Sikhism Is The Only Religion....

[Singh132]

The Bhagats were all Sikhs of Guru Nanak and were following Gurmat. It is not true that they were Muslims or Hindus or anything else. They were in fact Sikhs of Guru Nanak. This is why the writings that were before they met Guru Nanak are not included in Guru Granth Sahib.

if i'm not mistaken Sheikh farid was before guru nanak.

collected from www.tapoban.org:

Baba Farid Jee whose bani is in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee is that of Farid Sani, and not the Baba Farid the Afghan who lived during the 12th century. Bhagat Farid Jee’s bani is the biggest proof of him being a contemporary of Guru Nanak Dev Jee. Even the present head of Baba Farid Jee’s spiritual order Prof. Khalil Nizami says the bani in Guru Granth Sahib Jee is that of Farid Sani. Bhai Vir Singh Jee, Prof. Teja Singh Jee, and Budh Singh all agree to this opinion that the Bani written in Guru Granth Sahib jee is that of Farid Sani the contemporary of Guru Nanak Dev Jee, and not Baba Farid the Afghan who lived during the 12th century.

The proof of Baba Farid Jee meeting Guru Nanak Dev Jee is his Bani. Fareed Jee writes:

JO GUR DASAY WAATH MUREEDA JOLEA|| (Asa sheikh farid 477)

KAR KIRPA PRAB SAADHSANG MELEE|| (Farid soohi 794)

Muslim sufis never use words such as Gur, Saadh or "Prabh". According to a book written by Prof. Khalil Nizami spiritual head of Baba Farid Jee’s spiritual order these words were written by Farid Sani because he was heavily influenced by Guru Nanak Dev jee, this is confirmed by the writer of "Swanay Farid".

Proof from Janamsakhis, then ponder on the following Janamsakhi which mentions Guru Jee meeting with Farid Jee:

SRI GURU BABA AUTHOU CHALIA|

RAAVI CHANOU DEKH KAR AUJARH PAI CHALIA|

PATTAN DESH AIE NIKALIA|

PATTAN TO KOS TIN AUJARH THI, AUTHAY AIE BAITHAA|

MARDANA NAAL AAHA, PATTAN DHA PIR SHEIKH FARID THA TISKAY TAKHT SHEIKH BRAM (IBRAHIM) THA| (Puraatan Janam Sakhi)

-Besides this Janamsakhi, another Janamsakhi by the name of “Meherban Vali Janamsakhi” tells of a story of when Baba Farid jee once went to collect wood and there he also ran into Guru Nanak Dev Jee reciting the following Gurbani Tukhs:

APAY PATTEE KALAM AAP, UPAR LEKH BHI THU||

EKO KAHIAE NANAKAA, DOOJA KAHAY KOO|| (Malar dhi vaar M: 1 -1291)

-Another Janamsakhi which is now safely at Guru Nanak Dev University taken from the UK also mentions a meeting between Guru Nanak Dev Jee and Baba Farid jee.

-Another Janamasakhi, Bhai Mani Singh Jee vali Janamsakhi mentions a meeting between Guru Nanak Dev Jee and Baba Farid Jee.

I have given names of four different Janamsakhis all mentioning Baba Farid jee meeting with Guru Nanak Dev Jee.

1) All Pakistani scholars agree that this Baba Farid jee did not write any baani at all. He was not a poet.

2) He was not a native of Punjab and as such could not have written such purely native countryside Punjabi. It is like asserting that Shakespeare was not English but a German writer. A non-English person could not have written what Shakespeare wrote. Same way, a non-Punjabi could not have written the kind of Punjabi that is in Gurbani under Baba Farid jee name.

3) The Punjabi used in Baba Farid jee’s baani in Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee is of the same time as Guru Nanak Sahib jee. All linguistics agree to this. If this baani had been written 300 years before Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee, it would have been drastically different. Just compare the Punjabi written today to Punjabi of Siri Guru Gobind Singh jee’s times.

4) Farid Shakarganj i.e. the Senior Farid, was a staunch Muslim who converted thousands of Hindus to Islam. He was very strict in Sharia and he would have never used non-Islamic words like “Saadh” in his baani.

Now the question arises that if the baani in Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee was not written by Baba Farid Shakarganj then who is the writer of this baani? The answer is very simple. As written in the Janamsaakhis, the writer of this baani was Farid Saani, who was sitting on the gaddi of the original Farid. His name was Sheikh Ibrahim but he was also known as Farid Saani and it was he who met Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaaj.

