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Brother, best to find someone you can discuss this issue with one-on-one, because, from my experience, high-avastha Gursikhs don't spend their spare time loafing on internet forums like the rest of us.

Given how this is the ultimate warrior's position, ensuring he is forever ready for battle, I can't help wondering why either that side or the other should be enforcing their right-footed (right-handed) ideals as a ritual on left-handers and vice versa ? If one particular knee is enforced as a ritual than one way or another either the left-handers or right-handers are going to be disadvantaged as a warrior which in itself would be making a mockery of being in the warrior's position. In other words, rituals is the key word here. Our Guru, as always, gave us something quite beautiful and profound but man, as usual, has turned it into a ritual. So, lets take our marriage ceremony as an example: Our forefathers left Hinduism because it was a religion full of meaningless rituals. So they left the darkness and came into the light. Since then however, man in the Sikh faith, has added so many rituals that the Sikh wedding ceremony, and other aspects, has more rituals involved than the Hinduism one our forefathers left behind because of too many rituals. Indeed, we have reached a stage where a man may well be able to leave Sikhism and join Hinduism and cite his primary reason for doing so the fact that Sikhism is jam-packed with way too many rituals. Man, himself, has created an upside down world.

The SGPC, after they demolished all the beautiful historic bungaay (which we commemorate in our ardaas every day, in a sick twist of irony, praying that they stand for all time - "Chounkiya Chandae Bungaay jugo jug atal") scattered around the sarovar in order to widen the parikrama. Visitors to the city of Amritsar noted that these bungaay were among the very best representations of Sikh art and architecture, their edifices covered with murals and intricate engravings. There is no meaning behind these tiles other than the willful destruction of our history for the sake of 'beautification' and greed (maintaining the artwork of the bungaay would have cost the SGPC a lot of cash). The Gurdwara management of Takhat Sri Hazur Sahib did the same thing, destroying the historic Bunga of the Ramgharia Misl, among other things, so that they could carpet bomb the place with marble. This trend is repeating itself in countless historic Guru Ghars. Several of the mango trees at Gurdwara Amb Sahib, dating back to Guru Gobind Singh's time, were also chopped down to accommodate new marble tiling, and others strangled to death by all the stone. These revolting men have no respect for Sikh Itihaas.

I did have the option of learning tanti saaz from namdharis in East Ham but my heart wouldn't let me as I knew they went against Guru Pita ji's adesh Guru Maniyo Granth ... there are Sikh alternatives for instance learning at Karamsar Gurdwara via Raj academy students . Where there is a will there is a way , now that a proportion of namdharis have rejoined Khalsa Panth by doing pesh maybe there will be less hardship regaining gurmat sangeet knowledge . Remember that Raagi Avtar SIngh ji wrote books on purataan reets and gurmat sangeet going back to time of Guru Hargobind Ji Maharaj plus we also have Baru Sahib sangeet Academy and Jawaddi Kalan Taksal

Great post Singh Ji. But I will say that our panth can learn a lot from Namdharis. They have mastered the art of kirtan. The majority of our ragis don't have anywhere near the kirtan discipline that these people have.

If you believe in Guru ji's bachan and live accordingly all differences will fall away anyway even between dharams as one progresses, I had amrit in AKJ jatha rehnsabhai at age 9 and I've mixed in so many groups of SIkhs since thne I'm 47 now and I have never heard any hatred or backbiting they all see SIkh brothers and sisters , it's only the youngsters who don't know much about the path that seem to put right wrong labels to everything that another group does compared to their own ... I didn't know about Bhai Randhir SIngh ji's personal history beforehand but everything I read since illustrates he had big Love for Guru ji and tried to live life strictly adhering to rehit . Other sikhs who have high avasta will always encourage sikhs to be ik mut not seperated. Obviously those people claiming sikhi but are carrying on in an unsikh way like Namdharis, radha soamis and nirankaris the Gursikhs will advise to avoid their sangat, that they have earned Guru ji's displeasure but not hate these guys. Heretic is an abrahamic term , sikhi beautiful because it just says either you are with us or not , if not, that's your choice good luck. (I know some misguided peeps get rabid but they are not representative of true sikh attitude)

Thanks Singh Ji for this response. Unfortunately, this is not surprising. This just causes more questions amongst Sikh youth who are keen to join the righteous path but have to question differences such as these. May Waheguru bring the entire panth together.

