Sant Samaj, Taksal Reject Calendar

[desilad]

Vaheguru Ji Ka khalsa

Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh

My 2 cents on the nanakshai claendar.

it is good that sikhs are saying that there should be a calendar of their own. But does sikhism not believe in that everyday should be treated as the same. Is it not going against the basic prinicpal of sikhism to go with a calendar which gives hardly any justification of sikhism to the new generation.

Ok lets take a practical example: How many people know their Birthday in Roman calendar - almost all of us. And how many know it in the Nanakshai calendar. Well I dont.

Another example: When you do your bookings for holidays/events etc. or run your day to day life. Do you say that I am going to take these holidays according to the Roman or the Bikrami/Nanakshai Calendar.

Sikhism is practicailty. This is what our Gurus told us Get out of the illussions and believe in practicaility.

So why go ahead with all this claendar issues. How come Xmas is celebrated at the same time every year, even with Roman Calendar it should change. But does it make any diff as long as you celebrate/remeber the event.

Does gurudwara's in the west not celebrate the gurpurab's primarily on the weekends. Rather than on the day

Comments pl.

Fateh.........

[Niranjana]

Sat Sri Akal:

That Reet of considering your husband as God is what the Manu Simriti states...it is not in line with what Gurbani states.  Again, the Asa Di Vaar is sung in Gurudwaras on a daily basis...perhaps these Gurmukhs could explain why Guru Sahib was willing to give women an equal status but somehow, they think otherwise.

121876[/snapback]

This is exactly my point MS Bhaji and I'm glad you can see this - it seems that it was conveniently being ignored on the Tapoban forum when Singh brought it up there. Let's hope we can understand the Taksal stance on this matter on this forum.

[Taksali Singh]

if we use the bikarmi calender.... the date of gurpurbs etc will eventully be [pushed like months months later then what they are now....

Taksali singh if bibia cannot be in panj because a maryada has been upholded for so long.... then why are bibia givin amrit if they cant be in panj pyarai and distribute it.... 5 singhs were the first and only people who took amrit first.... then it should only be singhs who take amrit... it that what you are trying to say???

121888[/snapback]

WJKKWJKP!

R Singh,

In my post have i stated Bibiaan CANNOT be blessed with Amrit?? NO! You are taking things WAY out of context. After Amrit was prepared in 1699 it was given to the 5 SINGHS whom then gave it to Guroo Maahaaraaj. After this Guroo Saahib told the sangat what had happened and then asked if there were others who wanted to step onto the path of Gursikhee...men, WOMEN and Children all came forward at this point!

Like I said in my earlier post, lets learn to be humble and accept Guroo Saahibs Maryaadaa rather than think of ways to twist and change history!

WJKKWJKP!

[S.S.F]

Sat Sri Akal:

That Reet of considering your husband as God is what the Manu Simriti states...it is not in line with what Gurbani states.  Again, the Asa Di Vaar is sung in Gurudwaras on a daily basis...perhaps these Gurmukhs could explain why Guru Sahib was willing to give women an equal status but somehow, they think otherwise.

121876[/snapback]

vaheguroo jee ka khalsa vaheguroo jee ke fateh

I wanna no the answer 2 this can sum1 with more knowlege tell me pleez

but the rest taksai Singh has xplained wiked

Bhul Chuk Maaf

vaheguroo jee ka khalsa vaheguroo jee ke fateh

[Niranjana]

I can’t see how Taksali Singh has explained anything “wicked”.

How are the historical course of events (i.e. 5 men getting up) equated to ‘maryada’ – this is but mindless ritualistic observance. The whole idea of Maryada is to remind (yaad) us of death (mar), i.e. be in bhao of/linked to Maharaj – how does this do anything of the sort?

By your logic, Jas, presumably the following is also maryada:

In 1699, Guru Sahib pitched a tent and summoned everyone to Anandpur Sahib – why then do we permit Amrit Sanchars inside buildings, surely we should also maintain this as maryada? Should we not all travel to Anandpur Sahib for our Amrit Sanchar? You state that women and children went afterwards, please give me a reference for this? There is none – in fact during Guru Sahib’s time we find no reference for any Women being Amritdhari or named “Kaur” by virtue of this – which is why some ‘lineages’ have concluded that women shouldn’t be given Amrit? Much like you conclude that they should participate in the Amrit ceremony.

Also, in 1699, the Punj Pyare came from different castes, however not all castes were present in the Punj – for instance there were no Bhatra Sikhs or Jat Sikhs (although this has been cleverly adjusted over time such that one thesedays finds the word JAT always capitalized when describing the castes of the original Punj), in any event does this mean we should ensure today that Punj must also be of the same corresponding castes? That an Amritdhari of Bhatra, Lohar or Achoot Jaat cannot be part of the Punj???

By your logic, perhaps this is what we should do and call it “Gurmaryada”.

