Gurmat vs Evolution

[RajKaregaKhalsa1]

I read this by Bhai Kulbir Singh ji and it is clearly shows that evolution is against Sikhi. 

"I read the theory of evolution many years ago and one of the notion it preaches is that species can evolute to higher species e.g. humans have originated from apes. This theory does not seem to be according to Gurmat because all the 8.4 million life forms were formed at once and not through evolution. Some life forms may be active and some dormant, at a given time but no life forms converted to other life forms. It just can't. Dogs cannot give birth to cats and insects cannot give birth to lizards.

The human form has Dasam Duaar, Nabh Kamal, that no other life form has. If we believe in theory of evolution, we will then have to believe that Dasam Duaar and Nabh Kamal were products of evolution and formed itself. Furthermore, matter is not animate and as thus does not have intelligence, nor it can think or plan. The theory of evolution is totally contrary to Gurmat. In the evolution theory, matter is intelligent and in Gurmat theory, matter is dead.

The evolution theory as invented by Charles Darwin and as propagated by science today is not in accordance with Gurmat. Gurmat believes in the evolution or devolution of the Jeev-Aatma depending on its Karma but the life-forms or the species don't evolve into something else. Gurbani says that the whole creation has 8.4 million life forms (life forms or Joonis are not same as species) and this has been the truth from the beginning. At any given time there have been 8.4 million life forms. If we believe that one life form evolves to another, then there would be an additional life-form thereby violating the Gurmat principle that states that there are fixed 8.4 million life forms.

These Chaurasi Lakh life forms not all active at any given time. Some are dormant and some are active but all are existent at any given time.

Gurmat does not promote the idea that humans have evolved from Baandars (monkeys). Jo kichh paaiya so ika Vaar.

The kids brought up in Western countries have become Mutaasir (influenced) by the modern education that promotes such anti Gurmat notions like evolution and homosexuality etc.

ਲਖ ਚਉਰਾਸੀਹ ਮੇਦਨੀ ਘਟੈ ਨ ਵਧੈ ਉਤਾਹਿ ॥

The above Pankiti clearly states not only that there are 8.4 million life forms but also that this number does not go up or down. There are more such Pankitis as well but for a Sikh just one Pankiti will suffice.

Now if we believe that one life-form can evolve or devolve to something else, then we have to accept that a new life-form has been created and this will violate the above Hukam of Guru Sahib.

I am not an expert on the evolution theory but know that one of the claims it has made is that humans have possibly evolved from Baandars (monkeys). The human life form is very special and as per Gurbani this life form is the doorway to Vaheguru and only in this life form it is possible to meet Vaheguru and for this reason this body has secret Dasam Duaar or the mystical tenth door. How did the genetic mutation or whatever it is called, caused to create a life form that contains something as specific as the Dasam Duaar?

It is the Jeev-Aatma that goes through different life forms and but the life forms don't evolve to different life forms. A cat is going to stay a cat and will not become a dog, no matter what. Yes within the parameters of the cat life form, it may become large, small, Black, White etc. but it cannot become a different life form.

What to talk about and trust science that changes every now and then. Now with the discovery of the so called "god particle" it has rendered many old theories obsolete. The theory of evolution is just a theory and nothing else. Most of it including its concept of the survival of the fittest is garbage. According to Gurbani, Vaheguru is Deena Naath and Ghareeb Nivaaz. He would never allow the survival of the strong just because of their strongness. He according to His will may many times let the biggest underdog to survive and let the fittest perish. Darwin's evolution theory is for Manmukhs who believe that Vaheguru jee is not leading the world and that it came into being and evolved to this level as part of some accidental chemical reactions. Can we believe such nonsense when we know that even a leaf does not move without Vaheguru's will?

Kulbir Singh"

we should be telling this to more people and not just agreeing with whatever scientists say. The theory of evolution is nonsense when you think about it and I'm going to link some videos about it and how it is false and how this directly proves an intelligent designer

 

 

Even further, apparently even if evolution were to be a viable process, it would take longer than it takes the sun to burn out. And that doesn't even account for Dasam Duaar etc.

Be aware of these theories and know that they are wrong.

[MisterrSingh]

I agree that we should keep an open mind about scientific theories that are prone to the limits of their respective eras, but Kulbir Singh's misunderstanding of even the basics doesn't inspire confidence in his conclusions. Seriously, he trips up in the first paragraph.

Generally, it is unwise to travel the route of Islamic "scholars" and religious guides by attacking theories that seemingly are at odds with religious teachings. Eventually we'll foster a climate in Sikhi where we become the opposite of what our faith is admired for: rationality and common sense. These attempts to create a counter narrative are the signs of either a devious mind purposefully trying to defame Sikhi as a stone age irrelevance, or an idle mind with too much spare time on their hands. 

[Wicked Warrior]

Not watched the videos but that post reeks of misunderstanding of evolution. Science doesn’t say we came from monkeys. It says we came from a common ancestor. 

Evolution is about change. Humans have changed - we are taller than humans 500 years ago. Look at wolves and dogs - dogs are essentially domesticated wolves. These are smaller changes and have happened over a relatively small timescale. Not everything changes or does so “quickly” - sharks, for example, have been around before there were trees. 

 

Kulbir Singh states there’s 8.4m species and that this is fixed. He states there can be no new forms of life. But look at how many species have become extinct. Tens of thousands have thought be extinct since humans have been around. The western black rhino is no longer around. Nor is the Javan tiger. Even the Dodo was fine until humans landed in Australia.

