Ustat-the main reason behind success of baba culture

[shastarSingh]

Almost all Sikhs know that nindiya is bad,very bad. But gurbani says that ustat is also bad.

Punjab is full of deraas. These dere vaalas do so much ustat of their "brahmgyani sant baba" that the people's head begins to bow for their sant baba.

Ustat is the main reason people get attached to deraas instead of Guru Sahib.

Sikhs shud be watchful against this ustat tactic of dere vaalas.

[MisterrSingh]

This subject has been on my mind for a few years now. In some ways I think the need to hold certain people up in admiration is a universal thing. In a secular sense people of Western heritage have moved on from being captivated by religious personalities, and have moved to hanging off the words of actors, singers, sports stars. In places like India there's certainly the worship of celebrities, but the religiously-minded can't seem to relinquish their obsession with deifying Man. It's more disturbing in the case of Sikhs because we've been instructed to knock that 5hit on the head. Unfortunately, it's going to continue happening for as long as people's religious or spiritual beliefs aren't something they experience or "live" themselves. Our people want to be bestowed with spiritual gifts. Rarely do we want to earn them; something which takes effort and time. The central Sikh belief of Divine Grace even when that grace seems to have no logical consistency (or throughline relevance of preceding events) doesn't help; it encourages, in my opinion, craving shortcuts.

The problem as it has materialised (i.e. not the belief itself but the way we've allowed it to "bloom" as it were), in my opinion, is arguably attributable to the core Dharmic belief of which Sikhi adheres to, of there being no spiritual liberation without a Guru (spiritual master / guide) to lead his follower. In a time when Guru's aren't walking the earth, for a people such as ours where the abstract is very difficult to comprehend, we seek out human stand-ins who we think can fulfil that role of guide. The rest is obvious. The draw for sociopathic pakhandis trying their luck with what they know to be gullible (in some ways) and desperate people is too much to resist. It's funny in a way. At least I think it is. Great work if you can get it.

[shastarSingh]

There are many Gurbani tukks that warn us not to listen to nindiya or ustat.

Both nindiya and ustat harm us spiritually.

Only listen to ustat of Waheguru ji and Guru Sahib ji, the True Kings.

Ustat tactic is the bread butter for these dere vaalas.

Guru Sahib has given full power and autonomy to Sangat.

These dere vaalas take away that autonomy and place a sant baba in the heads of the Sangat.

[Ranjeet01]

1 hour ago, MisterrSingh said:

This subject has been on my mind for a few years now. In some ways I think the need to hold certain people up in admiration is a universal thing. In a secular sense people of Western heritage have moved on from being captivated by religious personalities, and have moved to hanging off the words of actors, singers, sports stars. In places like India there's certainly the worship of celebrities, but the religiously-minded can't seem to relinquish their obsession with deifying Man. It's more disturbing in the case of Sikhs because we've been instructed to knock that 5hit on the head. Unfortunately, it's going to continue happening for as long as people's religious or spiritual beliefs aren't something they experience or "live" themselves. Our people want to be bestowed with spiritual gifts. Rarely do we want to earn them; something which takes effort and time. The central Sikh belief of Divine Grace even when that grace seems to have no logical consistency (or throughline relevance of preceding events) doesn't help; it encourages, in my opinion, craving shortcuts.

The problem as it has materialised (i.e. not the belief itself but the way we've allowed it to "bloom" as it were), in my opinion, is arguably attributable to the core Dharmic belief of which Sikhi adheres to, of there being no spiritual liberation without a Guru (spiritual master / guide) to lead his follower. In a time when Guru's aren't walking the earth, for a people such as ours where the abstract is very difficult to comprehend, we seek out human stand-ins who we think can fulfil that role of guide. The rest is obvious. The draw for sociopathic pakhandis trying their luck with what they know to be gullible (in some ways) and desperate people is too much to resist. It's funny in a way. At least I think it is. Great work if you can get it.

I think at some base human level, we are always looking for someone to lead so we can follow them.

That is why in a lot of religions, they are always looking for a second coming

It is a form of replication of a hierarchy/pyramid, after all the human is a herd animal.

In terms of spiritual liberation the guru granth sahib is our eternal guru so we do not have follow a human, however humans are going to human. Our gurus gave us the keys to unlock ourselves out of our prison to achieve mukhti but we are reluctant to do so. It is because doing so, we get ourselves out of our comfort zone and carve a path and it is far easier to follow someone who has carved theirs.

The path to spiritual liberation is an individual pursuit (this is something I am having to come to terms with), life is a one player game.