Please answer the point concerning Pati Parmeasur – why does the Damdami Taksal on their official website MIS-translate the // of Bhai Gurdas Jee to introduce this Bipar concept?

[jagjit_waheguru]

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, I have to take issue with veer jaskeerath Singh or taksali singhs post. Veer ji, you are trying to make an assumption that Taksal maryada is actually Guru jis, or a God given marydada. Clearly in this case of bibian doing seva it is not.

The maryada of Taksal has many positive things in it, but it is wrong to stop bibian from doing seva. Gurbani is very clear on this matter. Every human has a soul and a body. The soul is important, and the body is just the vessel. The sex of the soul is just the vessel, i.e. male and female. Gurbani clearly states the soul of evry humna is female, and God is the male.

Therefore gender discrimination has no place in sikhi. The Amrit sanchaar is by no means any re-inactment, and it is silly to say it is. Otherwise who does the seva that Mata Sahib Kaur did?

The Amrit sanchaar is a spiritual awakening event in which the 5 most spiritual beings are choosen, whether male or female.

Veer Naranjana is also correct in stating Gurmat does not believe in the concept of "patti Parmeshwar". This is a hindu concept, where the husband is seen as God. Gurmat believes in the shabad of lavaan which states two bodies and one soul.

below is a article I wrote recently covering what is happening in India. However it is slightly of the subject, but is important.

POSITIVE DICRIMINATION OF WOMEN NOT THE WAY FORWARD

Waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, currently the Guru Khalsa Panth is entering a discussion on whether Sikh women can do Seva in many key areas of Sikhism. Personally I have always been of the opinion that Sikhism has nothing against Sikh Amritdhari bibian doing Seva in Panj Pyares, keertan in Darbar Sahib, or any other seva in Sikhism. Many times in debates, I have argued against those who wish to suppress the talent of Sikh bibian, and just see them as mothers, cooks, and people who should be seen and not heard. We have so many Great examples of Gurmat in the form of Sikh bibian in our history, from Bebe Nanaki ji, Mata Khivi ji, Bibi Bhani ji, Mata Bhag Kaur ji to Mata Sahib Kaur ji. In fact, the first ever Amritdhari Sikh, who took Amrit via Charan Pahul was Bebe Nanaki ji, and the first leader of the Sikh Nation after our beloved Guru Sahibaan was also a bibi in the form of Mata Sahib Kaur ji.

Gurmat philosophy is very clear that we are all females. Gurbani talks to our souls, not the vessels that are our bodies. Gurbani calls us females and Akaal Purkh is the soul bride (or male). So if Gurbani is so clear on this, why so many Sikhs are so confused about it, is really quite confusing!! I personally never knew why people were so adamant about holding back the potential of 50% of the Sikh Nation.

When Bibi Mejinderpal Kaur launched the campaign which brought to notice the discrimination against Sikh women doing seva in Darbar Sahib, even I was a bit shocked how vehemently some sections of the Panth appose women. I believe the SGPC passed a resolution decades ago, allowing bibian to do Seva in every aspect of Sikhism. When I first met Bibi Amarjit Kaur (wife of Bhai Fauja Singh ji), she mentioned an incident to me. During the early nineties I believe, when Proffesor Manjit Singh was Jathedar of the Akal Thakht Sahib. He allowed Sikh bibian to do sewa of washing Siri Darbar Sahib, which is done every night with milk. It caused an uproar among some sections. Such was the uproar that no bibian would come forward and do seva. So Bibi Amarjit Kaur and Bibi Shanti Kaur from 3HO did the Seva. Bibi ji told me in the following days, it was other Sikh women who were protesting against her doing that Seva, even more vehemently than males were.

I have never been much of a Bibi Jagir Kaur fan, mainly for her close association with Badal, who`s personal ambitions have damaged generations of Sikhs and their standing. However Bibi Jagir Kaur has taken a bold step to introduce Sikh bibian to do keertan at Siri Darbar Sahib. Further we also hear, she has stated that bibian should be actively doing Seva in the Panj Pyares. Whether this is true or not only time will tell, I have realised Punjabi Press are more rumour driven than fact driven.

Naturally there is opposition, and most positive steps in Sikhi have always had. But now is also a time for reflection, because without it more problems can be created than are solved. Reflection needs to be on two matters and I will discuss both in detail. Firstly, what level of Rehit should bibian doing seva have? Secondly is positive discrimination valid in Sikhi?

Bibian doing keertan in Siri Darbaar Sahib is a most welcome move. However the level of knowledge to do keertan in Darbaar Sahib needs to be increased. It has been announced that these Bibian would be trained. But those who already do keertan may also need to look at more training. More knowledge of Raags, less mistakes in Shabads, plus more regular use of string instruments make be the direction we should pursue. Most Sikhs would agree that we all should always strive to be better at any Seva we do, so a realisation that the male sevadaars are not perfect may be important, when they start judging and criticising women sevadaars.