It is this Sheikh Ibrahim, whose spiritual thirst was quenched by Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee. He wrote the following shabad to Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee:

soohee lalith ||

baerraa ba(n)dhh n sakiou ba(n)dhhan kee vaelaa ||

.

bhar saravar jab ooshhalai thab tharan dhuhaelaa ||1||

hathh n laae kasu(n)bharrai jal jaasee dtolaa ||1|| rehaao ||

eik aapeenhai pathalee seh kaerae bolaa ||

dhudhhaa thhanee n aavee fir hoe n maelaa ||2||

kehai fareedh sehaeleeho sahu alaaeaesee ||

ha(n)s chalasee ddu(n)manaa ahi than dtaeree thheesee ||3||2||

This shabad of Baba Farid jee portrays the thirst of Baba jee very clearly. He is literally begging for spirituality. In response to this shabad, Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee wrote the following shabad:

soohee mehalaa 1 ||

jap thap kaa ba(n)dhh baerrulaa jith la(n)ghehi vehaelaa ||

naa saravar naa ooshhalai aisaa pa(n)thh suhaelaa ||1||

thaeraa eaeko naam ma(n)jeet(h)arraa rathaa maeraa cholaa sadh ra(n)g dtolaa ||1|| rehaao ||

saajan chalae piaariaa kio maelaa hoee ||

jae gun hovehi ga(n)t(h)arreeai maelaegaa soee ||2||

miliaa hoe n veeshhurrai jae miliaa hoee ||

aavaa goun nivaariaa hai saachaa soee ||3||

houmai maar nivaariaa seethaa hai cholaa ||

gur bachanee fal paaeiaa seh kae a(n)mrith bolaa ||4||

naanak kehai sehaeleeho sahu kharaa piaaraa ||

ham seh kaereeaa dhaaseeaa saachaa khasam hamaaraa ||5||2||4||

He cries that “bhar Sarvar jabb uchhalai, tabb taran dulela” but Guru Baba jee says “Na sarvar na uchhalai, aisa panth suhela”. He says that his spiritual path is very hard but Siri Guru jee says that the Gurmat path is very easy and full of bliss.

He says "BeRa bandh na sakhiyo" Siri Guru jee says, "Jap tap ka bandh beRla". He says that he has not been able to build his ship to swim across this ocean of world. Siri Guru jee says that if he has not build it yet, then he can now build the ship of Jap-Tap. What a great shabad Siri Guru jee's is! Just amazing. This shabad is most beautiful. I wish some gursikh sing this shabad and I may just listen to it till eternity.

Just compare the two shabads and no one can deny that one was written in response to the other one.

After hearing Siri Guru jee’s shabad, Farid Saani jee became disciple of Guru Nanak Paatshaah. There is no doubt about it. Sirii Guru jee and he met 3 times in total.

[N30S1NGH]

There is only ONE Satguru as Bani tells us and that is Guru Nanak. The other paths aren't condmened but they can't lead to Sach Khand. They will get what they are working for but the ultimate destination is through Gurmat alone. Only Gurmat Naam can lead us to God and that Gurmat Naam was revealed only by Guru Nanak.

The Bhagats were all Sikhs of Guru Nanak and were following Gurmat. It is not true that they were Muslims or Hindus or anything else. They were in fact Sikhs of Guru Nanak. This is why the writings that were before they met Guru Nanak are not included in Guru Granth Sahib.

Singh132,

your sachkhand comment was quite a bold one.. it's blasphemy

Are you telling us with anyone who was not sikh of satguru nanak cannot get to sachkhand or be liberated, they had to reborn as sikh inorder to get to sachkhand/liberated one with vahiguroo?

Another question,

In your view, what exactly is Gurmat Naam?

Are you talking about Vahiguroo Mantar being one and only one Gurmat Naam.???

What do you have to say about Raja Janak who existed long time before Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Bhai Gurdas ji describes him as:

source: source: http://www.searchgurbani.com/main.php?book...=10&pauri=5

Gurmukh (person who have their face towards Guru). Raja Janak's Guru was Asthavakat- 8 year old disable child who may be disabled in the eyes of chamars(people who judge others by skin, appearance) but his atma was merged with nirankar as one roop.

By saying Satguru nanak dev ji is only and only true Guru out of all the guru's we had in all the yugs, one still has dvaish(partiality) which restricts one's mindset to accept other bhagats, bhramgyani also had in the past merge with that higher reality and became also nirankari jot. Having that kind of mindset is against Gurmat Advait Sidhant, open doors to - Sharia/Katar Panthi/Fascist Sikhiiiiiiiiiiiii !

[Singh132]

Namastang,

your sachkhand comment was quite a bold one.. it's blasphemy

Blasphemy means I've gone against some fundamental principle of Sikhi. Please explain which that is. Please tell me who besides Guru Nanak has so much as even MENTIONED Sachkhand? If they found it, certainly they'd mention it somewhere? This realm is the exclusive revelation of Satguru Nanak. Please tell me how it's blasphemy with some references.

Are you telling us with anyone who was not sikh of satguru nanak cannot get to sachkhand or be liberated, they had to reborn as sikh inorder to get to sachkhand/liberated one with vahiguroo?

Without the kirpa of Satguru Nanak, NO ONE has reached SachKhand. Only by the kirpa of Guru Nanak is it possible..

In your view, what exactly is Gurmat Naam?

Gurmat naam is that naam revealed by Guru Nanak and is otherwise known as Shabad/naam/Gurmantar.

What do you have to say about Raja Janak who existed long time before Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

It seems you don't understand who and what Guru Nanak was. Do you think Guru Nanak came into existence in 1469? Guru Nanak has existence since Aad. He is Satguru through the 4 jugs. He came into human form to reveal naam openly in 1469. Bhattan De Svaiyay tell us, referring to Guru Nanak, "Too(n) satguru chahu(n) jugee aap aapay parmeshar". Throughout the jugs he has done kirpa on select bhagats like Dhru, Prehlaad, etc.

