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Lol. Our Guru tells us to pursue truth in all things. This includes our itihaas, no matter how inconvenient the truths of our history may be to our own personal agendas. Some of you still don't seem to understand the point I am making. I never said that no Sikh woman ever wore a dastaar, I never said that it's inappropriate for a bibi to wear a dastaar. My point is that the situation now, where most bibiaan do not wear a dastaar, is not unlike how it has been throughout our history. The AKJ Rehat is the one that was fabricated by British influenced Sikhs, playing pick and mix with the Nihang Rehat by taking bits they liked (keski, sarbloh bibek) and abhorring those elements which were in conflict with their revisionist policies (jhatka, raagmala/raag kirtan). The Nihangs may have been around since Puraatan times, but so has the Damdami Taksaal. Why do they not require their women to wear keskis? I refuse to believe that a group founded in the 20th century is better placed to access the truths of our history than one which came into existence with the physical blessing of Dashmesh Pitaa himself. It is also worth mentioning that not even the Nihang Singhs make the assertion that the dastaar is mandatory for all Sikh women. No puraatan, historic samparda does.

^ Thats absolutely wrong and the irony there is that while you're attempt was to demonstrate the self-loathing, inferiority complex of other Sikhs, particularly Sikh girls, you've actually demonstrated your own inferiority complex because you've criticised your own people without showing any understanding of 'who controls your people' , i.e what happens when a people live under the unethical and immoral rule of a foreign power, in this case India. You see men with turbans dancing while smling, in colourfull clothing, on your TV screens not because that is all men with turbans do but because the nation that occupies those men with turbans wishes to relegate us to a position in society which is nothing more than 'fun-loving people that exist to provide Indians with entertainment'. The way they do this is actually quite clever because if you notice from Indian TV programmes they have a certain way of doing things, a way of ensuring the Indian narrative of 'what these people with turbans exist for' is always maintained. For example, if there is a Hindu singer, or a mona singer with hair cut, they will ensure that all the background dancers are men with turbans and full beards thus giving the singers performance a aura of legitimacy and realism as 'real Punjabi music'. On the other hand, whenever they have a turban and beared singer, for example Malkit singh or Daler Mehndi, they will always ensure the background dancers are Bombay Hindu dancers because essentially, they don't want the performance to appear on the TV screen as too Sikh. They're very clever with what they do and obviously successful in their attempt because they've managed to convince you to hate your own people rather than see what the occupiers and mental slave masters are doing. Essentially then, what you witness on your TV screen is a rape of our culture....rape of our virsa, and like with all rapes one should be looking at blaming the rapists rather than the rape victims, and common consensus is that Indians are the world's most prolific rapists.

Sri Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Sri Waheguru ji ki fateh I'm looking for this shabad, I think it's written by Sri Guru Arjun dev ji, which speaks about a balanced mind and life. It says that if we are very happy then we get very sad, if we laugh a lot then we cry a lot, we should not eat alot and sleep alot, We should not get very exited etc Can someone please help?

To be fair, Anon, the kind of Sikhs in university Sikh societies who think drinking is acceptable aren't the brand of Sikhs upon whose shoulders Khalsa Raaj will be hoisted into being. Those type of Sikhs are more concerned with the transient tastes and moods of whichever era they reside in; their opinions and beliefs change with the wind. They lack faith in the eternal and irrefutable word of God. Their philosophers and their thinkers hold more sway over them than their Guru.

This thread has deteriorated into an asinine discussion and jatha bashing thread and now has been closed. In the future please refrain from bashing jathas and keep discussions respectful OBJECTIVE. Any future personal attacks on individuals or any Sikh groups may warrant a quality control profile mask which will require each post of yours to be manually approved by a moderator or admin. It's very annoying for the poster and the person approving so do yourself a favor and don't get to that point. The relevant posts have been deleted.

Brother, best to find someone you can discuss this issue with one-on-one, because, from my experience, high-avastha Gursikhs don't spend their spare time loafing on internet forums like the rest of us.

