Reincarnation and Sikhi

[Guest DumbIdiotBanda]

VJKK VJKF

 

Recently I have noticed people stating that reincarnation is not a sikh concept. They most often state shabads stating that you act like animals in the 84 lakh join while you are alive if you do not meditate upon Vaheguru. They say Shabads such as the one that states the different life forms you go through if you die in certain thoughts such as dying in the thoughts of mansions and houses you get reincarnated as a ghost are metaphors. I am confused about this topic so could anyone explain? 

[BhForce]

On 12/14/2022 at 6:10 PM, Guest DumbIdiotBanda said:

VJKK VJKF

 

Recently I have noticed people stating that reincarnation is not a sikh concept. They most often state shabads stating that you act like animals in the 84 lakh join while you are alive if you do not meditate upon Vaheguru. They say Shabads such as the one that states the different life forms you go through if you die in certain thoughts such as dying in the thoughts of mansions and houses you get reincarnated as a ghost are metaphors. I am confused about this topic so could anyone explain? 

The problem is that these theories promoted by the "missionaries" is that they (missionaries) don't go through Gurbani looking for what it says.

Rather, they first have made up their mind that they don't want to accept reincarnation, and then blindly misinterpret every relevant Gurbani verse.

Secondly, I'll admit there are verses that could be interpreted either way, but the problem (for them) is there are verses that simply don't fit in an anti-reincarnation theory without really stretching the meanings. The plain meanings fit a reincarnation approach.

Saying that everything is a metaphor is a copout.

You can see this right in Nitnem:

ਜੇ ਕੋ ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਵੇਮੁਖੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਪਾਵੈ ॥
ਪਾਵੈ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਰ ਥੈ ਕੋਈ ਪੁਛਹੁ ਬਿਬੇਕੀਆ ਜਾਏ ॥
ਅਨੇਕ ਜੂਨੀ ਭਰਮਿ ਆਵੈ ਵਿਣੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਪਾਏ ॥ (Anand Sahib, 22)

If anyone turns his back on the Satguru, he won't find Mukti.

He won't find Mukti even if he goes asking wisemen.

He will wander through countless lives (jooni), he won't find Mukti without the Satguru.

 

The missionaries want you to believe jooni means phases. The plain meaning is simply life. Dictionary definition:
ਜੂਨੀ ਸਰੋਤ : ਗੁਰੁਸ਼ਬਦ ਰਤਨਾਕਾਰ ਮਹਾਨ ਕੋਸ਼, ਪਬਲੀਕੇਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਊਰੋ, ਪੰਜਾਬੀ ਯੂਨੀਵਰਸਿਟੀ, ਪਟਿਆਲਾ।
ਜੂਨੀ ਦੇਖੋ, ਯੋਨਿ. ਜੀਵਾਂ ਦੀ ਉਤਪੱਤਿ ਦਾ ਸਥਾਨ. ਆਕਰ. ਜਨਮ. ਭਗ. ਦੇਖੋ, ਅਜੂਨੀ.

The word jooni is related to joni or yoni (which means birth canal or the starting point of a lifetime).

 

The reason jooni couldn't mean phase is that it's related to yoni. Meaning that Gurbani is evoking the sense of a real birth, not just a phase of life.

[BhForce]

Nature magazine says number of species in the world is about 8.7 million.

Gurbani speaks of ਚੌਰਾਸੀ ਲੱਖ ਜੂਨ (8.4 million species). This is remarkably close.

ਚਵਰਾਸੀਹ ਲਖ ਜੋਨਿ ਉਪਾਈ ਰਿਜਕੁ ਦੀਆ ਸਭ ਹੂ ਕਉ ਤਦ ਕਾ ॥

"Thou have created eighty-four lacs of species and given to them all sustenance since that very time." p1403

Note: The word joni is used. It seems quite clear that joni refers to lifeforms and not life stages (unlike what the missionaries think).

 

Just to make it even more clear:

Kabeer ji writes:

ਬਇਆਲੀਸ ਲਖ ਜੀ ਜਲ ਮਹਿ ਹੋਤੇ ਬੀਠਲੁ ਭੈਲਾ ਕਾਇ ਕਰਉ ॥੧॥

"Forty-two lacs of beings are in water. How can I bathe the Pervading Lord therein O brother." p485

So how is it that jooni is supposed to mean life phase or stage of life?