However, even in a non-religious society and on social media, you can see the new babas being influencers where people hang to their every word. Even if religion was taken out of the question, people will gravitate to the same kind of thing in a different form.

[MisterrSingh]

11 minutes ago, Ranjeet01 said:

 Our gurus gave us the keys to unlock ourselves out of our prison to achieve mukhti but we are reluctant to do so. It is because doing so, we get ourselves out of our comfort zone and carve a path and it is far easier to follow someone who has carved theirs.

That's the problem; I don't think they have. They talk a great game in public but far too often behind closed doors these people are found wanting in bigger ways than most of the people who follow them; people, who, at least, seem to be adhering to this "chela-puna" in good faith even if it means these followers are essentially wasting a janam attaching themselves to the feet of these men.

We also have to take into account that many of these babeh promote (again, on the down-low amongst their little insider group and certainly not in public) that they are the exception to the rule, i.e. "I'm the real deal. Guru Sahib says to follow the scriptures, but don't worry about that, follow me, it's the same thing, and you'll get to where you need to." Of course, to get them to openly admit this is impossible. They'll lose their power over the people -- sometimes generations of the same family -- and ultimately they'll have to find a job or start doing some kheti-bari, lmao. First-Class airline tickets to Caneda, Amrika, and Englendh don't come cheap.

[Ranjeet01]

16 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

That's the problem; I don't think they have. They talk a great game in public but far too often behind closed doors these people are found wanting in bigger ways than most of the people who follow them; people, who, at least, seem to be adhering to this "chela-puna" in good faith even if it means these followers are essentially wasting a janam attaching themselves to the feet of these men.

We also have to take into account that many of these babeh promote (again, on the down-low amongst their little insider group and certainly not in public) that they are the exception to the rule, i.e. "I'm the real deal. Guru Sahib says to follow the scriptures, but don't worry about that, follow me, it's the same thing, and you'll get to where you need to." Of course, to get them to openly admit this is impossible. They'll lose their power over the people -- sometimes generations of the same family -- and ultimately they'll have to find a job or start doing some kheti-bari, lmao. First-Class airline tickets to Caneda, Amrika, and Englendh don't come cheap.

I think you are correct here. What it is they have done is create a perception that they have.

I have listened to a few babas on social media and some of these swami types. None of these guys agree with each other and they all contradict each other. Sometimes they have something interesting to say and sometimes they have a different point of view/ perspective that you have not seen before.

I find myself disagreeing with them and ultimately they are human too and they are as clueless as the rest of us.

However, people make these "babas" divine, when they don't realise they also have divinity in themselves.

[shastarSingh]

23 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

That's the problem; I don't think they have. They talk a great game in public but far too often behind closed doors these people are found wanting in bigger ways than most of the people who follow them; people, who, at least, seem to be adhering to this "chela-puna" in good faith even if it means these followers are essentially wasting a janam attaching themselves to the feet of these men.

We also have to take into account that many of these babeh promote (again, on the down-low amongst their little insider group and certainly not in public) that they are the exception to the rule, i.e. "I'm the real deal. Guru Sahib says to follow the scriptures, but don't worry about that, follow me, it's the same thing, and you'll get to where you need to." Of course, to get them to openly admit this is impossible. They'll lose their power over the people -- sometimes generations of the same family -- and ultimately they'll have to find a job or start doing some kheti-bari, lmao. First-Class airline tickets to Caneda, Amrika, and Englendh don't come cheap.

On the political side, GOI and Indian agencies must be happy seeing sikh Sangat come under the control of sant babaas. These babaas don't hv the guts to take pangaa with govt. Or with the army.

Dhan dhan Baba Jarnail Singh ji Bhindranwale

[Ranjeet01]

1 minute ago, shastarSingh said:

On the political side, GOI and Indian agencies must be happy seeing sikh Sangat come under the control of sant babaas. These babaas don't hv the guts to take pangaa with govt. Or with the army.

Dhan dhan Baba Jarnail Singh ji Bhindranwale

There is a simple way, just don't bother with the sant babas. Go straight to the source, take out the middle man

[shastarSingh]

I hv a Hindu friend from school time who knows lots of RSS Hindus of Ludhiana. Many of them go to nanaksar.

Did nanaksar produce any khaarrkus in 80's?

[Ranjeet01]

There have  always been these sant baba types in Punjab but it seems that over the last few decades it has mushroomed.

I think that this could be due certain factors:

As Punjab has got more materialistic and people have become more aspirational, this has resulted in increased problems such as health, wealth etc and people have got more desperate.

So they have fallen into the trap of going to these babas for a quick fix of their problems.

I wonder when there was less of rat race, less materialism, less complications and generally more contentment whether people followed these babas