Slurs 'n' Simran - at 1984 June Rally

[AK-47]

Sorry one last point, also please see the shabads on Ang 1288 which i fell is particularly of importance here, first time i have read it to be honest but you'll see what i mean when you read it.

Also ang 1356 where guru ji slams us for not having guru jis mantar. Again very heavy insults from guru ji aimed at the manmukh!

Enjoy!

[Nama Singh]

VJKK VJKF

AK-47, i know you have a lot more passion than most when it comes to something you believe in strongly about and thats good. Its one of those issues where we could discuss the matter until people are blue in the face.

The below quote is taken from SikhiToTheMax.com

naanak fikai boliai than man fikaa hoe ||

fiko fikaa sadheeai fikae fikee soe ||

fikaa dharageh satteeai muhi thhukaa fikae paae ||

fikaa moorakh aakheeai paanaa lehai sajaae ||1||

Shalok, First Mehl:

O Nanak, speaking insipid words, the body and mind become insipid.

He is called the most insipid of the insipid; the most insipid of the insipid is his reputation.

The insipid person is discarded in the Court of the Lord, and the insipid one's face is spat upon.

The insipid one is called a fool; he is beaten with shoes in punishment. ||1||

The "Chardhee Kalaa" of a Khalsa is to never break the laws of Gurmat. Are you saying that because you are in battle you can break the laws of Gurmat?

Swearing is "fikaa bolnaa" as mentioned in the above Shabad. If Fikaa Bolnaa law can be broken which other laws of Gurmat can be broken(these are Atal Bachan of Satguru and have been true throughout the ages and will be true forever). Are you sure you are not concealing a weakness by trying to justify it?

and as it also says in Rehatnama...

gurU kw isK gMd-vwkI nw hovY

guroo kaa sikh ga(n)dhaavaakee naa hovai

The Sikh of the Guru should never speak disgusting speech.

So never mind disgusting speech.... people gave into performing disgusting things and yes, spitting is disgusting.

Yes, you can say people used to swear n stuff at battle time to "scare" the opponent, but firstly, that dont mean it was right. Secondly... INDIRA GANDHI is DEAD. *shock horror*

And yes, i agree with you ak-47, i dont know how to speak so i dont speak - id rather not cause trouble and im sure u know ak-47 jee that there was arguments on the march right from the start - whether it be about banners or who was walking infront or woteva. And i dont force my own opinions on anyone else either as i know that there are a lot Singhs and Singhnia who would disagree about my statements, whether its anti-gurmat, gurmat or neutral. And i am no one to say nething... im the biggest manmukh of all.

Yes it hurts. 1984, pre-1984 and post-1984... the attocities Sikhs and others have undergone through the recent times never will be forgotten and we have to seek justice if they expect us to forgive however how can we forgive if they dont ask for it? stuff is still happening today. Tell me jio, wudnt we have had a lot more impact if ALL had sat down that day to do Chaupai Sahib Jee de paath? The sad fact of the matter is, people wud rather indulge in spitting and swearing, than doing paath and no one can use the excuse "they didnt know at the back that they were doing paath at the front" because thatsa load of bull jio. They knew and they still done it.

There is a just reason for posting on this forum - its to gain an opinion and some support so next year.. i wont be alone when it comes to asking people not to swear ESPECIALLY at the front where the panjj are doing simran and also not to burn flags ESPECIALLY whilst paath is going on.

But thanks ak-47, was waiting for your input.

VJKK VJKF

[AK-47]

I agree, in fact you were there so you will know the people who were running around getting people to do the path, and getting the microphones etc ready for the path and in fact getting people to sit down. And yet some may still happily spit on the image of gundhi! Simple as, not going to argue with you, yes its not a very nice action, and your right we could continue the argument, so lets not.

It would have been brill if everyone had sat down, but they didnt, and the guys that cont with their nareh and flag stuff while the path was happening were wrong and were told so after. If they wanted to do that, they should have waited till after the path had finished, as many people were turning around to see what was happening, which was unfortunate, but there were still plenty of sangat singing gurbani at the top of their voices! To repeat the point, whilst the whole sangat was meant to have been chapaui shaib together, there should have nothing else happening. Before and after groups of people will shout their slogans and sing as they feel right in their own little groups. But something which we do together as a whole and complete unit should be done as just that, as a complete unit.