 

The missionaries trying to convince you that "jooni" means stage of life is as if you went to the electronics store to buy a television and the salesman tried to sell you binoculars because you can also see (vision) far (tele) with a binocular. It's just such a stretch.

[Guest DumbIdiotBanda]

When I was going through my atheist faze a few months ago, these missionaries such as Karaminder Singh really helped to bring me back into sikhi, but now realizing that their interpretation of Gurbani was just sugar coated atheism has got me questioning the reasons missionaries do this. Are they being paid off? Is there a bigger conspiracy behind this? Am I just listening to too many crazy people? I don’t know anymore. I really just want to move past all this and just dive headfirst back into sikhi. Don’t care if god really exists or not, sikhi is too beautiful to give up on. 

[scali]

Life is like a circle. Humans in that circle of awareness are more conscious than other life forms. If they choose they can accelerate their conscious meregence with GOD. Like a diamond in the earth core take bllions on years to form but in a factory you can create a cultured diamond in weeks. Naam Jaap can similarly create the condition of higher conscious awareness. There is only one thing in creation (GOD) in many forms looking back at itself by providing contrast to itself. Humans , Animals, Rocks all have same basic elemental compostion in various concentrations, but different levels of consciousess hence all is GOD- Sab Gobind hai Sab Gobind Hai.... The overly concern obsession with various joons become irrevelnt as one can choose to become a Ghost or an Animal. Ghost is a person after death refuses to go into the light due to its earthly attachments. Gods plan is to move you forward in awareness not go back as animal as it would be further back in awareness. There is no superior of inferior life forms just various levels of awareness.

 

[Guest DumbIdiotBanda]

I saw this post from DallySingh on this Charitar. The bit underlined and in italics was a bit interesting. 

 

ਚੌਪਈ ॥

Chaupaee

ਅਲਿਮਰਦਾ ਕੌ ਸੁਤ ਇਕ ਰਹੈ ॥

ਤਾਸ ਬੇਗ ਨਾਮਾ ਜਗ ਕਹੈ ॥

Alimardan (a king) had a son whom the world knew as Taas Beg.

ਬਚਾ ਜੌਹਰੀ ਕੋ ਤਿਨ ਹੇਰਿਯੋ ॥

ਮਹਾ ਰੁਦ੍ਰ ਰਿਪੁ ਤਾ ਕੌ ਘੇਰਿਯੋ ॥੧॥

He (Beg) came across the son of a jeweller and he was overpowered by the god of love.(1)

ਤਾ ਕੇ ਦ੍ਵਾਰੇ ਦੇਖਨ ਜਾਵੈ ॥

ਰੂਪ ਨਿਹਾਰਿ ਹ੍ਰਿਦੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਵੈ ॥

He would everyday go to his house and find solace by seeing him.

ਕੇਲ ਕਰੋ ਯਾ ਸੋ ਚਿਤ ਭਾਯੋ ॥

ਤੁਰਤੁ ਦੂਤ ਗ੍ਰਿਹ ਤਾਹਿ ਪਠਾਯੋ ॥੨॥

As he felt to make love with him to seek comfort, he immediately sent him his emissary.(2)

ਦੂਤ ਅਨੇਕ ਉਪਚਾਰ ਬਨਾਵੈ ॥

ਮੋਹਨ ਰਾਇ ਹਾਥ ਨਹਿ ਆਵੈ ॥

The emissary tried hard but Mohan Raae (the boy) would not consent.

ਤਿਹ ਤਾ ਸੋ ਇਹ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਉਚਾਰਿਯੋ ॥

ਤਾਸ ਬੇਗ ਤਾ ਸੌ ਖਿਝਿ ਮਾਰਿਯੋ ॥੩॥

When he conveyed the decision to him (Beg), he was perturbed and beat him up.(3)

ਚੋਟਨ ਲਗੇ ਦੂਤ ਰਿਸਿ ਭਰਿਯੋ ॥

ਮੂਰਖ ਜਾਨਿ ਜਤਨ ਤਿਹ ਕਰਿਯੋ ॥

The emissary became furious on receiving the retribution and,

ਮੋਹਨ ਆਜੁ ਕਹਿਯੋ ਮੈ ਐਹੋ ॥

considering him to be an idiotic, decided to do something.