It seems to me that Guru Nanak used to do kirpa on select bhagats and bless them with Gurmat Naam. Svaiyay M: 5 kay tell us "Siri Guru Sahib Sabh Oopar. Karee Kirpa Satjug jin Dhroo par. Sree Prehlaad Bhagat Udhreeang. Haso kamal mathay par dhareeang." This means that Siri Guru Sahib (this clearly means Guru Nanak since it is the Bhattan Day Saviayay and they are talking about glory of Guru Nanak), does kirpa on everyone. In Satjug he blessed Dhroo. He saved Prehlaad. He put his lotus hands on their forehead (I always take this to mean gave them naam, just like naam is give the same way now).

In the same bandh it says "Gur parsaad prabh paieeai, gur bin mukat na hoi" meaning only by Guru's grace is Vahiguru found and without a Guru no one is mukat." The very next line says "Guru Nanak Nikat basai banvaree" and goes on to talk about Guru Angad, Guru Amardas and Guru Ram Das. This is all the same bandh, not a new one.

It is clear that the Guru is only Guru Nanak. It is clear that without Guru Nanak no one can be saved. And it is clear that Guru Nanak himself did kirpa and gave naam to Dhroo and Prehlaad.

By saying Satguru nanak dev ji is only and only true Guru out of all the guru's we had in all the yugs, one still has dvaish(partiality) which restricts one's mindset to accept other bhagats, bhramgyani also had in the past merge with that higher reality and became also nirankari jot. Having that kind of mindset is against Gurmat Advait Sidhant, open doors to - Sharia/Katar Panthi/Fascist Sikhiiiiiiiiiiiii !

How man Satgurus are there? There is only ONE. Sat is one. Satguru is one. ਇਕਾ ਬਾਣੀ ਇਕੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਇਕੋ ਸਬਦੁ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥. Guru Nanak is the poora Satguru and he acted in the 4 ages through various agents or by doing special kirpa on certain bhagats but only in Kaljug has Guru Nanak openly revealed naam. That's why Guru Sahib says: ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗਾ ਕਾ ਹੁਣਿ ਨਿਬੇੜਾ ਨਰ ਮਨੁਖਾ ਨੋ ਏਕੁ ਨਿਧਾਨਾ ॥ Salvation is NOW available openly. Also: ਸਤਜੁਗੁ ਤ੍ਰੇਤਾ ਦੁਆਪਰੁ ਭਣੀਐ ਕਲਿਜੁਗੁ ਊਤਮੋ ਜੁਗਾ ਮਾਹਿ ॥

I don't know much about Advait Sidhant and if these truths make me a Facist, so be it. But this is the Greatness of Satguru Nanak that ONLY he is the Satguru. No one has realised SachKhand (merged with Vahiguru) without Guru Nanak's blessings and Gurmat Naam.

[Surajsingh]

Baba Farid Ji:

http://www.sikhnet.com/Sikhnet/discussion....33;OpenDocument

[N30S1NGH]

Is that so? Please tell me who besides Guru Nanak has so much as even MENTIONED Sachkhand? If they found it, certainly they'd mention it somewhere? This realm is the exclusive revelation of Satguru Nanak. Please tell me how it's blasphemy with some references.

Singh 132,

You are right -Sachkhand was never mentioned in earlier text, guru ji gave a name to this higher reality but that does not mean this higher reality didn't exist and no one acheived it, other religious tradition have same higher reality but different label. Just like how vahiguroo have soo many names (Ram, Allah, Ikongkar etc) just like there is no difference between turiya avastha and sachkhand. It's a same thing but different label, only people with extreme dubta in them will differentiate or have dvaish.

EG-

Here is the glimpse in Islam level of spirituality..Muslim holy saints divide the whole ascent into seven valleys-

1. Valley of Search(Wadde-a-Tallash)

2. Valley of Love (Wadee-a-Ishaq)

3. Valley of Knowledge (Wadeea-Marfat)

4. Valley of meditation or Ibadat (Wadee-a-Mehveat)

5. Valley of Unity (Wadee-Wehdeeat)

6. Valley of Bliss (Wadee-a-Noor or Wadee-a-Hairam)

7. Valley of merger in God or Allah (Wadee-A-Finah-Fillah)

In Japuji Sahib five khands (Realms) have been described also on this subject. Those are 1. Dharam Khand (Realm of Righteousness) 2. Gian Khand (Realm Of Knowledge) 3. Saram Khand (Realm of Spiritual effort). 4. Karam Khand (Realm of Grace) 5. Sachkhand (realm of truth). Those valley or realms means samething its just they are name differently just like one god known as vahiguroo, allah, ishvar, ram and many countless names...!

Without the kirpa of Satguru Nanak, NO ONE has reached SachKhand. Only by the kirpa of Guru Nanak is it possible..

Wrong, satguru nanak dev ji is nirankari jot, that nirankari jot is infinite, guru patshah himself being nirankari jot utter Mool Mantar to describe Nirgun Paratma when he was sent by nirgun paratama in sargun saroop of vahiguroo.

