Sarai Simran Karo Jee

[N30S1NGH]

Sat Sri Akal:

" I already got blessed with naam jugti from mahapursh- baba jagjit singh ji harkhowaley in form of panj pyares."

Uh...do not make that statement.  No "Baba" is ever in the form of the Panj Pyare.  The Guru is in the form of the Panj Pyare.  No Sikh can be equivalent to the Guru.  You may ask Baba Jagjit Singh himself of that.  His participation in an Amrit Sanchar makes him one of the 5 Sikhs, who are equal in status.

Naam Simran and Naam - people seem to think it is all in the technique.  If this is true, what is the need of Amrit?  Shall I not simply take the technique from some person who cannot keep their mouth shut and start to practice without Rehat?  Or perhaps Guru Sahib bestows more than mere motions and techniques at the Amrit Sanchar?

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First naam is given by only panj pyares. Naam simran jugti can be given by one of pyares who is consider jathedar muki within panj pyares. Traditionally Bhai Dya Singh Ji is known as mukhi of panj pyares, rest of the pyares made him jathedar out of respect, most of decisions were made by him after consulting with his fellow beloved. He actually took part in amrit sanchars giving naam jugti(discourses) while.. Read a whole chapter of bhagti atamik updesh to sikhs by bhai dya singh ji in Gurpartap Soraj parkash granth I beilve (if i m not mistaken).

Also naam amrit is inside us, and it's in whole creation. It's shabad in form of naam given to us by panj pyares to awaken that naam amrit.

Nau Nidh Amrit Prabh Ka Naam, Dehi Mein Eska Bishraam |

[ms514]

Sat Sri Akal:

The concentration and presence of all Panj Pyare are required. Just because one of the Panj Pyare (Jathedar) is imparting the knowledge does not mean the others are irrelevant (as your initial sentence states). What you are hinting at is that Baba Jagjit Singh was the Jathedar and he imparted you Naam (first post). In the Panj, Baba Jagjit Singh does not exist...he is one of the Panj Pyare, who are the One Guru.

[N30S1NGH]

Sat Sri Akal:

The concentration and presence of all Panj Pyare are required.  Just because one of the Panj Pyare (Jathedar) is imparting the knowledge does not mean the others are irrelevant (as your initial sentence states).  What you are hinting at is that Baba Jagjit Singh was the Jathedar and he imparted you Naam (first post).  In the Panj, Baba Jagjit Singh does not exist...he is one of the Panj Pyare, who are the One Guru.

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Yes that's what i m hinting, . Baba Jagjit Singh Ji harkhowaley is already consider as jathedar by his fellow pyares in his amrit sanchar seva or other seva's, jathedar mukhi in the panj pyares di seva has full right to give "jugti" to jagiaso or give further divine discourses regardless of other pyares present or not since he is already given authority from his fellow pyares by blessing of Guru.

Naam gurmantar/mool mantar is given by all pyares present to jagiaso. Fully agree with that. But other pyares does not need to be present when jagiaso is receiving jugti how to jaap naam.

This is beleived by puratan samparda's. They don't need new tat-gurmat khalsa sikhs tell them what is gurmat and what is not !

[ms514]

Sat Sri Akal:

As per what you are saying, once the Panj Pyare have selected a Jathedar, that Jathedar can feel free to impart Naam technique without the presence of the other Panj Pyare, as their acknowledgement of the Jathedar means their spirit combined is present in the one individual and that individual therefore encompasses the One Guru, at least in the administration of technique.

Regardless of whatever the Puratan Maryadas and whatever say, this would not be correct, as THE most elder Puratan Maryada is that of Guru Sahib. Guru Sahib himself is the example, as he was the first to take Amrit from the Panj Pyare. Whatever was done was done with the presence of the Panj Pyare at all times. Bhai Daya Singh is not noted anywhere to have imparted any Gurmat knowledge to Guru Gobind Singh Ji apart from the other Pyare. Thus, the ENTIRE Amrit ceremony was conducted with the presence of ALL the Panj Pyare on stage in front of everyone AND in the presence of the Guru Granth Sahib. I would be every intrigued if you have something to present against this.

"They don't need new tat-gurmat khalsa sikhs tell them what is gurmat and what is not !"

N30 S!NGH, that statement smacks of insult and has no place in this post. Now, you read for yourself and tell me if this statement has any relevance to what is being discussed.

[gupt_paapi]

hmm interesting...

[sikhi]

I have also heard about Ajeet Singh, I heard about him from a few people now and all of these people have told me that Bhai Rama Singh use to go Ajeet Singh and get advice. I have not meet Ajeet Singh but this is what I heard the people I have spoken to all say hes good.

Namstang I understand what you are trying to say but maybe you did not explain it well. If one reads Sant Baba Jagjit Singhs book he explain the Method. He tells the Story of how Hes father when to Sant Baba Jawala Singh Jee and learn from Sant Jee.

Also If you read books by Sant Waryam Singh Jee and Sant Ishar Singh Jee they also tell you this method. When one takes Amrit the Punj will install Naam within you, but you can learn how to jaap Naam from anyone with a jeevan, as they is not one way to jaap naam, they are lots of ways but one needs to find a way that one finds easy.

This thing about Naam being Gupt or the method being Gupt is rubbish.

[N30S1NGH]

I have also heard about Ajeet Singh, I heard about him from a few people now and all of these people have told me that Bhai Rama Singh use to go Ajeet Singh and get advice. I have not meet Ajeet Singh but this is what I heard the people I have spoken to all say hes good.

Namstang I understand what you are trying to say but maybe you did not explain it well. If one reads Sant Baba Jagjit Singhs book he explain the Method. He tells the Story of how Hes father when to Sant Baba Jawala Singh Jee and learn from Sant Jee.

Also If you read books by Sant Waryam Singh Jee and Sant Ishar Singh Jee they also tell you this method. When one takes Amrit the Punj will install Naam within you, but you can learn how to jaap Naam from anyone with a jeevan, as they is not one way to jaap naam, they are lots of ways but one needs to find a way that one finds easy.

This thing about Naam being Gupt or the method being Gupt is rubbish.

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Naam Simran Jagutiya by Sant Baba Jawala Singh Harkhowaley

1st technique

First do simran with the help of bakhri bani(recitation of tongue) and focus on trikurti

( between the eye brows) focus so hard and meditate so hard that you are exhausted consequently you will start meditating automatically on throat chakra with Madhma Bani (thought provoked automatic recitation) then focus so hard on madhma bani that it gets exhausted. Again consequently meditation will start in the heart and continue to the Nabhi (Navel). In the navel, guru’s jap awakens the kundalani in the navel. By doing this.,tenth door(dasva dwara) opens. By doing this technique your meditation process never stops and you are experience doesn’t break.

2nd technique.

Meditation using Vahiguroo Mantra...

Meditate with repeating Vahiguroo with your breath. When you inhale, take Vahi with your breath and take it all the way to Nabhi crossing your heart. Then take Gu from your heart to Ru from your trikurt by doing this... Tenth door (dasama dwara) opens..

Next stages (When trikurti opens) you see some light, first you see red then you see white and then you see the light that is so strong that makes thousands of suns and moons look dim but it doesn’t hurt your eyes ..It’s a feeling of calmness and rain of Amrit(Nectar).

That is followed with sweet(celestial ) sounds which are called Panj Shabad (Anhad Shabad)…focus on that shabad but you have to transcend the point that yogi gets to because that point is still bound by creations and its only when your ego dissolves that you achieved what you meant to be achieving..

Naad means sound (dhuni) and there are two types of sound

Aahat and Anhat

1. Aahat caused by two things colliding .This breaks down into thee parts 1. Breath = vocal sound 2. Sound which comes from instruments 3. Combinations of both and that’s where it collides.

2. Anhat: Heaven celestial sounds.

[N30S1NGH]

Sant Jagjit Singh Herkhowal here is narrating the instructions given to his father on how to perform Naam Abhyaas by Baba Jwaalaa Singh Herkhowal.

They are;

Preparations:

1) First recite Japuji Sahib

2) Then perform ardas requesting permission to recite naam and to be devoid of distractions

3) A mat should be laid on the floor, covered by a woolen cloth and then a white sheet

4) A pitcher of water is put to one side

5) The surroundings are adorned with incense and flowers

6) Sit facing the rising sun (east) in sidhaasana

7) Each hand should be placed on the knees in vairaag mudra

8) Keep spine erect, head high

9) To initially control the senses close left eye and with the right focus on the tip of your nose

10) Then recite mool mantar until you have strong concentration

11) Then recite gurmantar - first with baikri bani, then so only you can hear, then in the throat, then heart then navel chakra at belly button

12) This stage will take time but will be achieved with practice

13) once there, fix attention at triputi (between eyebrows)

14) He then explains trikuti and then way to dasam duar

15) The recitation of gurmantar should proceed with 'vaa' in stomach chakra, 'hi' in heart, 'guu' in throat and 'ruu' in triputi.

16) Four types of rasna - baikari (aloud), madama (in throat), pachyanti (voice in hriday/heart), and para bani (nabi).

17) Ru meaning light brings light to triputi (which is above the trikuti)

18) Therefore placing each of the gurmantar in each of the chkras in ascending order

19) explanation is then given of the nature of the experience that arises out of this practice, the final opening of saharakamal chakra and the experience of advaita.

20) There is further guidance on seasonal changes that need to be made, and issues of daily practice.

.

[jagjit_waheguru]

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguruji kefateh

Pyare jio, Bhai Rama Singh ji is not just a name to us, we have spent years with him. I spoke to him in depth about many subjects. He only followed gurbani not any human. He did seva in the Panj Pyares, he told others about naam jugti as part of that seva.

Bhai sahibs book is very comprehensive.

So please, instead of just pushing rumours and misrepresentations as always, try and do something constructive for sikhi.

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguruji kefateh

[N30S1NGH]

Sat Sri Akal:

As per what you are saying, once the Panj Pyare have selected a Jathedar, that Jathedar can feel free to impart Naam technique without the presence of the other Panj Pyare, as their acknowledgement of the Jathedar means their spirit combined is present in the one individual and that individual therefore encompasses the One Guru, at least in the administration of technique.

Yes.

Regardless of whatever the Puratan Maryadas and whatever say, this would not be correct, as THE most elder Puratan Maryada is that of Guru Sahib.  Guru Sahib himself is the example, as he was the first to take Amrit from the Panj Pyare.  Whatever was done was done with the presence of the Panj Pyare at all times.  Bhai Daya Singh is not noted anywhere to have imparted any Gurmat knowledge to Guru Gobind Singh Ji apart from the other Pyare.  Thus, the ENTIRE Amrit ceremony was conducted with the presence of ALL the Panj Pyare on stage in front of everyone AND in the presence of the Guru Granth Sahib.  I would be every intrigued if you have something to present against this. 

Amrit intitation was taken by Guru Sahib through panj pyares.Agreed. He may have been also given naam (though there is no reference for that), all it part of his lela but i find it hard to beleive Guru sahib took naam jugti from panj pyares at all, let alone from bhai dya singh ji. There is no reference of that. It just almost baffles me to even think about it that Guru Sahib who is karak, embodiment of amrit, Guru Avtar of vahiguroo had to also take jugti from panj pyares. There is no need for that. There was specific reason why guru had to take physical intitiation- amrit from pyares which was give to authority of Guru Khalsa panth to panj pyares who were all bhramgyanis. Also top of that Guru Maharaj ji practised when he said:

Vaho Vaho Gobind Singh Ape Gur Chela.

ms514, i understand where you coming from however when you read historical text, you will find in panj pyares mukhi is consider as- bhai dya singh ji a) out of respect because he was the first one to give his shish b) japji sahib mentions- dhaul dharam daya ka poot || without dya dharam is nothing. Daya is shrimoni. Each panj pyares represents:

source: Sant gyani gurbachan singh khalsa bhindranwale

Dya Singh - you have to have Dya

Dharam Singh - when you have Dya you get Dharam

Mohkam Singh - When you get Dharam then eventuall you get mohkam/stability

Himmat Singh - when you have stability you have to apply himmat

Sahib Singh - when you have these 4 characteristics then you are a Singh Sahib.

It's not neccessary to have all the panj pyares present in order to give jagiaso naam jugti since jathedari(mukhi) is automatically consider as bhai dya singh ji and he was given an authority to give naam jugti which all other pyares agrees.It's not against Gurmat.

N30 S!NGH, that statement smacks of insult and has no place in this post. Now, you read for yourself and tell me if this statement has any relevance to what is being discussed.

sorry bro got carried away.