ਤਾ ਕੌ ਤਾਸ ਬੇਗ ਤੂ ਪੈਹੋ ॥੪॥

He told Taas Beg, ‘Mohan has consented to come today.’(4)

ਯਹ ਸੁਨਿ ਬੈਨ ਫੂਲਿ ਜੜ ਗਯੋ ॥

ਸਾਚ ਬਾਤ ਚੀਨਤ ਚਿਤ ਭਯੋ ॥

Hearing this, his joy knew no bounds, as he took it to be true.

ਲੋਗ ਉਠਾਇ ਪਾਨ ਮਦ ਕਰਿਯੋ ॥

He sent away the people and started to drink wine.

ਮਾਨੁਖ ਹੁਤੋ ਜੋਨਿ ਪਸੁ ਪਰਿਯੋ ॥੫॥

Although human being, he had embraced the life of an animal.(5)

ਮੋ ਮਨ ਮੋਲ ਮੋਹਨਹਿ ਲਯੋ ॥

ਤਬ ਤੇ ਮੈ ਚੇਰੋ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਗਯੋ ॥

(He thought,) ‘My heart is already in the hands of Mohan and I have become his slave since (I saw him).

ਏਕ ਬਾਰ ਜੌ ਤਾਹਿ ਨਿਹਾਰੋ ॥

ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਧਨ ਤਾ ਪੈ ਸਭ ਵਾਰੋ ॥੬॥

‘Who-so-ever has a glimpse of him, sacrifices his own life over him.’(6)

ਬਿਨੁ ਸੁਧਿ ਭਏ ਦੂਤ ਤਿਹ ਚੀਨੋ ॥

ਅੰਡ ਫੋਰਿ ਆਸਨ ਪਰ ਦੀਨੋ ॥

When the emissary judged he was totally intoxicated with wine, he broke an egg and spread it on his bed.

ਭੂਖਨ ਬਸਤ੍ਰ ਪਾਗ ਤਿਹ ਹਰੀ ॥

ਮੂਰਖ ਕੌ ਸੁਧਿ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਪਰੀ ॥੭॥

He took away his ornaments, the clothes and the turban, and the fool remained unaware.(7)

ਮਦਰਾ ਕੀ ਅਤਿ ਭਈ ਖੁਮਾਰੀ ॥

ਪ੍ਰਾਤ ਲਗੇ ਜੜ ਬੁਧਿ ਨ ਸੰਭਾਰੀ ॥

The intoxication through wine was so intense that, till morning, he did not regain consciousness.

ਬੀਤੀ ਰੈਨਿ ਭਯੋ ਉਜਿਯਾਰੋ ॥

ਤਨ ਮਨ ਅਪਨੇ ਆਪ ਸੰਭਾਰੋ ॥੮॥

When the night had lapsed and the day broke, he managed to control his mind and body.(8)

ਹਾਥ ਜਾਇ ਆਸਨ ਪਰ ਪਰਿਯੋ ॥

ਚੌਕਿ ਬਚਨ ਤਬ ਮੂੜ ਉਚਰਿਯੋ ॥

When his hand fell over his bed, the <banned word filter activated> thought over,

ਨਿਕਟ ਆਪਨੋ ਦੂਤ ਬੁਲਾਯੋ ॥

ਤਿਨ ਕਹਿ ਭੇਦ ਸਕਲ ਸਮੁਝਾਯੋ ॥੯॥

And called over his emissary, who on query made him to understand thus,(9)

ਦੋਹਰਾ ॥

Dohira

ਮਤ ਭਏ ਤੁਮ ਮਦ ਭਏ ਸਕਿਯੋ ਕਛੂ ਨਹਿ ਪਾਇ ॥

‘You were totally under intoxication and would not remember.

ਐਸੇ ਕਰੈ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ ਵਹੁ ਸਕੈ ਮੂੜ ਨਹਿ ਪਾਇ ॥

Such Chritars could not be discerned by that idiotic and under the

ਮਮ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦ ਤੁਮਰੇ ਸਦਨ ਆਯੋ ਮੋਹਨ ਰਾਇ ॥੧੦॥

‘Mohan Raae, on my persuasion, had come to your house.(10)

ਚੌਪਈ ॥

Chaupaee

ਮੋਹਨ ਤੁਮ ਕੋ ਅਧਿਕ ਰਿਝਾਯੋ ॥

ਭਾਂਤਿ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਭਾਵ ਲਡਾਯੋ ॥

‘Mohan gave you pleasure by indulging in various gesticulations.