Ikongkar Satnam Kartapurkh Nirbhau Nirvair Akaal Moorat Ajoni Saihbhang Guruparsad ||

Now if Sri Guru Nanak dev ji being fully merged with nirankar saying mool mantra, how could you limit Vahiguroo Nirgun Paratama to only Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji and make sikhi monoply over Nirgun Paratama? Nirgun form of Vahiguroo- "ik" "kar" , Akaal Moorat, Ajooni(this term is not limited or bound to only physcial birth) and gurbani talks about terms like agam, agochar.

Ek hai pher bhi anek hai, anek hai pher bhi ek hai. Jaap Sahib talks about it clearly. There is no difference between anek(sarugn) and ek(nirgun) they are connected with each other. However. You cannot deny when sargun form of God came from Nirgun *NOT* other way around, there was no change(upadhi) in Nirgun when sargun was present but there was a change when sargun came into existence change which lead this whole creation.

Gurmat naam is that naam revealed by Guru Nanak and is otherwise known as Shabad/naam/Gurmantar.

Ok so in your opnion if vahiguroo is only gurmat naam? then what are?

Ikongkar, Satnaam = Anti Gurmat Naam??? or less gurmat naam???

They are name as well here are some quotes to ponder upon:

Pirthame On(g)kar So Dhun Poran Jagat Mae Raha ||

Fist ongkar was recited and that resosance created world and give nourishment to this world. (Siri Guru Gobind Singh Ji, Dasam Granth Sahib)

Ongkar aad kathni anad, Khal Khand Khyal Gurbar Akaal ||

Ongkar Bhrama Utpat ||

bhrama(creator) came from ongkar resosance.

Ongkar Kiya Jin Chit ||

then bhrama did tapasya of that ongkar

Ongkar Saiyel Jug Paie ||

Ongkar Vaid Nirvaie ||

Guru Nanak Dev Ji said, with ongkar - Nirgun transcedents it's attributes into sargun.

siq nwmu pRB kw suKdweI ]

sath naam prabh kaa sukhadhaaee ||

The True Name of God is the Giver of peace.

ibsÍwsu siq nwnk gur qy pweI ]6]

bisvaas sath naanak gur thae paaee ||6||

Nanak has obtained true faith from the Guru. ||6||

ikrqm nwm kQy qyry ijhbw ]

kiratham naam kathhae thaerae jihabaa ||

With my tongue I chant the Names given to You.

siq nwmu qyrw prw pUrblw ]

sath naam thaeraa paraa poorabalaa ||

'Sat Naam' is Your perfect, primal Name.

It seems you don't understand who and what Guru Nanak was. Do you think Guru Nanak came into existence in 1469? Guru Nanak has existence since Aad. He is Satguru through the 4 jugs. He came into human form to reveal naam openly in 1469. Bhattan De Svaiyay tell us, referring to Guru Nanak, "Too(n) satguru chahu(n) jugee aap aapay parmeshar". Throughout the jugs he has done kirpa on select bhagats like Dhru, Prehlaad, etc.

You are right but let me rephrase.

Nirankari jot existed all through four yugs before even yugs- aadtu, however nirankar decided to transcedent most of his quality into sargun form of Vahiguroo- as Sri Guru nanak dev ji in kalyug to benefit the world.

All his resosance /his attributes was there always been from aad, Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji as bhai gurdas ji says - introduced Vahiguroo mantar to make it easier for people because vahiguroo mantar consist of mantars of all yugs but guru sahiban nor bhai gurdas ji never ever negates other mantar's or discarded them in pathway to merge with akaal purkh. Come on singh think about it, why would guru ji discard mantra such us ram or hari especially if they are attached with akaal purkh's attributes.

Many of bhagat recited on different mantara's and had murshid/guru after their seva and naam simran on mantar their murshid they gave, they were merged with the same akaal purkh that sri guru nanak dev ji are merged.. no difference. !

It seems to me that Guru Nanak used to do kirpa on select bhagats and bless them with Gurmat Naam. Svaiyay M: 5 kay tell us "Siri Guru Sahib Sabh Oopar. Karee Kirpa Satjug jin Dhroo par. Sree Prehlaad Bhagat Udhreeang. Haso kamal mathay par dhareeang." This means that Siri Guru Sahib (this clearly means Guru Nanak since it is the Bhattan Day Saviayay and they are talking about glory of Guru Nanak), does kirpa on everyone. In Satjug he blessed Dhroo. He saved Prehlaad. He put his lotus hands on their forehead (I always take this to mean gave them naam, just like naam is give the same way now).

In the same bandh it says "Gur parsaad prabh paieeai, gur bin mukat na hoi" meaning only by Guru's grace is Vahiguru found and without a Guru no one is mukat." The very next line says "Guru Nanak Nikat basai banvaree" and goes on to talk about Guru Angad, Guru Amardas and Guru Ram Das. This is all the same bandh, not a new one.

It is clear that the Guru is only Guru Nanak. It is clear that without Guru Nanak no one can be saved. And it is clear that Guru Nanak himself did kirpa and gave naam to Dhroo and Prehlaad.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji is referred to as in a lineage of avatars in Gurbani, Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale accords to Guruji the status of avatar of Waheguru, possessing the recorded qualities of past avatars (very systematically).