You have an unfortunate habit of interpreting things in their most basic and binary terms, and passing that off as fact, based on your own experiences and inherent prejudices. I'm assuming that "dhiley" comment is a dig at me for daring to suggest that religious adherence in certain minority communities post 9/11 has increased, particularly in the display of external religious symbols and garments, almost as a defiant response to the hostility being faced by the members of these communities due to increasing displays of overt and not-so overt prejudice from white host communities. You do understand we - as in Sikhs - in the west don't exist in a vortex where we're immune to the various psychological and sociological influences that non-Sikhs are exposed to? Explain to me why there's been an increase in recent times of bibiya wearing dastaara, MORE SO than in previous years before the subject of religious adherence came into sharp focus, than at any other time in post-modern history, without resorting to reasons that cannot be applied universally. You can't just pluck feel-good, emotive sentiments out of the air to justify your reasons, particularly when those reasons have little basis in what's occurring in the wider world on multiple levels. Someone of your intelligence shouldn't switch off their brain and related faculties when they encounter something that's at odds with their worldview and beliefs. I'm not an historian, so the wider argument about what he or she wore on their head at one time or another is irrelevant and unimportant. Wear what you like, it makes no difference to me. If what's underneath the dastaar is nirra gandh, then it's a futile exercise anyway.

The bhasauria influence on akj is heavily cited by those opposing bhai sahib and the akj. unfortunately for you, there is no evidence to back this claim. Those that have actually read bhai sahibs books/writings.. and there are many of them.. fully realise that his views were influenced by gurbani and gurbani alone. He never followed anyone apart from his guru.. this was his life. He did know teja s bhasauria before his imprisonment when teja singh was a true follower of gurmat and gurbani. When bhai sahib came out of prison and learnt that bhasauria did not believe in bhagat/bhatt banis he refused to meet with him again and warned him to change his stance.. there is a letter by confirming this. Bhai sahib remained true to his word and never met with bhasauria again. Again Balkaar you have based your views on unfounded hearsay and rumours which are in line with your personal prejudices of akj and tat gurmat.

I've never heard that. If anything they would have been sold as slaves or concubines (if attractive and young).

A - Actually several of the 52 Hukams are gender specific - Par istree, ma bhain, dhee bhain, kar jaananee. Par istree da sang nahee karnaa| Istree da mooh nahee phitkaarnaa| Singhaa da adhaa naam nahee bulaunaa Guru Sahib is clearly only addressing Singhs here. It wouldn't be a great intellectual leap therefore to assume that Dastaar binaa nahee rehnaa| may also have been specific to men. It's also very likely that Guru Sahib didn't state that the dastaar is only mandatory for men because this was common knowledge at the time. B - If you're going to use the Nihangs as the historic benchmark for the Sikh rehat, then you should accept jhatka/mahaprashad and sukha as authentic precepts of the rehat as well. But you won't, will you? You can't use the Nihangs when something about them suits your agenda, and then discard them when it doesn't. You can't pick and choose like that. Their rehat is their own, not that of the entire Sikh world. C - That's exactly what I'm saying. Some women wear a dastaar, most don't, and good luck to all of them. The Taksaal however has never made it mandatory for the wives of its members (remember that there technically aren't any woman in the Taksaal, it's male-only) to wear a dastaar and that is the distinction. Do I really have to say it again?... I'll try it one last time - The only point I am making is that dastaars were never mandatory for Sikh women. I'm astonished that so few of you seem capable of digesting such a simple idea. These same historical accounts are also the ones which specify that Mai Bhago dressed 'like a man'. If wearing a dastaar was to dress like a man, then it very strongly implies that it wasn't seen on women very often.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH A) Can anyone here actually post evidence that Guru Sahib stated that women should not have Dastaars? 52 Hukams were not gender specific - one stated Dastaar bina nahi rehna and would apply to all Sikhs. B) Anyone here care to contend that Sikhs were Amritdhari? Per history, the entire Khalsa Panth was divided into Budha Dal and Tarna Dal for administrative reasons, and then to the Misls. Thus, Amritdhari Sikhs = Nihang. The Nihang Bibian are still dastaardhari, and many contend maintain the original form and discipline of the Khalsa. Their Nitnem Gutka defines that every Gursikh man and woman (Singh and Singhni is the wording used) should have a blue keski in their hair. C) Taksal Maryada is not gender specific in ordaining a double Dastaar. Sant Attar Singh/Sant Teja Singh were also proponents of Dastaars (Baru Sahib is a living testament to this). Many women in Taksal also tie Dastaars. So question: Is the oldest Khalsa institution (the Nihangs) and the above Mahapurakhs and Stakar-jog Jathebandian wrong and promoting views that are not Gurmat? Does someone have a reference to where it was ordained that Amritdhari women were told Dastaar was optional? https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3901/14477778109_fd0081aef4_z.jpg https://www.flickr.com/photos/navreetsingh/4647643068 - read story below picture as well.