From Ang 534 ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ ੫ ॥ Ḏevganḏẖārī 5. Dayv-Gandhaaree, Fifth Mehl: ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਾ ਪ੍ਰਿਅ ਬਚਨ ਤੁਹਾਰੇ ॥ Amriṯā pari▫a bacẖan ṯuhāre. O Beloved, Your Words are Ambrosial Nectar. ਅਤਿ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਮਨਮੋਹਨ ਪਿਆਰੇ ਸਭਹੂ ਮਧਿ ਨਿਰਾਰੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ Aṯ sunḏar manmohan pi▫āre sabẖhū maḏẖ nirāre. ||1|| rahā▫o. O supremely beautiful Enticer, O Beloved, You are among all, and yet distinct from all. || 1||Pause|| ਰਾਜੁ ਨ ਚਾਹਉ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਚਾਹਉ ਮਨਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲਾਰੇ ॥ Rāj na cẖāha▫o mukaṯ na cẖāha▫o man parīṯ cẖaran kamlāre. I do not seek power, and I do not seek liberation. My mind is in love with Your Lotus Feet. ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਮਹੇਸ ਸਿਧ ਮੁਨਿ ਇੰਦ੍ਰਾ ਮੋਹਿ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਹੀ ਦਰਸਾਰੇ ॥੧॥ Barahm mahes siḏẖ mun inḏrā mohi ṯẖākur hī ḏarsāre. ||1|| Brahma, Shiva, the Siddhas, the silent sages and Indra - I seek only the Blessed Vision of my Lord and Master's Darshan. ||1|| ਦੀਨੁ ਦੁਆਰੈ ਆਇਓ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਸਰਨਿ ਪਰਿਓ ਸੰਤ ਹਾਰੇ ॥ Ḏīn ḏu▫ārai ā▫i▫o ṯẖākur saran pari▫o sanṯ hāre. I have come, helpless, to Your Door, O Lord Master; I am exhausted - I seek the Sanctuary of the Saints. ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮਿਲੇ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਮਨੁ ਸੀਤਲ ਬਿਗਸਾਰੇ ॥੨॥੩॥੨੯॥ Kaho Nānak parabẖ mile manohar man sīṯal bigsāre. ||2||3||29|| Says Nanak, I have met my Enticing Lord God; my mind is cooled and soothed - it blossoms forth in joy. ||2||3||29||

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh I don't have very much knowledge on this topic, I have however asked this question to knowledegable Gurmukhs. They all agree that the Puratan tradition has always been to sit during the Laavan and not stand. This is not a Taksal only belief. Nihang Singh Dals, Takhats, other Sampardas and Akhand Kirtani Jatha believe in sitting during Laavan. You may notice that recently some Sikh youth stand during Laavan, this is a new thing as Sikh Rehit Maryada (draft) published by SGPC has been forcefully pushed on the Panth. If you ask the older Gurmukhs in AKJ, they will tell you that sitting during Laavan is indeed the tradition. Basically, long story short....in order for SGPC to make the Sikh Rehit Maryada different from the Puratan Maryada, they had to make some changes or else it would've been quite similar. A few of the unfortunates changes SGPC made are: - Standing during Laavan, not sitting. - During Bir Asan position, keep the left knee raised instead of right. All other organizations raise the right knee. - Parvaan to Degh instead of Bhog. - Shortened Banis - Padh ched instead of Larivaar The list goes on and I don't want to fuel a discussion to create differences. But my view is simple, since SGPC has created their Maryada...how has the Panth benefitted? One Gurmukh was so troubled at the changes made by the SGPC, he said a powerful quote: 'However many Padh Cheds are done to Gurbani, that's how many groups will be made....once the Panth restores the Puratan tradition of connecting the words as Larivaar, only then will the Panth connect as one' Apologies for mistakes.