Now you will label me as rss by aligning me that i m saying- Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji was Avatar of Vishnu??? like you did in the past,

not reallyy since Ram and Krishna are manifestations of Hari or Parbrahm (Bhagvad Gita and Adhyatam Ramayan). Each bring the appropriate 'yug dharma' or spiritual teachings of that age. Guru ji is thus the same in that he is a manifestation of God who has brought the teachings for kalyug. God is the same in all yugs. There are many gurbani quotations supporting this point. It is the position of samprdas, Sants, Taksal, etc.

What perhaps is more 'dangerous' is to view Sri Guru Nanak dev ji as independent of God, and more like a prophet bringing the 'truth' that never before existed. This contradicts those quotations given before from previous yugs, it contradicts so much of Gurmat and is clearly an attempt to turn Sikhi into a more semitic tradition with 'revelation' 'prophethood' and a historically specific 'truth'.

Likewise you would expect to find such narrations in janamsakhi literature or any of the historical narratives of the Panth. One light many forms. One truth, many forms depending on the needs of the contexts.

Your interpertations of guru in those shabad are very limited, i interperet guru as -Vahiguroo Nirgun Paratama because in sikh is first only upasakh of nirgun paratma then guru maharaj then teacher -read my signature.

How man Gurus are there? There is only ONE. Sat is one. Satguru is one. ਇਕਾ ਬਾਣੀ ਇਕੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਇਕੋ ਸਬਦੁ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥. Guru Nanak is the poora Satguru and he acted in the 4 ages through various agents but only in Kaljug has Guru Nanak openly revealed naam. That's why Guru Sahib says: ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗਾ ਕਾ ਹੁਣਿ ਨਿਬੇੜਾ ਨਰ ਮਨੁਖਾ ਨੋ ਏਕੁ ਨਿਧਾਨਾ ॥

Salvation is NOW available openly. Also: ਸਤਜੁਗੁ ਤ੍ਰੇਤਾ ਦੁਆਪਰੁ ਭਣੀਐ ਕਲਿਜੁਗੁ ਊਤਮੋ ਜੁਗਾ ਮਾਹਿ ॥

There is only ik ongkar(one) God/Guru in Nirgun paratma, but many different forms. You should really look into concept of nirgun vahiguroo paratama and sargun paratama. As coin have both sides, so does god, there is only one but different flower just like there is seed(bij) but out of that seed many flowers.

[N30S1NGH]

I wish to create another post to post difference of opnions between samparda (old school traditions ) vs modern day interperations which i fully beleive open doors to fascisim.

I myself just like singh132 fully beleive in satguru nanak dev ji being greatest guru of all. However here is main difference of opnions between samparda vs modern day interperations.

This is what i have learnt from traditional samparda beleif:

Basic spiritual beleive in Sikh Dharam

Sikhi beleives in God does not incaranate fully but God transcedents his attributes in his creation. For eg- Guru's had most not all attributes of Nirgun Paratama(God which we cannot see).

- Sikhi beleive in advait worship - worship only one creator, seeing that one creator in his creation (Parbhram Upasana).

- Sikhi beleive God has two forms- one form which does not change (Nirguna-orginal form) ie- God- indescrible, unreachable, limitless ,timeless etc, and second form is sarguna (the one which we can see), God transform it's attributes in sargun form. Sargun form can be considers as Guru Avtar, Nit Avtar (Sants/Saints) etc.

- Sikhi beleive only way to get to God, is via Grace of Guru from social religious perspective- grace of Satguru Nanak in Sikh Dharma, from spiritual aspect meaning of Guru can be broaden to any person who brings one from darkness into light. But that does not mean, one should not make a effort by thinking - i m going to get grace one day regardless without making any effort , that means one should defaniately make a effort to acquire grace of Guru by listening and following discourses of Guru.

Statement of Guru being God can be both true and false. Depending on the context of the statement I ll explain my reasonings.

This statement is true from a context that Guru indeed has maximum attributes of God and sargun face of God ..sargun and nirgun cannot be separated, they are part of each other..but it's false at the same time because even though Guru does have maximum attributes of God, no avtar can have exactly full attributes of God. Remember God does not incarnate itself fully into human form but transcedents his attributes into avtars where as Guru Avtar is consider highest of high and nit avtars are consider as saints. There is fine line difference. That difference is not there to prove that one should not take guidance from guru regarding mukhti but to know divine law that God has two forms, one form does not have any upadi(change) which is nirgun but sargun form of God have change, is because of change, sargun form comes in this world to benefit human kind to join broken souls with Akaal Purkh(God). Before this creation, only thing ever there was Nirgun God, but when Nirgun form decided to have a thought, that thought itself is a change in its non-transcedental state, that thought itself created the creation into many forms, created amount of attributes which were given to his own roop-sargun form of God in form of avtars to help his creation ,to give energy etc.

Ram and Krishna are manifestations of Hari or Parbrahm (Bhagvad Gita and Adhyatam Ramayan). Each bring the appropriate 'yug dharma' or spiritual teachings of that age. Guru ji is thus the same in that he is a manifestation of God who has brought the teachings for kalyug. God is the same in all yugs. There are many gurbani quotations supporting this point. It is the position of samprdas, Sants, Taksal, etc.

Modern day beleif (thought vibes from singh132 post)

- Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji opened up higher realm called sachkhand before sri guru nanak dev ji that realm existed but no one reached there because they were not complete.

- Misinterperations of guru/satguru shabad by ignoring adyatamic interperation instead focuing more into socio-religious interperations. Adhyatamic meaning of SatGuru/Guru shared by old school samparda including taksal- Guru/Satguru means god in nirgun chaitan paratama and guru also means avtar in sargun form ie- Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji..

What perhaps is more 'dangerous' is to view Sri Guru Nanak dev ji as independent of God, and more like a prophet bringing the 'truth' that never before existed. This contradicts those quotations given before from previous yugs, it contradicts so much of Gurmat and is clearly an attempt to turn Sikhi into a more semitic tradition with 'revelation' 'prophethood' and a historically specific 'truth'.

Likewise you would expect to find such narrations in janamsakhi literature or any of the historical narratives of the Panth. One light many forms. One truth, many forms depending on the needs of the contexts.

- There is only one Gurmat Naam which is Vahiguroo rest of bhagats were blessed by sri guru nanak dev ji and they were given gurmat naam- Vahiguroo. Again other naam - Ikongkar, Ram, Allah, Satnaam mentioned in sri guru granth sahib fully ignored along with stories of many bhagats in gurbani gettng grace of Vahiguroo via naam mantar given by their gurudev fully ignored.

Disagreement between me and singh132 is not just mere argument for just sake of arguing. These are vary disagreements of old samparda mindset with new hocus pocus modern day home cooked gurmat which is being fed to young generations sikhs by jatha's.

[Singh132]

Namastang,

You haven't answered my very fundamental question: who is a Satguru besides Satguru Nanak. Guru Nanak is the eternal Satguru according to bani. Bani also tells us that "bin satgur kinai na paiyo bin satgur kinai na paaiya". No one has found Vahiguru without the Satguru. So how has anyone found Vahiguru without Guru Nanak?

I find it to be real blasphemy when you equate Sach Khand with the 7 heavens of Islam. Islam, the religion of Muhammed who consummated marriages with 9 year olds and said it's fine to rape the wives of captives in front of them, has the capability of revealing Sach Khand? Give me a break. Sach Khand is much above heaven and real blasphemy is committed when you try and call those lowly heavens as Sach Khand.

Then you've gone into some philosophies of nirgun and sargun which I won’t even bother addressing because I didn't find even ONE quote from Gurbani. I don't want to debate advait mat or Vedant. If you have an argument on why or how Vahiguru can be found without Satguru, and why/how Satuguru Nanak is not the ONLY Satguru, please feel free to present with reference to bani.

All naam besides "Satnaam" or "Gurmat Naam" are kirtam naam. As you quoted, "kirtam naam kathay tayray jehba. Satnaam tera para poorbla." This tuk tells us clearly that there is a difference between these two naams and only Satnaam/Gurmantar is perfect and with full capacity. That's why Guru Sahib has mentioned "Satnaam" over and over. Gurmantar is not just one naam amongst many, it is the highest mantar. The other naams are not bad. They will definitely have an effect but Gurmat naam is the one that has the highest vibration and takes the soul to Sackhand. Bhai Gurdas has said all previous mantars are merged into this one and NOW by grace of this mantar, "jehaan thae oupajiaa fir thehaan samaavai".

Guru Nanak, according to Bhattan Kay Savaiyay was the power acting through Krishna when he defeated Kans. He was the power that acted through Ram when he did his good deeds. But that was not Guru Nanak. Are you suggesting it was Guru Nanak who cried when his wife was kidnapped? It was Guru Nanak stealing the clothes of the Gopis? That once again is blasphemy. Guru Nanak was not these people. In fact, what is point of revealing any new Gurmantar or any new Rehit if the old systems were created by him? Why didn't he just reform Vaisno dharam? Why did he reveal all these new things if the old systems were his as well? Further if you say that Guru Nanak is only for Kaljug, are you suggesting that if this jug ends, Gurmat will no longer be relevant? Why has Guru Sahib said THIS is the time for Salvation and Kaljug is greatest? If Gurmat revealed by Guru Nanak is just another dharam and he has done this before, why is this the best time? It just doesn't make any sense. Gurbani is clear on the issue: "eko dharam driray sach koi. Gurmat poora jug jug soi". Only ONE dharam teaches Sach. That is Guru Nanak's Gurmat, which is PERFECT in EVERY jug. What you are preaching is blasphemous to Gurmat.

At any rate, if you want to debate, I won't debate philosophies. I will debate on Gurbani. Please show me through Gurbani that there is more than one Satguru or that someone has found Vahiguru without Satguru Nanak. Whatever points you have, please support with direct quotations.

You said that I'm ignoring stories of Bhagats getting naam from their Gurus and finding Vahiguru. I can prove to you that all the Bhagats were in fact Sikhs of Guru Nanak. Can you prove otherwise?

These are vary disagreements of old samparda mindset with new hocus pocus modern day home cooked gurmat which is being fed to young generations sikhs by jatha's

I think the readers can judge who talks hocus pokus and who is basing arguments on Gurbani.