I do not agree with swearing, although i understand why people do it, it is still ultimately wrong. Be that in battle or elsewhere.

But, has Guru Ji used the word dog in gurbani? Has he referred to tyrants and wrong doers as dogs? In both cases he has. You are also correct to say that guru ji has told us not to swear, yet we we sing these shabads are we not swearing?

In this manner are we to assume that guru ji is contradicting himself? No, guru ji cannot contradict himself, if we act like dogs, we deserve to be called dogs, if we act like pigs we deserve to be called pigs. Gurbani is not contradictory, it cannot be contradictory, but Guru ji is very harsh when dealing with such wrong doers. It is like an elder saying to a child, you are like a dog, i.e. your actions are like a dog, or you are worse than a dog. He is not neccesarily swearing at the child, but drawning his attention to his actions, by making him see that his actions are sub-human. Not those worthy of a human being with a brain and a concience. Saying that gundhi and her actions were dog like, if anything is short of the mark, her actions were alike those of demons and butchers. Much like those of babar.

I believe that particlaur chant is out of date since as u mention she is already dead, but i guess people still wish to use it, for reasons beyond me (perhaps replace gundhi's name with the names of people still alive i.e. Brar, KP GIll, etc and get that to rhyme?), however i do not have a problem with anyone referring to gundhi as a dog. As her actions would classify her as one. I say this using guru ji's gurbani as a guide (again please refer to the shabads i mentioned above, if i have taken the wrong understanding of them, then please correct me)

Beyond these points i feel as i am sure nama and others also do that next year we should ALL observe the chapaui sahib da path, and if we see people chanting things which may be sen as offensive to some we at least make sure they are not drowning the singing of simran, there is plenty of space for everyone to express themselves. Thats just common sense approach which we can all easily adopt.

Again thanks guys, it does so much to see so many people care. Thanks everyone, at least the shaheed singhs and singhnian can see that we still try, no matter how lame or inadequate we may be, we all do our best. I hope we can make them proud.

[Nama Singh]

Yep. Agreed and again have to stress - THESE RALLYS ARE IMPORTANT and next rally (one in October) we need MORE turnout! Every Gurdwara n that should try and get ... at least 2 more coaches full!

I think people do get mistaken when people see others walking around n that doing paath - like a "oh if he can, then i can". I think its xcusable for the sevadars who sort out the equipment, or are lookin after security, or who are archiving, documenting, filming, n wot not.

[giani]

"RAJ KAREGA... KHALSA!"

"PANTH KEE... JEET!"

"WHAT DO WE WANT... KHALISTAN!"

"WHEN DO WE WANT IT...? NOW!"

some of these "naarae" are justified and good.

BUT what i was greatly disappointed about at Sunday June 12th 2005 rally was the fact there was a "INDIRA KUTHEE... MAARO JUTHI" slur. And it was at the front... where the Panj Pyaare were walking... those Panj Pyaare who were doing "Satnam Vaheguroo" simran whilst walking. DIRECTLY behind them, u had these guys swearing and cursing.

I found this offensive. Is it just for us to call Indira Gandhi (however bad she was) a "kuthee" and other really offensive stuff? Is this the words of a True Gursikh? Would Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jee Maharaj approve of such language?

Another thing, i was not pleased about was spitting. Again ... would Guru Jee have approved of his Sikhs... his GurSikhs to do such acts like spitting on a flag? A BURNT flag? And a doll of Indira Gandhi being burnt - reminds me of witchcraft that does. Voodoo-ism.

Yes, we are hurt by the attrocities of 1984... pre 1984 and post 1984 but what good is spitting and slandering in such stupid ways gonna help? Do we really wanna raise such awareness with the media that we have to bring ourselves down to get the attention of the media?

And whilst on the topic of the flag... its amazing. The people near the front all sat down and started doing Chaupee Sahib Jee de paath and the ones at the back decided it wud be a perfect chance to start burning the flag and spit and shout out offensive slogans and slurs... whilst the paath was going on... wouldnt it have been WICKED if EVERYONE had decided to sit down and join in? Would that not have had a greater impact.

Not dissing the rally. I go every year but these things... i may be wrong, but they aint justified in my opinion. Ure thoughts are welcome...

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i was the 1 who was doing the chaupai sahib on the speaker, I felt disgusted that someon e would burn the flag whilst resiting the path.they could have done it after. Everyone was in a peaceful stage of mind at that point.