Example of a Near Death Experience (NDE) life review: Person Highlight event of his whole life on Earth. One example of my life review was when I was a little kid. We were traveling by car and stopped somewhere along the way. There was a river not far from the road and I was asked to go and bring some water in a bucket from that river. I went to fill up the bucket but on my way back, I felt that the bucket was way too heavy for me. I decided to empty some of the water to make the bucket lighter. Instead of emptying the water right there, I noticed a tree that was alone by itself in a dry patch of land. I took the effort to go out of my way to that tree and emptied some of the water at the tree base. I even waited there a few seconds to make sure the water is soaked in the soil and is absorbed. In my life review, I received such an applaud and joy for this simple act that it is unbelievable. It was like all the spirits in the Universe were filled with joy from this simple act and were telling me we are proud of you. That simple act seemed to be one of the best things I had ever done in my life! This was strange to me, because I didnt think this little act was a big deal and thought I had done much more important and bigger things. However, it was shown to me that what I had done was extremely valuable because I had done it purely from the heart, with absolutely no expectation for my own gain. Circumstances of the NDE: I left very early in the morning, around 2 am. Back in those days, the road was not that good and was not a highway, just a two-way road. At some point along the way when I was close to the city of Ghoochan, I noticed a car from the other lane was in my lane and the headlights were beaming right towards me. I tried to steer to the right to avoid a collision but the road shoulders were so narrow. I collided head-on with that car. My car spun a few times and fell off the road, which was several feet lower than the road itself. I was critically injured, but luckily a few minutes later, a passenger bus was passing by and saw the accident scene and stopped Suddenly, I felt that everything shifted. I felt a deep calm and peace engulfing me. This feeling was totally opposite to what I was feeling a few minutes ago. I was not angry anymore and I was seeing perfection in everything in the world and around me. Now I was feeling that everything is exactly the way it should be. Whenever I focused my attention to any object or subject, I could get deep and complete insights into that matter. I could even understand the chemical compositions of objects I looked at and all its physical and mathematical properties. I shifted my attention to that young woman again. She seemed a little different than a few minutes ago. I noticed that I am seeing her like 360 degrees around her, like I have totally engulfed her. I could see her thoughts and feelings as well. In fact, I felt that I am present in the entire hospital. I could see that she had a lot of sadness and worry about what she was seeing. In summary we are all one having an illusion of separation. So do for other what you do for yourself.

This forum is good for vichaar; the exchanging of opinions and sharing of ideas. For those who don't have access to sangat, it's essential IMO, as long as everyone's behaving in the correct spirit of obtaining knowledge.

Sorry to digress for a moment. It's almost worthy of a stand alone post on this forum. MisterSingh's comments earlier in this thread about refraining from making arguments personal assist us all in learning from one another. I am certainly not immune to this mistake and it takes ongoing work. It's not always easy to find the right mix of passion and reason. We can detract from our own interesting points by making things personal. MisterSingh's approach is not a mere strategy or surface communication. It's a state of mind that's integral to any saint-soldier. Beautiful thoughts and approach bro.

Well, they were trying to extinguish fires they created themselves. And it's definitely not as straightforward as "fighting Islam." If it was, the U.S. would've turned Saudi Arabia into a crater by now, the home of the extreme Wahabbi ideology that's been exported internationally. If Amreeka was serious about nullifying the Islamic threat, they'd start by telling the Saudi royals to go flip themselves. Instead, they're treating them with kid gloves. And anyone expecting a potential Trump regime to get tough with them is living in a fantasy world.

I would think such an issue, ultimately, would be between the individual in question and God. Of course, that doesn't stop others offering their opinions.

And I'm fine with that. Remember, I'm the one that says its none of our goddamn business what is or isn't in anyone's scriptures. Maybe one day, when I or you have found perfection in everything we do and know we might be justified in spending time finding fault in others but, as it stands, I think our time would be better used in spiritually uplifting ourselves. Is it though, Balkar ? Or is that what the 'big men' in power, who are stealing the wealth of the world and destroying the wealth of the earth want us to believe in order to distract us from what's really happening in the world ? Every day, they are putting pesticides in our foods, children throughout the world are dying of cancer, natural resources are being depleted, they're putting more black youngsters in jails than in college, their racism means our children with their degrees have a tiny chance of getting a job compared to white children etc etc......and yet neither you nor I know a single person personally whose life has been either ended or made intolerable because of 'Islam'. Its a game they're playing with our minds. Getting us to irrattionaly hate. I mean of course radical Islam is abhorent and must be stopped buts its something that must be tackled sensibly and rationally. To do that, things must be put into perspective. In order to do that, one must realise that there are those that want to plant seeds of hate in your head (media and men in power) in order to distract you from the real issues.

