More proof marriages between white men and punjabi women often end in disasters

[californiasardar1]

2 hours ago, BhForce said:

Bro, it's because people don't want our kaum to die. If, after agreeing that quantity does matter, how can you say the above?

Totally agreed. 

But should only kids who have been doing the whole Sikh thing (kirtan, tabla, gatka, santhia, bana, so on) remain in the Sikh panth?

We should just be OK with the rest drifting into oblivion?

I think you dismiss "papis" (sinners) too quickly. These drinking monas, if you sit down and talk with them, also have a love for Guru Sahib. Maybe you'll say if they really loved Guru ji, they'd follow their Hukum. Which is true.

But why give up on them entirely?

Keep them in the orbit, so we can then reach them as necessary. If you watch the Sikh Awareness Society videos, there are many monas there. Some of them may drink. But I don't care, because they do have some level of feeling for our panth and its daughters, even if they don't have Jaap Sahib memorized.

And when you say the solution is to "connect with children from a young age": How do you propose that "we" (informed Sikhs) will get access to people's children? If the parents are already practicing, well-informed Amritdhari Sikhs, then problem already solved. By definition, the kids you want to target are those of the non-practicing Sikhs. I.e., the monas you disparage.

What I'm saying is keep the drinking monas in the Sikh orbit, so then when they have kids, and are a bit more conservative (everybody settles down when they have kids and they start thinking about teaching the kid morality), then we can swoop down and offer our "services" (free kirtan class or whatever).

And another thing: Nobody's saying that a drinking moni should marry a teetotalling Singh. Rather, marry at your same level of Sikhi.

 

1.  We need quantity AND quality.  Yes, there are relatively non-religious Sikhs who still contribute to the survival of our community.  But at some point, when the quality is diluted too much, what value do they add?  KS Brar technically contributes to our quantity, but does he really add anything?  There needs to be SOME connection to Sikhi, and my issue is when things have disintegrated to the point that there is virtually NO connection whatsoever for some people. 

Anyway, I think at all levels, efforts should be made to bring people closer.  Get monay who drink and party to go to the gurdwara occasionally and take some interest in Sikh issues.  Get monay who go to the gurdwara regularly and do sewa to keep their kesh.  Get people who keep their kesh to memorize path and take amrit.  You get the picture.

 

2.  I don't think connecting children with Sikhi is limited to making them 100% observant and teaching them to do kirtan and patth, etc.  But there needs to be SOME connection.  There are lots of Sikhs who are far from amritdhari but have enough of a connection to Sikhi to care about it and want to pass it on in some form.  We need to get people to AT LEAST that level.  If someone is open to marrying a non-Sikh, then we haven't connected them to Sikhi enough.

 

3.  You make some good points.  I am guessing that the monay who you refer to who still exhibit some connection with Sikhi care enough to want to marry other Sikhs.  Anyway, we need AT LEAST that level.  There are many people out there who know literally nothing about Sikhi, who can't name a single Guru, who are openly atheist, etc.  When they have reached adulthood and exhibit such traits, us worrying about whether they will marry a like-minded individual who nevertheless has "singh" or "kaur" in their name is really missing the point. 

Connecting with these people from a younger age and influencing them is indeed tricky (as you said, how do we get access to such people?).  In some cases, we may get access when they occasionally are brought to the gurdwara by their parents.  The few times that that happens, there needs to be something to draw them in (this is where I think the English parchar that we see by the Basics of Sikhi people, for instance, could help a lot).  Another opportunity could be university.  When young people leave home and go to uni, it is a very pivotal time, and the friends they make can dramatically alter their paths in life.  More religious minded Sikhs should try to seek out nominal non-religious Sikhs, befriend them, and (very gently) expose them a bit to Sikhi.  Invite them to Sikh Student Association events, etc.  Anyway, how to engage young people whose families do not teach them about Sikhi is a difficult question to answer, and it deserves a lively discussion of its own.  I don't pretend to have all the answers, and I'd like to see some debate about this.

 

Finally, I am not disparaging monay.  Sadly, monay are the future of our panth.  In my lifetime we will probably see monay SGPC members, a mona Punjab CM, etc.  If we accept this, we have to find a way to keep them engaged (a dating website targeted towards gursikhs is not going to appeal to monay who like to party and drink, for example).

I should have been more careful in that I was referring to monay who have no connection whatsoever with Sikhi (and therefore want to marry non-Sikhs) in my earlier comment.  I did not mean to lump all monay together.  Apologies for the mistake.