 

Kulbir Singh states that everything must happen in Vaheguru’s will but for me it would not be outside of Vaheguru’s power to create through evolution. If the “underdog” must survive and win, then why do poorly and sick children die? They haven’t even a chance of winning the game of life. Shouldn’t Vaheguru help them? In truth, He supports whomever He wishes.

The term “theory” gets tossed around by laymen as another term for “idea”. Theory is an explanation for events and can be used to predict future events. 

Example:

fact or observation - if I let go of this apple, it will fall to the ground

hypothesis - there must be something causing the apple to fall

theory - an attractive force causes objects to fall to the ground. It can be calculated and has a value of 9.8m/s2 (on Earth).

law - two objects sill exert a force on each othe which proportional to the masses of the objects and inversely proportional to the distance between them

 

At the end of the day, all scientific knowledge is the accumulation of time and effort of the human mind. It is not going to be perfect and is always open to revision. Only Vaheguru’s knowledge is perfect. 

[Akalifauj]

8.4 lakh Joon has nothing to do with evolution. 

[Guest]

I knew the content of this thread was messed up just by reading uptil the third line and rest of content just proved I was right.

Kulbir Singh , (who is he btw ?) doesn't understand evolution ! 

Dogs don't give birth to cats and vice-versa. Right !! theory of evolution never said it either

And BTW, let me break one more common misconception : Humans have NOT descended from monkeys ! Theory of evolution never said humans are descended from monkeys. 

Infact what it states is : Humans , Monkeys, Chimpanzees share a common Ape ancestor. Infact if you go back enough in time, all mammals had a common ancestor , and if you go back further , reptiles and mammals had a common ancestor some time 22 crore years back or so . If you go back even further , you will notice amphibians slowly evolved into reptiles . If you go back even further some 30 crore yrs back , first fishes slowly crawled out as amphibians . The first living cells lived some 380 crore years back ! 

Evolution is a tremendously slowwww process !

Evolution does not state how life started, what it does attempt and pretty successfully the complexity of life.

 If you want to know how life started , evolution theory won't answer it . Instead You should refer "Miller Urey experiment" for that , as to how simple chemicals found in ancient earth led to development of organic molecules and proteins . 

Honestly Kulbir Singh is half-read on evolution , or worse, has not even read it.

Secondly , lets come to spiritual point of view. 

Gurbani refers to the concept of Shiva-Shakti repeatedly . Shiva is consciousness (our mann) , Shakti is the matter/energy . Consciousness (mann) and matter (physical body) evolved together side by side all these billions of years. 

Thats why you see progressive levels of consciousness from plant level to humans . 

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ਲਖ ਚਉਰਾਸੀਹ ਮੇਦਨੀ ਘਟੈ ਨ ਵਧੈ ਉਤਾਹਿ ॥

Entire group of species die , and new evolve to fill their niche. Dinosaurs are dead, no ??

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Gurmat does not promote the idea that humans have evolved from Baandars (monkeys). Jo kichh paaiya so ika Vaar.

Thats a very gross interpretation of Gurbaani. It means infact the raw ingredients for an entire sequence of events to happen were put at once , then their was just play and interaction between elements and we see baani is true. The collective sum of elements on earth is same, its just chemical reactions between molecules that led to life and formation of cells. But that same elements are present. 

 

God in the form of "natural selection"  is the director of the entire evolution process in a very very subtle way.

 

This is a very nice video to understand evolution :

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

It's important to state here its possible to be awe-struck and emotional by Waheguru ji's creation AND still understand and agree with the theory of evolution. I am that kinda person.

We're not abrahamics . 

[Akalifauj]

Before the science fanatics start beating their drum. Too late already started. This tuck is from Gurbani 

ਲਖ ਚਉਰਾਸੀਹ ਮੇਦਨੀ ਘਟੈ ਨ ਵਧੈ ਉਤਾਹਿ ॥ ang 936

This line is saying 8.4 million joonis doesn't decrease or increase. 

Be careful here your PhD and science studies doesn't match up to Gurbani.   Don't turn into baba Ram Rai.  

kulbir Singh is not saying it is fixed.  This is Gurbani saying it is fixed. 

 

[RajKaregaKhalsa1]

1 hour ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

Kulbir Singh , (who is he btw ?) doesn't understand evolution ! 

He is one of the people at Gurmat Bibek, you know the ones that make YouTube videos.

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Akalifauj said:

Before the science fanatics start beating their drum. Too late already started. This tuck is from Gurbani 

ਲਖ ਚਉਰਾਸੀਹ ਮੇਦਨੀ ਘਟੈ ਨ ਵਧੈ ਉਤਾਹਿ ॥ ang 936

This line is saying 8.4 million joonis doesn't decrease or increase. 

Be careful here your PhD and science studies doesn't match up to Gurbani.   Don't turn into baba Ram Rai.  

kulbir Singh is not saying it is fixed.  This is Gurbani saying it is fixed. 

 

did you even read my response properly.

I said species die and are formed gradually. And as per current science estimates , there're around 8.7 million species which is close to 8.4 million joons. 

[JUSTAJATT]

The OP  is very misleading and there are way too many errors for me to point out.

Gurmat Vs Evolution ??  what?  GURMAT Vs MANMATT is what gurbani teaches us. The op has just characterized a "theory" as manmat, and he's done it blindly. 

The creation was created from IK.      MAYA is the product. This whole maya is in continuous motion, therefore it can change and transform. Kulbir needs to get familiar with 4 age philosophies - 4 yug that are in gurbani and veds, 

To compare GURMAT to EVOLUTION is dumbA$$ comparison, GURMAT is ALWAYS compared to MANMAT.