Why would you even want to do that or even think about doing that ? Is it not a sign of mental illness ? After all, I and others could follow your example of propogating needless hate aginst other religions and also quote verses of the Christian Bible in order to convince others that Christians are facists. I could, if I had the same inclination quote Exodus 21:20 which says "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property." I could quote Leviticus 25:44-46 which says " Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life" I could quote Deuteronomy 20:10-15 which says "When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby" I could quote Leviticus 20:10 which says "If a man suspects his wife of adultery, he can force her to undertake a "trial by fire" where she drinks a magic potion that makes her barren if she is guilty. This is similar to the "trial by water" in the Code of Hammurabi where suspected adulteresses are thrown into a river to see if they float" (Note that there is no such test for men suspected of adultery, only women.) I could quote Deuteronomy 22:13-21 which says "If a man takes a wife and, after lying with her, dislikes her and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, "I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity," then the girl's father and mother shall bring proof that she was a virgin to the town elders at the gate. The girl's father will say to the elders, "I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. Now he has slandered her and said, 'I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.' But here is the proof of my daughter's virginity." Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, and the elders shall take the man and punish him. They shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver a and give them to the girl's father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives. If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house" I could quote verses from the bible that say rape is not a real crime, especially if the girl's screams are not sufficiently loud enough and essentially, 'if you break it-you buy it', such as Deuteronomy 22:23-27 which says "If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife" Or....seeing how it is Sunday today, lets see what the Christian scriptures say we must do to those who worked today instead of resting, such as Walmart-Asda staff today. Exodus 31 verse 15 tells us exactly what to do: "For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death" I could go on with this superkaur but you see where I'm going don't you ? The point is that you and I are not Christians or Muslims. What is or isn't in their scriptures is none of our business. Its up to them to find truth and enlightenment. Pointing out faults in their faith does our own spiritualy no good. We only need to be concerned with uplifting ourselves. Therefore, you need to spend less time hating others and more time finding love in yourself.

Miss Wynne was honored, as she ought to have been, the Indian media's reports were wrong. By unquestioningly posting their unfounded lies Hundal has shown that he possesses none of the investigative faculties of a real journalist - he's little more than a reactionary regurgitating any old sh1te which suits his agenda like some bloody mother bird. By the way, your homophobia is disgusting and anti-Sikh.

I'm not supporting Sunny Hundal, in fact I happen to think he's a complete and utter tosspot. But, unlike you, I happen to know the difference between someone I disagree with politically and a facist. One is an and the other one is plain evil. The kind of things one says lead to men, women and children being physically attacked. You need to reassess your whole approach to this and understand the whole concept of evil. Which brings me to your very last point.....the bit where you insinuate that supporting facists is a "Sikh issue" and that anyone that does not do so must be an "undercover sunny hundal supporter and not a sikh". With thinking like that superkaur, I think you'll feel very much at home in that facist party so perhaps your'e right....perhaps you do belong in the tommy robinson camp after all. 3 points here: Firstly, "fantasising" ???? Secondly, the 1970's cannot, by very definition, and common sense, be the 1960's. And thirdly, how many people looking like Indra Gandhi have you ever seen working in a Britsh factory ?? I've been accused of many things before, but I must admit, this is the first time anyone's ever accused me of having a sexual fetish for indra gandhi lookalikes.

He can't be a racist becaue he's got black friends !! Well, that pretty much sums that up. I don't think I need to add any more.

We're all 'liberal'. This is a fair minded liberal country. There is no place in this country for viscious racist facists like Tommy Robinson just as there is no place for neo-Islamic facists. Any 'Sikh' that supports a hate-filled facist bigot like Tommy Robinson is a self-loathing, gullible, easily manipulated ignorant fool. The kind of fools that don't even realise that their fathers, mothers, grandfathers and gandmothers built the great UK Sikh community we have today by physically fighting and destroying men like Tommy Robinson and the organisations they represent. To think that their sacrifices went in vain, only for the current generation like Hammertime and superkaur to turn around and spit on their bravery and fortitude by supporting these evil facists makes me feel incredibly incredibly sad.

F**k both of them.