ਤਬ ਤੁਮ ਕਛੁ ਸੰਕਾ ਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੀ ॥

ਭੂਖਨ ਬਸਤ੍ਰ ਪਾਗ ਦੈ ਡਾਰੀ ॥੧੧॥

‘You were never in doubt and you gave him all your ornaments, the clothes and the turban.(11)

ਤਾ ਸੋ ਅਧਿਕ ਕੇਲ ਤੈ ਕੀਨੋ ॥

ਭਾਂਤਿ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਤਾ ਕੌ ਰਸ ਲੀਨੋ ॥

‘You made love with him lavishly,

ਬੀਤੀ ਰੈਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਾਤ ਜਬ ਭਯੋ ॥

ਤਬ ਤੁਮ ਤਾਹਿ ਬਿਦਾ ਕਰਿ ਦਯੋ ॥੧੨॥

and when the day broke you bade him good-bye.(12)

ਤਬ ਤੇ ਅਧਿਕ ਮਤ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਸੋਯੋ ॥

ਪਰੇ ਪਰੇ ਆਧੋ ਦਿਨ ਖੋਯੋ ॥

‘Since, then, you have been sleeping, nonchalantly, and half the day has gone by.

ਮਿਟਿ ਮਦ ਗਯੋ ਜਬੈ ਸੁਧ ਪਾਈ ॥

ਤਬ ਮੋ ਕੌ ਤੈ ਲਯੋ ਬੁਲਾਈ ॥੧੩॥

When the effect ofthe intoxication wore off, you called me over.’(13)

ਯਹ ਸੁਨਿ ਬਾਤ ਰੀਝਿ ਜੜ ਗਯੋ ॥

ਛੋਰਿ ਭੰਡਾਰ ਅਧਿਕ ਧਨੁ ਦਯੋ ॥

The imbecile was appeased on learning this and, from his treasure, gave him lot of riches.

ਭੇਦ ਅਭੇਦ ਕਛੁ ਨੈਕੁ ਨ ਚੀਨੋ ॥

ਲੂਟ੍ਯੋ ਹੁਤੋ ਲੂਟਿ ਧਨੁ ਲੀਨੋ ॥੧੪॥

He did not distinguish between the truth and deception and squandered his wealth.(14)

ਯਹ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ ਵਹ ਨਿਤਿ ਬਨਾਵੈ ॥

ਮਦਰੋ ਪ੍ਯਾਇ ਅਧਿਕ ਤਿਹ ਸ੍ਵਾਵੈ ॥

Now (the emissary) set off on this design everyday, and put Beg into sleep with excessive wine.

ਸੁਧਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਭਯੋ ਤਾਹਿ ਜਬ ਜਾਨੈ ॥

ਲੇਤ ਉਤਾਰਿ ਜੁ ਕਛੁ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨੈ ॥੧੫॥

When he would realize he was in deep slumber, he would do whatever he liked.(15)

ਦੋਹਰਾ ॥

Dohira

ਮਦਰੋ ਅਧਿਕ ਪਿਵਾਇ ਕੈ ਮੂੰਡ ਮੂੰਡ ਲੈ ਜਾਇ ॥੧੬॥

influence of wine got his head shaved off (lost all his wealth).(l6)(1)

ਇਤਿ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ ਪਖ੍ਯਾਨੇ ਪੁਰਖ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰੇ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੀ ਭੂਪ ਸੰਬਾਦੇ ਇਕ ਸੌ ਪਾਚ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ ਸਮਾਪਤਮ ਸਤੁ ਸੁਭਮ ਸਤੁ ॥੧੦੫॥੧੯੬੨॥ਅਫਜੂੰ॥

105th Parable of Auspicious Chritars Conversation of the Raja and the Minister, Completed With Benediction. (104)(1960)

 

Does that suggest the Joni could mean what Karminder Singh and his crew make it out to be is true? I know they are anti Dasam Granth, but I am not. Still believe in reincarnation though, no missionary has ever been shaheed. I think the Shaheeds of the panth know better than me?