I personally think before bibian keertanis start doing Seva, the Panth needs to have an honest debate on Keski. Some accept Keski as a kakkaar. Others accept Kesh. This is a ongoing discussion on many discussion boards. However I have personally found that those who are adamant with Kesh, still wish young bibian to wear Dastaars, and do wish to promote Dastaars for bibian. All main jathebandies, such as AKJ, Taksal, Nihangs, are now in their youth actively promoting dastaars for bibian. In fact, nowadays, it is even rare for the need to promote it as most young Sikh women are proud to be Sikhs, and wish to make a statement with a Dastaar.

According to the Sikh Rehit Maryada, a bibi is Amritdhari whether she wears a Dastaar or not. When we look in practice many elderly sikh bibian wear earrings, necklaces, make up, some even die hair, and are still considered Amritdhari as long as they have a chunni and a kirpan. What is level of Rehit required for bibian to do seva of Keertan in Siri Darbaar sahib? We have not been informed. I believe that all groups that wish to see all Gursikhs promoting the Roop of our Guru Sahibaan, as they wished when Sahib Siri Guru Gobind Singh ji stated ”Khalsa Mera Roop Hai Khass”. They now need to start lobbying the SGPC and the Thakhts to state wearing a Dastaar should a minimum level of Rehit to do keertan Seva in Siri Darbaar Sahib.

The second issue is based around bibian doing seva in the Panj Pyares. The process of choosing the Panj Pyares is based on selection based on Jeevan and Rehit. It is a process called “Shood Shudaaie” and is very misunderstood, even by mainstream jathebandies, who sometimes pick Singhs because of their build or prominence rather than Jeevan and Rehit. The Panj Payes should always been the five most Jeevan wale Gursikhs in that sangat, regardless of any discrimination such as gender discrimination. I was quite shocked to hear the call in Punjab to have Amrit sanchaars in villages and have two of the Panj Pyares as women. This is completely absurd, and a form of positive discrimination. The selection of the Panj Payes should never be made on basis of making point on any issue. The Panj Pyares have a very Scared and important seva, and should always only be blessed to the most Jeevan wale Gursikhs, whether they are all males, some female, or even all female. It should never be categorised like some ritual which needs to be enacted. They have a huge Spiritual role in creating the next generation of Gursikhs, and their spirituality should never be compromised by politics. The Seva should always be given only to the five most worthy Souls in terms of their Jeevan and devotion to Guru.

Positive discrimination policies often do more damage than good, as they often lead to more resentment. Nobody needs to prove a point, what we need is Sikhi to be followed in a logical manner, free from discrimination, whether positive or negative. As Gurmat philosophy perfects speaks to our Souls calling us all female, and calling Akaal Purkh the Soul bride or male. Similarly we should only recognise the Soul or Jeevan, and Seva should only be blessed to the most worthy Souls.

Waheguru ji kekhalsa,waheguru ji ke fateh

[mann_kaum_layee_qurbaan]

i also think bibi jageero has taken a bold step. She has shown that sikhi is for women doing sewa at darbar sahib and that sikhi is against sikh women marrying out of their caste(that's why she got her daughter killed). She has definitely shown the world what we are about. nd you may think I'm trying to be funny but I am dead serious.

Our panthic leaders, jathebandis are showing the world that hypocrsiy knows no race, religion or creed, it is a human downfall.

PS- i'm in that boat of hypocrites as well.

[`KuMi´]

Every one Did guru jee make sgpc or taksal??

Huhh?? Forr sooo

Den der ya go Jus go wid wa taksal ses or do wat eva u want no1 can force u, at da end u best hope u dun a lotta naam jaap or u deadd

[Guest A Singh.]

Preventing women doing Seva at Darbar Sahib is absolutely absurd. Women may well have been marginalised over the centuries since Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj passed away; this marginalisation by no means can be passed off as "Maryada". "Maryada" and "status quo" are two very seperate things.

At a time where gender ratios are widening in Panjab, and Bibian in the west face increasing difficulty with keeping the Rehat of Kesh and Dastar, we should all be making the effort to promote women's rights and encouraging our sisters to be proud of their heritage and Gursikhi, which is as much theirs as it is ours.

Marginalising women by preventing them doing Keertan or Seva will do quite the opposite to this; rather than jumping on the bandwagon of "this is Maryada" we should realise Sikhi is based on common sense; continuing to promote a male-dominated society within the Panth is extremely unhealthy.

To Veer "Kumi" Jee, historical evidence states Guru Ji made NEITHER the Taksal nor the SGPC. He made the Khalsa Panth, which consists of both men and women. He also gave both men and women something called "common sense".

[SSM]

isnt Taksal by Guru Ji

Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh