West London Singh

But thats just the thing....How will she know about the close 'blood relationship' if she forgets about his and her own history ? Every one of us here agrees that 'Caste' has no place in Sikhism. It does not exist. But that doesn't mean we should put our heads in the sand and hide away from reality. The realty is that if she comes from a 'Jatt' background, the surname is an etremely important pointer of which clan she comes from....i.e a single ancestor. Obviously if she has a more common surname such as Gill, Brar etc than there is more likelihood that the single ancestor was way far back in the bloodline with minimal chance of deformities in the child that she and another of the surname has. However, if, like most Jatts, she has one of the surnames that is peculiar to a particular tehsil of a particular district and not found anywhere else, you can be sure that the common ancestor was very recent and both she and the boy are practically siblings. Lets take the surname 'Dosanjh' as an example as it's well known at the moment with the film star Diljit Dosanjh and the Canadian politician (as well as Canada's most infamous gangsters). The surname is only found in 3 villages in the same small area in District Jalandhar. It is not found anywhere else. Both of the other 2 Dosanjh villages only started to exist when the Dosanjh's of the first village (Powadra in district Jalandhar) split and formed their own villages in the 1800's. So, even relatively recently they were all part of the same family practically in the same household. This 'clan' / district based surname phenonema is only really present among the Jatts as the other Sikh groupings more or less have generic surnames that cut across all district boundaries. In much the same way that English surnames are based on occupation or simply an didentification with a particular grouoing.That is why Kahtris and Arora Sikhs for example, have exactly the same tradition as the Muslims and marry their own Chacha, Thaya, Pooah and Mamma's sons and daughters. Thats not the way the majority of us Sikhs want to go. We don't want to go 'too far' one way or the other. We need to maintain some common sense. Common sense dictates that we understand our history....i.e who we are, where we come from etc. To understand where you're going you have to first understand where you're coming from. To step blindly into the future is to gamble. And the thing you'll be gambling with is your future child's health.

As a father of 2 young boys, each trying to find his way to truth (waheguru) by asking many questions and seking even more answers, this question reminds me of my own struggles growing up. I would have what we termed 'reasoning' sessions with Jamaican and Muslim friends. Anyone that has followed my long journey on sikhsangat knows that I can hold my own when it comes to politics but am hopelessly inadequate when it comes to what really matters in terms of faith : Spiritual. But 'spiritual' is where they caught me out and I fear they will thnk they can catch my kids out. "Why"....they would ask....."why", when I explained to them that should they should not sit in the Gurdwara with their feet towrds SGGS ji, "why then was it wonderful and spiritual for our 'leader' and 'founder' to sit with his feet towards their most holiest of holiest ?". "Did sikhism espouse that other relgions were only worthy of disrespect whilst only Sikhism was worthy of respect ?", they would ask. I never knew what to say. I knew how I showed respect to my Guru as my 'teacher' in life by not pointing my feet towards 'Him' but how do I justify my Guru Ji pointing his feet towards the thing he holds equally as dear ? They always said they love Sikhs so much but there are just so so many holes in Sikhism its so easy to win the reasoning session. I was always too good and nice to mention the flaws of charater in their founder(S). Environmentalism became fashionable. In my reasoning sessions I started to mention how Sri Guru Har Rai was 500 years ahead of today's environmentalists, i.e the world's foremost environmentalist. " He created a unique sactuary", I would say, for every living organism that God created. At Kiratpur sahib, he created a 'green' utopia that today's 'greens' can only dream about. ". He gave sanctuary and love to every animal no matter how sick. Even the Mughal Emporer", I would say, "came to Guru Ji for some herbal remedy to save his dying son. Guru ji gave him the medicine , an it saved the boy. "But then how"....my non-Sikh reasoning mates would ask. " If it is so that your 7th guru was the world's first and most supreme animal lover, how is it that your following gurus saw it fit to go hunting ?" With questions such as those posed in this thread, I often wonder if my sons will be any better than I in offering a retort.

Around 90% of the radhaswamis in my village are from a chamar background. Around 90% of radhaswamis in my wife's village are from a chamar background. Unless my pend and my wife's pend are completely at odds with every other village in Punjab I don't see how you can come to the conclusion that most radhaswamis are from a jatt background. The facts of why most of them are radhaswamis though are clear and should serve us with motivation of where we're going wrong and what we need to do. Every radhaswami I ever came across in my village became one for the same reason and stayed one for another reason: Became one = Either they or someone in their family was addicted to alcohol / drugs and the radhaswamis offer support and facilities to get them off it. Stayed one = because of the cleansiness. Their deras and facilities are famous for having hygeine, cleansiness and serenity that far surpasses anything in the west. The radhaswamis organisations know what they are doing. They know only a fool would prefer the dirt, filth and unorganised chaos that is the rest of Punjab once they taste and feel the super clean radhaswami deras. So.....The (the organisation) know how to hook people hook, line and sinker. Both those steps are things we Sikhs could offer people ourselves if we put our act together. Instead, for example, our authorities have made decisions like they did last year, i.e to build a super modern, clean facility specificaly for VIP's (Bollywood actors and singers) at the Golden Temple so they won't have to mingle with us working class scumbags. Our priorities are wrong. Others will naturally take advantage of our failings.

There was another thread in which someone pointed out how radhaswamis tend to be mentally ill. You've proven that here. What makes you think Sikhs regard a cult with teachings totally at odds with Sikhism as a 'Sikh' sect ? As I pointed out in my previous message Sikhs don't hate anybody but what they 'hate' is the way that radhaswamis label themselves Sikhs when they have a belief system that is as far removed from Sikhism as Shintoism. Your own Radhaswami organisation websites credit the name with the wife of your founder. Hence, 'radhaswami' is 'Radha's husband. Hence radhaswami is shiv bloke. A leader that was extremely fond of tobacco and hence even taught his followers to consume tobacco. Only a mentally ill person would regard such people as being part of the sikh dharma. As someone already mentioned, you people are mentally ill.

And thats exactly my point Johnny. The people who assert the Hindu origins of some Sikh things will only learn the error of their ways when they are confronted by others doing exactly the same thing as them and asserting the Islamic origin of many Sikh things. Only then will these 'Hindu origin' fanatics learn the error of their ways. You'll often hear these Hindu agenda Sikhs talking about the so=called Hindu origins of things like the 5 K's but have you ever, in your life, heard any of them mention the Islamic nation origins of such things as the words, Dasatar...Dastar Bandi.. Sardar.....etc ? These people are taking us on a slippery rope and they won't learn until others use their own agenda to bite them on the bottom with it. As I stated in a previous message...both are equally wrong. Both groups are equally misguided.

You're very gullible if you think thats all 'some people' here were trying to say. If thats the only point they wished to make them how come they always go deaf, blind and positively mute when it comes to the Islamic heritage of many Sikh traditions, customs and words. How come these 'some people' never ever want to mention such things ? They never do because it goes against their purpose. Their purpose is to forge such close links with Hinduism so as to render Sikhism obselete as a stand alone religion in its own right. They have an agenda, but they need your gullible self to fulfill their agenda.

Quite literaly, 'Radha' is the mistress of some Hindu god called Krishna. It was also the name given to their original leader's wife : Naaryan Devi. 'Swami' means lord. So....these radhswamis are by definition lords of either Krishna's wife or some random fellas wife. Either way, its the height of stupidity, especially for Sikhs who by definition do not believe that any man is any lord of any woman. So....do Sikhs hate them ? No. Of course not. The only thing Sikhs hate is the way these radhaswamis, who are obviously followers of a faith and system totallly alien and opposite to the teachings of Sikhism, then pass themselves off as Sikhs. So....when you come across a radhaswami remember....he or she is, in reality, about as Sikh as Vladimir Putin.

15 to 20,000 in California, mostly young. 50,000 plus in London, mostly young. What will it take to awaken the Canadian sangat from their slumber ? Add bhangra and a mela to the equation and they come out in force.

Don't know which country you're in but if its the UK you need to understand the Law is with you. And, as a Sikh, you (along with Jews) actually have more rights according to the Law than Christians, Hindus and Muslims. My advice to you then, is keep a written record of everything that happens. Dates, times etc. That is your ammunition. Arm yourself with it. If it is racism....and it continues.....Take them to the cleaners with your firepower.

If I had to guess....I'd say Mississauga. But somewhere in Toronto nonetheless. Sikhs in the UK probably don't realise this because they don't often see Canadian Sikhs whinging and crying like babies the way we UK ones do...but Hindus outnumber Sikhs 2 to 1 in Toronto and Muslims there outnumber Sikhs 3 to 1. My advice to you 'ghettosikh' is to not pick up the bad pessimistic and complaining attitude from many of the UK sikhs on this forum. You Canadian Sikhs have a reputation for being a very positive and optimistic people. Stay that way.

Funny thing about these Sikhs that love to acknowledge the Hindu origins of Sikh things. Something happens to their tongue and ability to speak or write when it comes to the Muslim origin of Sikh things. They go strangely silent. They use the Hindu origin argument to argue their case that Sikhism begat from Hinduism and is still part of it. Using their own strange logic then, we must have acknowledged and begat from Islam. After all, many of our wordsand traditions such as Sardar, Khalsa, Shaheed, nihung, dastar, dastar bandi etc come from Islamic nations to our north rather than Hindu India to our south. Thats what these 'Hindu' origin fanatics need to understand. If they insist on pressing the Hindu culture case they must understand and accept that others could just as easily press the Islam case. Both, are equally wrong.

If I had a penny for every time I'd heard that.......I'd be just as poor as I am today.

You're right 13Mirch. They should try to be more like those other urban lot. You know, the ones that are mentioned in a verse in SGGS ji, where it mentiones how those lot are so superficial and only in it for the money to such an extent they even change religions in order to protect their money : "The K******s have abandoned their religion (for Islam and Hinduism) and embraced a foreign language (Arabic and Hindi)" You're so right, these pendus should have run instead of fighting. They're so backward in the way they don't worship idols and photographs. I saw one once and he was so backward he didn't even light poojas and incence sticks in honour of statues. And then I met another one and I couldn't believe how backward he was. His wife was pregnant, they found out it was a girl, and they didn't even kill it. I mean how backward is that ? And then I met another one, his son got married, the daughter in law didn't bring tons of gold and money with her, and they didn't even set her on fire. My god, these people are so backward its unreal. You are just so right. I mean the nerve of these pendus....coming to the west a century ago, working day and night, laying the foundations for your existence here just so you could then turn around and urinate on them and their sacrifices for you. These people will never learn 13Mirch. They'll never be as good as you. But no one can. Thats because you're really really brilliant.

Why do do you not 'think' that ? Surely when people from an urban background are labelled 'rural' just because they've done something bad thats being disrespectful to rural folk ? As another poster above stated, most of Punjab's terrible ills exist predominately amongst it's urban classes. It is the urban classes that murder most of their daughters just for being female. It is the urban classes that murder most of their daughter in laws just for not bringing enough money and gifts in dowry. It is the urban Sikhs that have most dilluted Sikhism with Hinduism. It is the urban classes that have mostly turned their back on their mother tongue and embraced a foreign language (Hindi). Contrary to popular belief it is in the urban areas where drug addiction is highest. So 'think' again.

'Pendus' ? :wow: When urban Sikhs do something good you'll say it's because they're urban and cultured but when urban Sikhs do something bad you equate them with the rural folk. Doubt this man or his family has ever stepped foot in a 'pend'. Should I start a thread now about the backward shari lok ? What is the heritage of those with the name 'Mirgind' ?

This threads been around a while and is getting longer with messages. The outsider looking in, would think from reading the messages, that the gist of the news story is about intolerant muslims and Sikhs struggling to assert their rights amongst them. That, could not be further from the truth. The Sikhs in Pakistan are demanding the authorities in Pakistan take a harsh line against the Hindus in Pakistan (in Sindh province) who have been increasingly committing henious acts against Sikh scriptures. Recap: Hindus (not muslims) have been committing disgustingly blasphemous acts against Sikh scriptures and the Sikhs stormed the Pakistani parliament to demand the authorities take action against those Hindus.

I think the real lesson to be learned here is how blunt our kirpans are. Last year we had 4 UK Sikhs trying to cut the throat of Gen. Brar with a kirpan that turned out to be as blunt as a children's toy sword. Now we have dozens of people visibly hacking away at each other's body parts with long swords resulting in relatively minor injuries. I think the world, and that includes right wing hindus and muslims, can clearly see that our kirpans are actually as lethal as a freshly baked baguette.

We're an established UK settled family with our roots here going back 60-70 years. One thing my elders keep saying is that how wonderful it is that more and more young sikhs, with each passing generation, are keeping their hair. Even relatively recently when I was growing up Sikhs with uncut hair was a rarity. Now, they are the norm. Now, there are more than there have ever been in recent memory. Point is, outside of India, which is a cesspit, there are more youths with beards and kesh than there have ever been before. Point is, lets not see the glass as half empty when its actually half full.

We should never expect much from Amnesty International. They are an organisation with beautifull roots but one which has become seriously tainted because of the plethora of Indian Hindus that hold high positions within it. Even the current secretary General of Amnesty is an Indian hindu. Even out of the 8 that make up the Global Council, 3 are Indian hindus. The former head, up until recently, of Amnesty UK was an Indian hindu woman. One of the former heads of Amnesty was another Indian Hindu woman who was a niece of Nehru. She's the one that set up the Southall Black Sisters around here. She was forced to resign by Amnesty. Indians have the midas touch in reverse. Whatever they touch turns to tutti. Amnesty is seriously contaminated and discredited right now. It doesn't speak against India because it's directors love India.

Mark Tully was supposed to be serving Britain (i.e. serving us) in India, and it was us (the British taxpayer) that was paying him his wages through the licence fee to bring us the truth. Instead, he served India. India was so grateful they gave him India's highest honour for 'Services to India'. Says all you need to know about Mark Tully.

We need to look at these things with educated eyes and with a proper perspective. When we do, we find things ain't quite how the headlines say. The way Punjab, and India as a whole, counts it's "drug addicts' is by including anyone that drinks a beer, drinks wine, has more cough syrup than recommended and takes more painkillers than really neccessary. If the rest of the world were to use the same 'drug addict' counting rules as Punjab, 99.9% of England , Canada and Australia would officialy be declared drug addicts.

I get the impression most of you don't know how bad today's 'older generation' were when they were young. Today's young generation of Sikhs are saints and monks in comparison from a moral point of view. For example, during my grandfathers time the old Havelock Road Gurdwara in Southall in the early 1970's was where the men would sit in the langar hall (which was an outside tent back then) with bottles of whiskey on Sunday late afternoons. Opium, gambling, extra marital affairs etc........things are so much better these days. Young Sikhs are so much more moral these day than they used to be.

The 'parting shot' insult you started your message with would have been more effective if you used it at the end of your message. To wish me 'good day sir' and then go on to talk to me is all a bit silly in terms of productive use of the English language. However, given how you then go on to call anyone that disapproves of guns as a 'homosexual' grammar and literary prose seems to be the least of your problems.

Baba Aziz isn't Turkish. It's primarily Arabic with nods to Persian. I would agree however that it is the single most apt movie for Sikhs not only because of its sublime spirituality from a Sufi point of view but essentially when we watch it we see and feel Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji walking through those very same deserts during on his way to Baghdad and Mecca. The one other movie I would recommend for all Sikhs because of its profound deeper message is the Mongolian epic blockbuster 'Myna Bala'. It's story resonates so well with us Sikhs. Imagine for one moment Braveheart, but with a much higher budget, much more action, much better acting. The result is Myn Bala. A truly epic movie. Like us Sikhs the Minority were persecuted and so had to live in the forests with a price on their head. Like us Sikhs, they used that time to learn the art of warfare and become masters of the horse. They then emerged from the mountains and forests and not only took back their lands but became masters of their nation.

The exact opposite has been happening for the last 20 years. Particularly here in the UK and places like Italy, in the previous generation only about 1% of Sikhs practiced any form of shastar vidya or had even ever held a sword. Today, it is the norm among Sikh youths to be part of gatka classes and knowledge of the sword. I admit it is different in Canada though. In the UK, my children and all my relative's children religiously learn gatka. The children of all my close relatives in canada though all religiously learn to dance the bhangra. Here at least, participation in gatka has grown by at least 500% and growing all the time. Enlightenment comes quicker to those named Jaswinder and Kuldeep and slower to those named Steve, Vanessa, Gavin and Peter.