Sikhee can never die. Why? Because it is the Science of the soul, gifted by Wahiguru Akal Purukh Himself, to us jeevas. Sikhee is a perfect science as said before, for the soul, which if put into practice lovingly,diligently and faithfully, the result is, we get merged into Wahiguru, and become one with Him. Sikhee is not a fashion, or something like politics or any other man made subject, created by manmat, which will pass away.... No. Man has no reach by Himself to Wahiguru, on the contrary, we can say, Sikhee is a precious treasure beyond measure, as valuable as Wahiguru Himself, thus it can never die... and it is through Sikhee, that one can meet eye to eye with our beloved Wahiguru. If some ignorant fools, turn away their faces from the Sun, and prefer darkness, that does not mean, the Sun and the sunshine are being faded away. If we question Sikhee, it only shows, how ignorant we are. Such a pity, being born into sikhee and still we do not profit ourselves Sat Sree Akal.

You totally eliminate any agency on our part with the above. Our own people lap this ish up willingly. I'm talking about another thing outside of Bollywood representations here. I'm talking about our own simple barn dance loving mentality. There was a time for this, and it was innocent. But the fact that A LOT of our people still use this kind of stuff as culturally definitive of ourselves (not because of anyone else), says a lot. There is a complete lack of progression and we are to blame for this more than anyone else. You might be a typical victim mentality pendu type yourself - me, I have higher expectations of ourselves, instead of all the excuses as in the above. And I am disgusted with these obviously simple minded, fun loving representation in the 21st century. We all should be. That doesn't mean I'm self-hating, because I don't see those people as anything but simple idiots who don't know better and have a poor grasp of the world. The problem is that there are too many of them. They should find more beneficial pursuits outside of being a dancing, grinning pendu.

In my relatively short life, I've observed a handful of cases where our people have obtained blessings of a child after a period of not being fortunate enough to conceive. In all of those cases, with the benefit of hindsight and the passage of time, it becomes quite clear why that particular couple or family were not destined to become parents: sometimes, it's just not written for it to happen. Yet, our people, being the stubborn and arrogant individuals they are, believe they know better than God; that somehow he's made a mistake or He's punishing them. It never crosses their minds that maybe, just maybe, He's protecting these people from a set of circumstances and a future that will prove to be impossible for them to handle with that particular coveted child in tow. And when, in the distant future, the full purpose behind the difficulty in obtaining that child is revealed through the natural progression of time, these same parents who'd have sold their own souls for a child, turn around and say, "If we knew this was going to happen, we wish he or she had never been born." Then why were you losing your mind in despair at the time?!

I'll tell you my take on this, brother In Britain, the class system is still alive and kicking. By and large, the non-Asian victims of these brand of crimes are on the lowest rung of the social ladder; what use to be the white 'working classes' before they stopped working and became largely dependent on welfare (for reasons occasionally beyond their control such as government policies, I.E. loss of jobs and prosperity in areas that were hubs of industry before various social and economic upheavals) and became an almost feral underclass that the upwardly mobile (and selfish) middle class and ruling upper classes turn their noses up at. The white man belonging to these middle classes and upper classes likes to pretend their brethren in these disadvantaged areas doesn't exist, and that all problems these people encounter are of their own doing. In effect, it's basically a mentality of, "You're on your own." Once you get immigrant communities moving into these same areas, in this case Pakistanis, and observing these girls from broken homes have no protection from their families, and realising how strongly a sense of uncaring ambivalence pervades the authorities such as social services, etc, they take advantage of the situation, because they know the white man in-charge has largely given up on these people. They're easy pickings. Generally, that's how things have reached this level of bad. As much as we should never absolve the Pakistanis for their depravity, the truth is the ruling and aspirational whites have hung out to dry a significant section of their own people for decades. When a society is fractured along those lines, you will inevitably encourage vultures such as these Pakistani sex gangs to isolate and feast on the stragglers who've been betrayed by their own. And the whites have the audacity to lecture South Asians on their proclivity for the caste system! They should look closely at their own streets and realise how they've sold out entire generations of whites for their own greed and self-interest.

Brother, Sikhi will never die! Mir Mannu, Zakriya, Indra, Badal, etc. have all tried to eliminate Sikhism. It will never happen brother. These actions in these videos are deplorable but they are happening under Waheguru's will. These people are not Sikhs.

i thought the Punjabi name for restroom/bathroom is 'digi'? LOL!!!!