[BhForce]

On 12/18/2022 at 8:59 PM, Guest DumbIdiotBanda said:

Is there a bigger conspiracy behind this?

Yes, there is. The "new missionaries" (the 18 year old kids who enroll in missionary schools) are not in on the conspiracy. They're just trying to learn to be a preacher so they can earn some money (and perhaps go abroad). Many or most of them are well-intentioned, but they are being taught "sugar-coated atheism" as you say.

The bigger conspiracy is the higher-ups. Some of them may be "in on it", others are just pure atheists who are playing a game to destroy Sikhism from within. Their institutions may be getting donations from anti-Sikh institutions because their interests align.

On 12/18/2022 at 8:59 PM, Guest DumbIdiotBanda said:

Don’t care if god really exists or not, sikhi is too beautiful to give up on. 

Good attitude. Even if God doesn't exist (he does), Gurmat is the highest path. Anything else just leads to despondency and depression about a universe that doesn't care about you.

[BhForce]

On 12/23/2022 at 5:45 PM, Guest DumbIdiotBanda said:

ਮਾਨੁਖ ਹੁਤੋ ਜੋਨਿ ਪਸੁ ਪਰਿਯੋ ॥੫॥

Although human being, he had embraced the life of an animal.(5)

An important thing to note regarding the Dasam Granth Sahib is that it does not lay out Bhagti principles in detail, but rather only mentions them.

The second thing to keep in mind is that there are verses in Gurbani that can fit both atheism/missionary thought and  reincarnation/traditional thought. But there are other verses that only fit into traditional thought.

So the verse above does fit into both. And that's fine.

The missionaries ignore (don't mention) the verses that don't fit their paradigm.

You, however, should read Gurbani yourself and see where they may be misleading you.

E.g.,

ਮਾਣਸ ਜਨਮੁ ਪੁੰਨਿ ਕਰਿ ਪਾਇਆ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਧ੍ਰਿਗੁ ਧ੍ਰਿਗੁ ਬਿਰਥਾ ਜਾਈ ॥
mānas janam punn kar pāiā bin nāvai dhrig dhrig birathā jāī .
Human birth is obtained through beneficent acts and accursed, accursed it is without the Name it and goes in vain. p493

It makes no sense to say that you gain this birth through punn (charitable acts) and then also say there is no reincarnation. The missionary interpretations are such a stretch.

 

[BhForce]

Here's another verse that doesn't fit with missionary thought:

ਸਭ ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਕਰਹੁ ਉਸਤਤਿ ਜਿਨਿ ਗਰੀਬ ਅਨਾਥ ਰਾਖਿ ਲੀਓਇ ॥

ਜੈਕਾਰੁ ਕੀਓ ਧਰਮੀਆ ਕਾ ਪਾਪੀ ਕਉ ਡੰਡੁ ਦੀਓਇ ॥੧੬॥

Ye all praise the Lord, who protects the poor and the weak.
He grants laurels to the virtuous and to the evil-doer He awards punishment. p89

 

Now ask yourself, are the poor being protected in this world? Are the sinners (classic examples like Hitler or Auranzeb) punished in this world? Not necessarily. Plenty of killers and tyrants got off scot free or at the most were killed. So just one death in return for hundreds or thousands of killings?

It seems clear that these verses only make sense if there is a next world in which justice is done, which the missionaries adamantly deny.

 

Secondly, Guru ji is asking us to praise Hari (God). If God doesn't exist, or "Hari" just means nature, then what's the point of praising nature? That's like praising a rock or a river.

None of this makes sense with missionary interpretation but it all makes sense in traditional interpretation.

[Premi5]

@BhForce

 

A broad  question

We all know that Reincarnation and Karma are complex and the results of current and past lives. 

It is said in Gurbani (I think) that those who think of their partners/women at death are born again as prostitutes; those who think of their house then become ghosts; those who think of money/greed become pigs. 

Can anyone give some other examples ? I remember there are some of men from Gurus' times who became an animal and later Sants have come into the world and taken those souls out of that Jooni

Are there other clear examples of how a specific action will lead to specific consequences?

Are those born deaf or blind so, because they caused others to be that way in previous lives ?