[Singh With Dunalli]

SIKHISM IS THE ONLY RELIGION THAT HELPS YOU MEET AKAL PURAKH, NO OTHER RELIGION DOES THAT, THEY TELL YOU TO DO THIS AND THAT, BUT NOT HOW TO CONNECT ONE WITH AKAL PURAKH.. :e:

SO IN OTHER WORDS...

SINGH IS KING, AND BE THE BEST A KAUR PRINCESS. :D

[N30S1NGH]

Namastang,

You haven't answered my very fundamental question: who is a Satguru besides Satguru Nanak. Guru Nanak is the eternal Satguru according to bani. Bani also tells us that "bin satgur kinai na paiyo bin satgur kinai na paaiya". No one has found Vahiguru without the Satguru. So how has anyone found Vahiguru without Guru Nanak?

As i already said, i ll repeat myself, there are two context of satguru which doesnt exist in black and white sikhi but they need to be understood when interperting gurbani because gurbani uses these both context,, you see gurbani is more than just your usual one line interpertations of modern day scholar- prof sahib singh who is very famous within modern day jatha's

Satguru from adyatamic aspect(spiritual) refers to aad sach jugud sach hai bhi sach nanak sahib says - he will ever truth(nanak hosi bhi sach).

Sri Guru Gobind Singh says: Aad Ant Eke Avtara So Guru Samjheo Hamara ||

Satguru from socio-religious aspect depending on different dharam, its anyone who is merged with Vahiguroo by rising above from all vices, gyan indraie, five koshas and already enlightened and has ablity to enlighten others(bring others from darkness to light).

Satguru from socio religious aspect in Sikhi is defaniately without any question- Satguru Nanak Dev Nirankar.

I find it to be real blasphemy when you equate Sach Khand with the 7 heavens of Islam. Islam, the religion of Muhammed who consummated marriages with 9 year olds and said it's fine to rape the wives of captives in front of them, has the capability of revealing Sach Khand? Give me a break. Sach Khand is much above heaven and real blasphemy is committed when you try and call those lowly heavens as Sach Khand.

lol... yaar, this is sufism not sharia islam don't worry. And these are not your heavenly pleasure realms just look at them again. I fail to see any heavenly pleasure realm in any of these states, its quite opposite actually, it's state of one avastha towards Allah

1. Valley of Search(Wadde-a-Tallash)

2. Valley of Love (Wadee-a-Ishaq)

3. Valley of Knowledge (Wadeea-Marfat)

4. Valley of meditation or Ibadat (Wadee-a-Mehveat)

5. Valley of Unity (Wadee-Wehdeeat)

6. Valley of Bliss (Wadee-a-Noor or Wadee-a-Hairam)

7. Valley of merger in God or Allah (Wadee-A-Finah-Fillah)

Do this, think yourself for once as atma(jot) saroop, don't think of yourself promoter of a dharam in which you must show sikhi is the way other ways are wrong, rise above from these petty games, i m sure your teachers or preddecessors were much above these petty games of proving supermacy over Vahiguroo.Think about these states, i challenge you these states are more less same as all the khands mentions in japji sahib and turiya avasta you just have to come outta box see the vahiguroo's creation and appreciate the diversity. i m sure your concept of sachkhand probably includes sarbloh bibek paredar at the front gate of sachkhand, another perehadar to examine if people are wearing all 5 kakars, keski included..this concept of sachkhand has much more to offer not just to bibeki singhs but whole human race !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Therefore diversity within unity.

Then you've gone into some philosophies of nirgun and sargun which I won’t even bother addressing because I didn't find even ONE quote from Gurbani. I don't want to debate advait mat or Vedant. If you have an argument on why or how Vahiguru can be found without Satguru, and why/how Satuguru Nanak is not the ONLY Satguru, please feel free to present with reference to bani.

That's all I have to say to show you that nirgun and sargun concept is not just same hindu mat but Gurmat Advait Mat:

Sargun Nirgun Nirankaar Sun Smadhi Aap, Apan Kia Nanka Apan Hi Fir Jaap ||

All naam besides "Satnaam" or "Gurmat Naam" are kirtam naam. As you quoted, "kirtam naam kathay tayray jehba. Satnaam tera para poorbla." This tuk tells us clearly that there is a difference between these two naams and only Satnaam/Gurmantar is perfect and with full capacity. That's why Guru Sahib has mentioned "Satnaam" over and over. Gurmantar is not just one naam amongst many, it is the highest mantar. The other naams are not bad. They will definitely have an effect but Gurmat naam is the one that has the highest vibration and takes the soul to Sackhand. Bhai Gurdas has said all previous mantars are merged into this one and NOW by grace of this mantar, "jehaan thae oupajiaa fir thehaan samaavai".

Here are correct translations with some history of what exactly is kirtam naam?

Kirtam naam is insignifact have nothing to do with Vahiguroo attributes and do more to do with janam naam, jatti naam etc.. those are for four types you can read the transslation in hindi.

