Renounce selfishness, conceit and arrogant pride, and your love for your children and spouse. Abandon your thirsty hopes and desires, and embrace love for the Lord. O Nanak, the true one shall come to dwell in your mind. Through the True Word of Shabad, you shall be absorbed in the Name of Lord (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 141).

• Sexual desire and anger are the wounds of the soul. The evil-minded ones forget the Naam, and then depart. True are the teachings of the true Guru. The body and mind are cooled and soothed by the touchstone of Truth. This is the true mark of wisdom: that one remains detached, like the water-lily, or the lotus on the water. Attuned to the Shabad, one becomes sweet, like the juice of sugarcane (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 152).

• One who commits to Naam and sees this world as merely a temporary pasture. For him, lust and anger demolish like breaking a jar of poison (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 153).

• Sexual desire, anger, greed and ego are eradicated in the Saadh Sangat (Company of the Holy), all sinful mistakes are washed away (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 194).

• He washes outwardly but his mind is filthy inside; thus he loses his place in both worlds. Here, he is engrossed in sexual desire, anger and emotional attachment; hereafter, he shall sigh and weep (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 381).

• Like the mad dog running around in all directions, the greedy person consumes everything, edible and non-edible alike. Engrossed in the intoxication of sexual desire and anger, people wander through reincarnation over and over again (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 50).

• The world is drunk, engrossed in sexual desire, anger and egotism. Seek the sanctuary of the saints, and fall at their feet; your suffering and darkness shall be removed (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 51).

• Engrossed in sexual desire, anger and egotism, one wanders around insane. When the messenger of death hits him on the head with his club, then he regrets and repents. Without the Perfect Divine Guru, one roams around like satan (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 708).

• The compassionate perfect Guru has eradicated my doubts and fears. The horrific demons, unsatisfied sexual desire and unresolved anger have been totally destroyed (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 854).

http://www.realsikhism.com/index.php?action=quotes&topicid=35&topicname=Lust

Why is it so difficult to believe that Guru Gobind Singh could have innovated something new and different? Was Guru Hargobind's innovation of Miri Piri and his taking up the sword not entirely unlike anything that had been done by his predecessors?

Once again an absurd comparison. One on fictional tales and the other on fundamental of Sikhism.

Why is it so easy for you to believe this tales are from Guru Gobind Singh Ji? Can you provide a single piece of historical evidence whereby Guruji talked about these tales to the Sangat during his time? Please cite your source.

[Quantavius]

Who was it written by then? I can see that you are wrong considering that you don't even know that I am Sikh !!

You're supposedly an Amardhari. I'm sorry but shouldn't an Amardhari posses such basic knowledge as this? And yet you believe you're in the position to preach to others when you're clearly ignorant on the subject.

Google it.