No where in that shabad guru maharaj ji has compared other naam of vahiguroo with satnam but he has compared socio religious names link with this jiv with satnaam (god's name) and gave discourse- Satnaam is primal name out of all because this name also exist in para bani(higher state) along with other resosance of vahiguroo ie- ongggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg or oammmmmmmmmmmmmmm(nasal difference) sounds the same in resonance.

Ikongkar, Satnam, Vahiguroo along with Raam, Allah, or any name that links with attributes of God can take this jiv to sachkhand-

I am sure you heard of women name gangka papan, she was prostitue by proffestion after meeting with mahapursh, he gave her parrot and told her when parrot recites ram ram you should recite after the parrot, she keep doing this for couple of months until your man becomes fully shud then at night, snake ate the parrot, and when she got up in amritvela to do her patt , she try to awake the parrot but it was snake , instantly bite her and she said ram ram while she died. She was then taken to sachkhand. Her name is mentioned in the gurbani which we matha taik everyday.

So as bhagat kabir sakhi when bhagat kabir met his gurdev- ramanad night time upon his gurdev ishnan time, kabir ji lying on the stairs when his gurdev accidently hit him and said mantar, he recited upon that mantar for long time and got gyan turiya avastha.

So you will find soo many bhagats which are included in sri guru granth sahib and have given different naam mantar, destination was same.

Guru Nanak, according to Bhattan Kay Savaiyay was the power acting through Krishna when he defeated Kans. He was the power that acted through Ram when he did his good deeds. But that was not Guru Nanak.

Off course, that wasnt guru nanak dev in sargun form but daiv shakti of Vahiguroo Paratma. Again i must remind you Vahiguroo paratma is not limited to sri guru nanak dev ji even sri guru nanak dev in japji sahib mentions his outreach byant byant,, cant reached it so as sri guru gobind singh ji mentioned that in sri akaal ustat. you should read akaal ustat, i love guru maharaj ji poetic beauty, he breaks soo called socio religious shackles of dharam fully. It may challenges your mindset though.

In fact, what is point of revealing any new Gurmantar or any new Rehit if the old systems were created by him? Why didn't he just reform Vaisno dharam? Why did he reveal all these new things if the old systems were his as well?

You wanna question him, keep questioning and keep judging him by your own standards but i stand by what we are told- Hakum Hakum Hakum Hakum. It was hakum of Akaal Purkh he created sikhi, he came in this world to spread peace by his fragnance. Read Ugardanti , it cleary talks about tisra panth, It was hakum under the akaal purkh.

Further if you say that Guru Nanak is only for Kaljug, are you suggesting that if this jug ends, Gurmat will no longer be relevant? Why has Guru Sahib said THIS is the time for Salvation and Kaljug is greatest? If Gurmat revealed by Guru Nanak is just another dharam and he has done this before, why is this the best time? It just doesn't make any sense. Gurbani is clear on the issue: "eko dharam driray sach koi. Gurmat poora jug jug soi". Only ONE dharam teaches Sach. That is Guru Nanak's Gurmat, which is PERFECT in EVERY jug. What you are preaching is blasphemous to Gurmat.

Read bhai gurdas ji varan about arrival of sri guru nanak dev ji, sri guru nanak dev nirankar came in kalyug, he is guru avtar in kalyug. All the avtar had to go they did, when yug ended , other yug came and its avtar in that yug came but in kalyug- sri guru nanak dev ji may have left his body but his jot in shabad guru, it will be always there because shabad guru is not your socio religious dharam or panth, shabad guru which contains countless attributes of akaal purkh not just vahiguroo or satnaam..shabad guru is primal force(gupti dhur ki bani) meant for everyone. No one can claim manoply over shabad guru sri guru granth sahib ji. It's for whole human kind. No Heirachy, Khalsa associated with socio religious structure can claim their supermacy.

I ll end this post with little audio clip of my teacher - sant jagjit singh ji harkhowale regarding Gurmat being anadi.

Sikhi is anadi, socio religious boundaries does not bound to sikhi.

audio clip: http://www.gurmarag.net/SikhAwareness/Audi...0is%20anadi.mp3 (Right click and save target as)

[Bijla Singh]

Namstang, you mentioned Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji. If you really agree with him then you should study his jeevani. Sant Kartar Singh Ji mentioned that Sant Gurbachan Singh and Sant Sundar Singh Ji used to be Sadhus in their previous births and did lot of bhagtee but to attain Mukhtee they had to take one more birth in Sikhi and only after taking Amrit (Gurmat Naam from Satguru) they could get to where they wanted. It is very simple logic: If ways to merge with Waheguru had already existed then why did Guru Sahib start Sikhi? Why did he even come and stayed in physical form for 240 years? Equating Sikhi to other religions such as Islam and Hinduism is an insult to Sikhi. While these two religions and their scriptures are rejected in Gurbani you are claiming them to be equal to Sikhi. Your reasoning shouldn't be based on old sampardas but on Gurbani. Debate on "Avtars" has already taken place. Hukam of Akal Purakh must have a reasoning. He doesn't just wake up and decide to do something without any reason. Think about why Sikhi or the third Panth was started. Simply because other religions had failed and fog of ignorance was only eliminated when Sikhi appeared. Show reference from Gurbani that one can get muktee without Satguru and obtaining Naam. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh