Depressed Or Cant Concentrate?

[randip singh]

Something for you to read:

Misconceptions About Eating Meat - Sri Guru Granth Sahib Quotes

by Sandeep Singh Brar 

Meat classifed with good foods such as bread, not bad foods such as wine

"The body is the bottle, self-conceit is the wine, and desire is the company of drinking companions. The glass of the mind’s longing is filled to overflowing with falsehood; the Messenger of Death is the bartender. Drinking in this wine, O Nanak, one takes on countless vices and corruption. So make spiritual wisdom your molasses, and the Praise of God your bread; let the Fear of God be the dish of meat. O Nanak, this is the true food; let the True Name be your only Support." (Baba Mardana, Bihagara, pg. 553)

In the society of the times meat was avoided by Hindus and certain kinds by the Muslims. The Gurus tried to explain to these people that it was not eating meat was not the real sin but:

Taking anothers right is the real thing to be avoided

"Nanak, another's right is swine for him (the Musalman) and cow for him (the Hindu)." (Guru Nanak, pg. 141)

Falsehood is the real thing to avoid

"By uttering falsehood, man eats meat, Yet, he goes to admonish others. Such appears to be the leader, O' Nanak! who himself is beguiled and beguiles his comrades." (Guru Nanak, Slok, pg. 140)

"Falsehood is my dagger and to eat by defrauding is meat." (Guru Nanak, Sri Rag, pg. 24)

Evil intellect, heartlesness, slander and wrath are the real things to avoid

“Evil-intellect is the she drummer, heartlessness is the butcheress, other’s slander in the heart is a sweepress and deceitful wrath is a pariah-woman” (Guru Nanak, Slok, pg. 91)

Avarice, falsehood, cheatings and slander are the real things to avoid

“Avarice is a dog., falsehood the sweeper and cheating the eating of meat. Slandering others solely amounts to puting other’s filth in ones own mouth and fire of wrath is a pariah.” (Guru Nanak, Sri Rag, pg.15)

The Gurus clearly stated what are sins throughout the Guru Granth Sahib, nowhere is eating meat mentioned as being one of these sins.

"Taking halter, men go out at night to strangle others, but the Lord knows all, O mortal. Concealed in places they look at other women. They break into places, difficult to acceess and enjoy wine deeming it sweet. Over their respective misdeeds, they shall themselves afterwards regret. Azrail, the courier of death shall crush them like the mill full of sesame." (Guru Arjan Dev, Pauri, pg. 315)

"Renounce sexual pleasures, wrath, falsehood and calumny, forsake worldly valuables and dispel pride. Put aside the lust for belles and leave worldly love. Then shalt thou obtain the bright Lord amidst the dark world. Eschew self-adoration, egotism and affection for thy sons and wife. Shed thirst and desire for wealth and embrace love for the omnipresent Lord. Nanak, he, in whose mind the True One abides, through the True Gurbani gets absorbed in God's Name." (Guru Ram Das, pg. 141)

"Abandon lust, wrath, avarice and worldly love. Thus be rid of both birth and death. Distress and darkness shall depart from thy home, when, within thee, the Guru implants wisdom and lights the Divine lamp. He, who serves the Lord crosses the sea of life. Through the Guru, O slave Nanak, the entire world is saved." (Guru Arjan Dev, Gauri, pg. 241)

"In the fire of desire, avarice, arrogance and excessive egotism the man is burning. He repeatedly goes, comes and loses his honour. His life he wastes away in vain. Rare is the person who understands Gurbani." ( Guru Amar Das, Majh, pg 120)

The superstitions of the impurity of certain foods such as meat exposed and the real emphasis revealed:

"If the principle of impurity be admitted, then there is impurity everywhere.

In cow-dung and wood there are worms.

As many as are the grains of corn, none is without life.

In the first place there is life in water, by which, all are made green.

How can impurity be warded off? It falls on our own kitchen.

Nanak, impurity is not removed like this. It is washed away by Divine Knowledge.

The mind's impurity is avarice and the tongue's impurity falsehood.

The impurity of the eyes is to behold another's woman, another's wealth and beauty.

The impurity of the ears is to hear the slander of others with ears,

Nanak, mortal's soul goes bout to the city of death.

All impurity consists in doubt and attachment to duality.

Birth and death are subject to Lord's command and through His will mortal comes and goes.

Eating and drinking are pure, for the Lord has given sustenance to all.

Nanak, the Gurmukh who know the Lord, to them impurity sticks not."

(Guru Nanak, Slok, pg. 472)

"What can be achieved by eating and what by dressing, so long as that True Lord abides not in the man's mind? What is fruit, what clarified butter and sweet molasses, what fine flour and what meat? What is rainment and what comfortable couch to enjoy sexual intercourse and revelments? Of what use is an army and of what the mace-bearers, servants and coming and dwelling in mansions? Nanak, without the True Name, the entire paraphernalia is perishable." (Guru Nanak, pg. 142)

"The True food is the Lord's love. So says the True Guru. With the True food I am appeased and with Truth I am delighted." (Guru Angad, Pauri, pg. 146)

"The world-hardened men, who eat poison by repeatedly telling lies, the Lord Himself has led astray. They know not the ultimate reality of departure, and increase the poison of lust and wrath." (Guru Amar Das, Pauri, pg. 145)

"Without the Name all, which man wears and eats is poison. By praising the True Name one merges in the True Master." (Guru Nanak, Pauri, pg.144)

"By reading and reciting men grow weary but they obtain not peace. By desire they are consumed, and they have no knowledge of it. Poison they purchase and for the love of poison they are thirsty. By telling lies they eat poison." (Guru Amrar Das, Majh, pg. 120)

"I have tasted and seen all other relishes but to my mind the God's dainty is the sweetest of all." (Guru Arjan Dev, Majh, pg.100)

"Do thou only that by which filth may not attach to thee, and this soul of thine may remain awake in singing God's praises.

Meditate on the One Lord, and think not duality.

In the guild of saints repeat only the Name.

Rituals, duty, religious rites, fasting and worship are all covered recognising none else in sans the Supreme Lord.

Of him the toil is approved, whose affection is with his own Master.

Infinitely invaluable is that vegetarian (Vishnavite), says Nanak; who renounced sins."

(Guru Arjan Dev, Gauri, pg. 199)

"Let somone sing, someone hear, someone reflect on, someone preach the Name of God and somone fix it in his mind, he shall forthwith be saved. His sins shall be effaced, he shall become pure and his filth of many births shall be washed off. In this world and the next world, his countenance shall be bright, and mammon shall not affect him. He is the man of wisdom, he the vegetarian, he the divine and the man of wealth; He is the hero, and he is of high family, who has meditated on the Fortunate Lord." (Guru Arjan Dev, Pauri, pg. 300)

"Self-conceit and wealth are all poison. Attached therewith, man ever suffers loss in this world. By pondering on the Name, the Guru-ward earns the profit of God's wealth. By placing God and God's elixir in the mind, the poison of the filth of ego is removed." (Guru Ram Das, Slok, pg. 300)

"The attachment of all the visible objects is all impurity. Due to this, the mortal dies and is reborn again and again. Impurity is in fire, air and water. Within all the food, which we eat, there is pollution. Defilement is in mans actions as he performs not God's worship." (Guru Amar Das, Gauri Guareri, pg. 229)

"Without the Name all, which man wears and eats is poison. By praising the True Name one merges in the True Master." (Guru Nanak, Pauri, pg.144)

"The True food is the Lord's love. So says the True Guru. With the True food I am appeased and with Truth I am delighted." (Guru Angad, Pauri, pg. 146)

The vegetable feels pain just as the animal does, there is no difference.

"See, that the sugarcane is sheared. After cleansing and chopping off its plumes, its feet are bound to form it into bundles. Placing it in between the wooden rollers of the press, they crush and award it punishment. Extracting the juice, they put it in the cauldron and it groans as it burns. Even the empty crushed cane is collected and is burnt in the fire. Nanak, how the sweet-leaved sugar-cane is treated, come and see, O’ people!" (Guru Nanak, Slok, pg. 143)

Glorious God is compared not only to the fish and the net but also to a fisherman - a killer of fish for food.

"He Himself is the fisherman and the fish and Himself the water and the net. He Himself is the metal ball of the net and Himself the bait within."(Guru Nanak, Sri Rag, pg. 23)

There is no difference between plants and animals. God in his perfection has designed all living things to eat what they eat. We eat meat as part of the natural order of all living things designed by God. Man has been eating meat and vegetables for millions of years, God has not designed meat eating human beings in error. The only things banned for Sikhs are all unnatural manipulations of natural foods - tobacco, drugs, alcohol all unnatural manipulations of vegetation, and all banned for Sikhs.

"When Thou art true, then all, that flows from Thee is true. Absolutely nothing is false. Talking, seeing, uttering, living, walking and perishing are from Thee, O' Lord! Nanak, the True Lord Himself creates by His order, and in His order He keeps all the beings." (Guru Nanak, Slok, pg. 145)

"The tigers, hawks, kites and falcons, them the Lord causes to eat grass. Who eats grass, them He causes to eat meat. This way of life He can set agoing." (Guru Nanak, Slok, pg. 144)

"God Himself has made the earth and Himself the sky. He of Himself created the beings therein, and of Himself puts morsels (food) in their mouths. All by Himself He pervades everywhere and Himself is the treasure of excellences. Remember Thou God's Name, O slave Nanak, and He shall efface all thine sins." (Guru Ram Das, Slok, pg. 302)

"They walk in a single file, brush the ground before they lay their foot on it all this they do to avoid killing life, but it is God who giveth and taketh life." (Guru Gobind Singh, 33 Swayyas, Dasam Granth)

"There is but one breath, all are identical in matter and among all the entire light is the same. The One Light is contained among all the different and diverse things." (Guru Ram Das, Majh, pg. 96)

"Many millions of beings, the Lord has made of good many descriptions. From the Lord they emanated and into the Lord shall they be absorbed." (Guru Arjan Dev, Ashtpadi, pg. 276)

"In forests, grass blades and mountains, the Supreme Lord is contained. As is His will so are His creatures acts. The Lord is in wind, water and fire. He is permeating the four quarters and ten directions. There is no place without Him." (Guru Arjan Dev, Ashtpadi, pg. 294)

Amongst all the forms, the Lord Himself is contained.

Through all the eyes, He Himself is the beholder.

The whole creation is His Body.

His praises He Himself hears.

He has made coming and going as a play.

He has rendered mammon subservient to Him.

Though amidst everything He remains unattached.

Whatever is to be said, He Himself says.

By His order man comes and by His order he goes.

Nanak, when it pleases Him, He blends the mortal with Himself, than.

Whatever comes from Him, that cannot be bad.

.....All that He does must be accepted. Through Guru's grace, Nanak has come to know this.

(Guru Arjan Dev, Ashtpadi, pg. 294)

"I have heard the One Lord to be the treasure of imperishable peace. God is said to be fully filling the ocean, dry land, sky and every heart. He looks equally adorned amongst all the high and low, an ant and an elephant. The friends, comrades, sons and relatives are all created by Him." (Guru Arjan Dev, Slok, pg. 319)

"His plays, He Himself enacts. Coming and going, visible and invisible and the entire world, He has made obedient to Himself." (Guru Arjan Dev, Ashtpadi, pg. 281)

Meat prepared by the Muslim ritual slaughter is banned for Sikhs

"Yet holding the knife, the world they butcher. Wearing blue the rulers approval they seek; With money derived from mlechhas the Puranas they worship. Goats slaughtered over the unapproved Muslims texts they eat." (Guru Nanak, Raga Asa, pg. 472)

[SSM]

oh gosh and the debate has started.....again!

lol im veggie but if someone thinks its ok to eat meat then heck no one is stopping him but most amritdharis on this forum have been told they cant eat meat so according to them sikhi says u cant eat meat.

They are not toldby Japmans or naam Jap and co. but by Panj Pyare.

er...btw just out of interest Randip veerji are you amritdhari?

gosh shall we talk abt oil.... only because i think this topic is breaking some rules(??)....nahi?

[Simran-Karo-Jee]

Naaam japo .. and wont be depressed!!!

dhan waheguru

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Hear Hear!!

[WGJKKWGJKF]

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Phul chuk maaf kardi sangat jio for bringing up meat issue i jus wanna clear out the misunderstandings that ppl have.

IM NOT GONNA ARGUE NO OVER THIS ISSUE, after reading this it shud be clear that Gurbani does not permit meat. However if you still believe were allowed to eat meat, ill pray for you so that you can see the truth.

The article i posted earlier was only to show you that the only quote from Siri Guru Granth Sahib that meat-eaters use to eat meat, is actually against meat, but they havent realised because they dont have the knowledge about what the quote is actually saying, which is saying, by only avioding meat u wont gain spiritual bliss IF you havent got any spiritual wisdom. As the Vaishnav Pundit thought that he cud acheive spiritual bliss by ONLY avoiding meat.

GURBANI IS CLEAR NO MEAT IS PERMITTED as im gonna mention below.

That quote you gave brother:

ka-un maas ka-un saag kahaavai kis meh paap samaanay.

What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin?

The meaning behind these two extracts is that to have continuous arguments, with people who are mistaken about the religious stance on meat, is a foolish act. These people cannot even differentiate between meat and vegetables, and whether the eating of one of these is a sinful act. There isn’t even a hint that meat is acceptable, so it amazes me how some people can find anything to support their evil acts. This verse states that by uttering the vocabulary of meat and by looking at meat, one isn’t punished, one doesn’t become a saint by constantly denouncing meat and that one doesn’t become a sinner if one doesn’t “hate” meat. It can also be concluded from these extracts that the killing of animals is an evil act and is a great sin. Since purchase and eating of vegetables through money which was earned by committing sins is also a sin like eating flesh. The distinction between “What is meat and what is green vegetables” can only be determined by those who have the Gurmat knowledge and the Gurmat spirituality to do so. To just argue over meat without these qualities is the act of a fool. But instruction to eat meat cannot be gained from these two extracts under any condition.

'Don't you think you are acting like the Vaishnav Brahmin?'

No i never said by only avoiding meat i will achieve spiritual bliss did i?

Ive realised through the word of God i need spiritual wisdom too.

Gurbani is clear that no meat is permitted:

"kabeer, bhaang maachulee suraapaan, jo jo praanee khai, teerath barat naym keeayai sabhai rasaatal jai” here Kabeer jee clearly states eating meat, fish and liqour is wrong and religion is not possible while eating these.

Je ratu lagai kaprhaia jaamaa hoi pleet. Jo ratu pevahi maansaa tin kiyu nirmal cheet: Clothes stained with blood become impure. Similarly, O man, if you consume blood (and flesh, etc.) of other beings, then how you cannot have pure consciousness! (sggs 140).

Duniyaa murdaar khurdanee gaaphal havaayi. Gaibaan haivaan haraam kustanee murdaar bakhoraayi: The world eats dead carcasses, living by neglect and greed. Like a goblin, or a beast, they kill and eat the forbidden carcasses of meat (sggs 723).

Kabeer khoob khaanaa kheecharee jaa mahi amrit lon. Heraa rotee kaarne galaa ktaavai kayun: Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice (Khicharhee) flavored with salt is excellent. Who would cut his throat (in his next life) to have meat of a killed animal with his bread? (sggs 1374).

Jayu sabh mahi ek Khudaai kahat hau tau kiyon murgee maarai. Mullaan kahahu niaau Khudaaee. Tere mann kaa bharam na jaaee: You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens? O Mullah, tell me: is this God’s Justice? The doubts of your mind have not been dispelled (sggs 1350).

And yes in the article youve mentioned about halal meat is forbidded for Sikhs.

This is true as all meat is forbidded for Sikhs, and the Gurus told us that halal meat is forbidded for us so that its clear even though 'its considered holy' or 'been accepted by God coz of the recitation of the kalima' in the eyes of the muslims. Meat is Meat.

And we dont eat halal for the same reason for not eating normal meat.

Please give me quotes from Gurbani that says we are permitted to eat meat- coz there is no quote as such!

Heres stories about the misconceptions us Sikhs have about meat and this should clear them up:

http://www.tapoban.org/jhatka.htm

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

[randip singh]

oh gosh and the debate has started.....again!

lol im veggie but if someone thinks its ok to eat meat then heck no one is stopping him but most amritdharis on this forum have been told they cant eat meat so according to them sikhi says u cant eat meat.

They are not toldby Japmans or naam Jap and co. but by Panj Pyare.

er...btw just out of interest Randip veerji are you amritdhari?

gosh shall we talk abt oil.... only because i think this topic is breaking some rules(??)....nahi?

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Whether I am an Amritdhari or not is irrelevant because my circle of Amritdhari friends about half eat meat and the others dont...........both respect each others views andd agree that Sikhism has nothing to do with dietary requirements, only that which is good for the mind and body.

THE Author above WGKWF...) clearly has a limited knowledge about Bani and sikh history and is a slave to Brahmanical dogma, hence his poor attempt above at explaining ibani . The Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is NOT an a-la-carte menu. It does NOT specify a diet

Here is what our top scholars say.

Misconceptions About Eating Meat - Comments of Sikh Scholars

by Sandeep Singh Brar 

Sikhs and Sikhism by I.J. Singh, Manohar, Delhi

Throughout Sikh history, there have been movements or subsects of Sikhism which have espoused vegetarianism. I think there is no basis for such dogma or practice in Sikhism. Certainly Sikhs do not think that a vegetarian's achievements in spirituality are easier or higher. It is surprising to see that vegetarianism is such an important facet of Hindu practice in light of the fact that animal sacrifice was a significant and much valued Hindu Vedic ritual for ages. Guru Nanak in his writings clearly rejected both sides of the arguments - on the virtues of vegetarianism or meat eating - as banal and so much nonsense, nor did he accept the idea that a cow was somehow more sacred than a horse or a chicken. He also refused to be drawn into a contention on the differences between flesh and greens, for instance. History tells us that to impart this message, Nanak cooked meat at an important Hindu festival in Kurukshetra. Having cooked it he certainly did not waste it, but probably served it to his followers and ate himself. History is quite clear that Guru Hargobind and Guru Gobind Singh were accomplished and avid hunters. The game was cooked and put to good use, to throw it away would have been an awful waste.

Guru Granth Sahib, An Analytical Study by Surindar Singh Kohli, Singh Bros. Amritsar

The ideas of devotion and service in Vaishnavism have been accepted by Adi Granth, but the insistence of Vaishnavas on vegetarian diet has been rejected.

A History of the Sikh People by Dr. Gopal Singh, World Sikh University Press, Delhi

Commenting on meat being served in the langar during the time of Guru Angad: However, it is strange that now-a-days in the Community-Kitchen attached to the Sikh temples, and called the Guru's Kitchen (or, Guru-ka-langar) meat-dishes are not served at all. May be, it is on account of its being, perhaps, expensive, or not easy to keep for long. Or, perhaps the Vaishnava tradition is too strong to be shaken off.

Philosophy of Sikhism by Gyani Sher Singh (Ph.D), Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee. Amritsar

As a true Vaisnavite Kabir remained a strict vegetarian. Kabir far from defying Brahmanical tradition as to the eating of meat, would not permit so much, as the plucking of a flower (G.G.S. pg 479), whereas Nanak deemed all such scruples to be superstitions, Kabir held the doctrine of Ahinsa or the non-destruction of life, which extended even to that of flowers. The Sikh Gurus, on the contrary, allowed and even encouraged, the use of animal flesh as food. Nanak has exposed this Ahinsa superstition in Asa Ki War (G.G.S. pg 472) and Malar Ke War (G.G.S. pg. 1288).

A Popular Dictionary of Sikhism, W.Owen Cole and Piara Singh Sambhi, England

The Gurus were loath to pronounce upon such matters as the eating of meat or ways of disposing of the dead because undue emphasis on them could detract from the main thrust of their message which had to do with spiritual liberation. However, Guru Nanak did reject by implication the practice of vegetarianism related to ideas of pollution when he said, 'All food is pure; for God has provided it for our sustenance' (AG 472). Many Sikhs are vegetarian and meat should never be served at langar. Those who do eat meat are unlikely to include beef in their diet, at least in India, because of their cultural proximity to Hindus.

Sikhism, A Complete Introduction by Dr. H.S. Singha and Satwant Kaur, Hemkunt Press, Delhi

In general Sikhism has adopted an ambivalent attitude towards meat eating as against vegetarianism. But if meat is to be taken at all, Guru Gobind Singh enjoined on the Khalsa Panth not to take kosher meat ie. Halal meat slaughtered and prepared for eating according to the Islamic practice. In fact it is one of the kurahits for every amritdhari Sikh. One who infringes it becomes patit (apostate).

Real Sikhism by Surinder Singh Kohli, Harman Publishing, New Delhi

A close study of the above-mentioned hymns of Guru Nanak Dev clarifies the Sikh standpoint regarding meat-eating. The Guru has not fallen into the controversy of eating or not eating animal food. He has ridiculed the religious priests for raising their voice in favour of vegetarianism. He called them hypocrites and totally blind to the realities of life. They are unwise and thoughtless persons, who do not go into the root of the matter. According to him, the water is the source of all life whether vegetable or animal. Guru Nanak Dev said. "None of the grain of corn is without life. In the first place, there is life in water, by which all are made green" (// Asa M.1, p. 472). Thus there is life in vegetation and life in all types of creatures.

Introduction to Sikhism by Dr. Gobind Singh Mansukhani, Hemkunt Press, Delhi

The Gurus neither advocate meat nor banned its use. They left it to the choice of the individual. There are passages against meat, in the Adi Granth. Guru Gobind Singh however prohibited for the Khalsa the use of Halal or Kutha meat prepared in the Muslim ritualistic way.

Introduction to Sikhism by G.S. Sidhu, Shromini Sikh Sangat, Toronto

There are no restrictions for the Sikhs regarding food, except that the Sikhs are forbidden to eat meat prepared as a ritual slaughter. The Sikhs are asked to abstain from intoxicants.

The Sikh Faith by Gurbakhsh Singh, Canadian Sikh Study and Teaching Society, Vancouver

According to the Maryada booklet 'Kutha', the meat prepared by the Muslim ritual, is prohibited for a Sikh. Regarding eating other meat, it is silent. From the prohibition of the Kutha meat, it is rightly presumed that non-Kutha meat is not prohibited for the Sikhs. Beef is prohibited to the Hindus and pork to the Muslims. Jews and Christians have their own taboos. They do not eat certain kinds of meat on certain days. Sikhs have no such instructions. If one thinks he needs to eat meat, it does not matter which meat it is, beef, poultry, fish, etc., or which day it is. One should, however, be careful not to eat any meat harmful for his health. Gurbani's instructions on this topic are very clear. "Only fools argue whether to eat meat or not. Who can define what is meat and what is not meat? Who knows where the sin lies, being a vegetarian or a non-vegetarian?" (1289) The Brahmanical thought that a religious person should be a vegetarian is of recent origin. Earlier, Brahmans had been eating beef and horse meat. In conclusion, it is wrong to say that any person who eats meat (of course Kutha, because of the Muslim rituals is prohibited) loses his membership of the Khalsa and becomes an apostate.

Scientific Interpretation of Gurbani, Paper by Dr. Devinder Singh Chahal

The above discussion leads us to the conclusion that the Sikh Gurus made people aware of the fact that it is very difficult to distinguish between a plant and an animal, therefore, it is difficult to distinguish between a vegetarian and a non-vegetarian diets and there is no sin of eating food originating from plants or animals.

Mini Encyclopaedia of Sikhism by H.S. Singha, Hemkunt Press, Delhi.

The practice of the Gurus is uncertain. Guru Nanak seems to have eaten venison or goat, depending upon different janamsakhi versions of a meal which he cooked at Kurukshetra which evoked the criticism of Brahmins. Guru Amardas ate only rice and lentils but this abstention cannot be regarded as evidence of vegetarianism, only of simple living. Guru Gobind Singh also permitted the eating of meat but he prescribed that it should be Jhatka meat and not Halal meat that is jagged in the Muslim fashion.

[randip singh]

WGJKWGJF

You said:

Jayu sabh mahi ek Khudaai kahat hau tau kiyon murgee maarai. Mullaan kahahu niaau Khudaaee. Tere mann kaa bharam na jaaee: You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens? O Mullah, tell me: is this God’s Justice? The doubts of your mind have not been dispelled (sggs 1350).

Look you don’t understand a word of Bani …..lets put you quotes into context again:

parbhaatee.

Prabhaatee:

bayd katayb kahhu mat jhoothay jhoothaa jo na bichaarai.

Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false.

ja-o sabh meh ayk khudaa-ay kahat ha-o ta-o ki-o murgee maarai. ||1||

You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens? ||1||

mulaaN kahhu ni-aa-o khudaa-ee.

O Mullah, tell me: is this God's Justice?

tayray man kaa bharam na jaa-ee. ||1|| rahaa-o.

The doubts of your mind have not been dispelled. ||1||Pause||

pakar jee-o aani-aa dayh binaasee maatee ka-o bismil kee-aa.

You seize a living creature, and then bring it home and kill its body; you have killed only the clay.

jot saroop anaahat laagee kaho halaal ki-aa kee-aa. ||2||

The light of the soul passes into another form. So tell me, what have you killed? ||2||

ki-aa ujoo paak kee-aa muhu Dho-i-aa ki-aa maseet sir laa-i-aa.

And what good are your purifications? Why do you bother to wash your face? And why do you bother to bow your head in the mosque?

ja-o dil meh kapat nivaaj gujaarahu ki-aa haj kaabai jaa-i-aa. ||3||

Your heart is full of hypocrisy; what good are your prayers or your pilgrimage to Mecca? ||3||

tooN naapaak paak nahee soojhi-aa tis kaa maram na jaani-aa.

You are impure; you do not understand the Pure Lord. You do not know His Mystery.

kahi kabeer bhisat tay chookaa dojak si-o man maani-aa. ||4||4||

Says Kabeer, you have missed out on paradise; your mind is set on hell. ||4||4||

Kabeer ji is NOT talking about meat but the hypocrisy of Mullahs. That is clearly stated above when put in context. You are deliberately misleading the forum.

You stated

kabeer, bhaang maachulee suraapaan, jo jo praanee khai, teerath barat naym keeayai sabhai rasaatal jai” here Kabeer jee clearly states eating meat, fish and liqour is wrong and religion is not possible while eating these.

Sorry mate, you are out of context again.:

mehlaa 5.

Fifth Mehl:

kabeer raam na chayti-o firi-aa laalach maahi.

Kabeer, the mortal does not remember the Lord; he wanders around, engrossed in greed.

paap karantaa mar ga-i-aa a-oDh punee khin maahi. ||221||

Committing sins, he dies, and his life ends in an instant. ||221||

kabeer kaa-i-aa kaachee kaarvee kayval kaachee Dhaat.

Kabeer, the body is like a clay vessel or a brittle metal pot.

saabat rakheh ta raam bhaj naahi ta binthee baat. ||222||

If you wish to keep it safe and sound, then vibrate and meditate on the Lord; otherwise, the thing shall break. ||222||

kabeer kayso kayso kookee-ai na so-ee-ai asaar.

Kabeer, chant the Name of the Beautifully-haired Lord; do not sleep unaware.

raat divas kay kooknay kabhoo kay sunai pukaar. ||223||

Chanting His Name night and day, the Lord will eventually hear your call. ||223||

kabeer kaa-i-aa kajlee ban bha-i-aa man kunchar ma-y mant.

Kabeer, the body is a banana forest, and the mind is an intoxicated elephant.

kabeer raam ratan mukh kothree paarakh aagai khol.

Kabeer, the Lord's Name is the jewel, and the mouth is the purse; open this purse to the Appraiser.

ko-ee aa-ay milaigo gaahkee laygo mahgay mol. ||225||

If a buyer can be found, it will go for a high price. ||225||

kabeer raam naam jaani-o nahee paali-o katak kutamb.

Kabeer, the mortal does not know the Lord's Name, but he has raised a very large family.

DhanDhay hee meh mar ga-i-o baahar bha-ee na bamb. ||226||

He dies in the midst of his worldly affairs, and then he is not heard in the external world. ||226||

kabeer aakhee kayray maatukay pal pal ga-ee bihaa-ay.

Kabeer, in the blink of an eye, moment by moment, life is passing by.

man janjaal na chhod-ee jam dee-aa damaamaa aa-ay. ||227||

The mortal does not give up his worldly entanglements; the Messenger of Death walks in and beats the drum. ||227||

kabeer tarvar roopee raam hai fal roopee bairaag.

Kabeer, the Lord is the tree, and disillusionment with the world is the fruit.

chhaa-i-aa roopee saaDh hai jin taji-aa baad bibaad. ||228||

The Holy man, who has abandoned useless arguments, is the shade of the tree. ||228||

kabeer aisaa beej bo-ay baarah maas falant.

Kabeer, plant the seeds of such a plant, which shall bear fruit throughout the twelve months,

seetal chhaa-i-aa gahir fal pankhee kayl karant. ||229||

with cooling shade and abundant fruit, upon which birds joyously play. ||229||

kabeer daataa tarvar da-yaa fal upkaaree jeevant.

Kabeer, the Great Giver is the tree, which blesses all with the fruit of compassion.

pankhee chalay disaavaree birkhaa sufal falant. ||230||

When the birds migrate to other lands, O Tree, you bear the fruits. ||230||

kabeer saaDhoo sang paraapatee likhi-aa ho-ay lilaat.

Kabeer, the mortal finds the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, if he has such destiny written upon his forehead.

mukat padaarath paa-ee-ai thaak na avghat ghaat. ||231||

He obtains the treasure of liberation, and the difficult road to the Lord is not blocked. ||231||

kabeer ayk gharhee aaDhee gharee aaDhee hooN tay aaDh.

Kabeer, whether is is for an hour, half an hour, or half of that,

bhagtan saytee gostay jo keenay so laabh. ||232||

whatever it is, it is worthwhile to speak with the Holy. ||232||

kabeer bhaaNg maachhulee suraa paan jo jo paraanee khaaNhi.

Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine –

tirath barat naym kee-ay tay sabhai rasaatal jaaNhi. ||233||

no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. ||233||

neechay lo-in kar raha-o lay saajan ghat maahi.

Kabeer, I keep my eyes lowered, and enshrine my Friend within my heart.

sabh ras khayla-o pee-a sa-o kisee lakhaava-o naahi. ||234||

I enjoy all pleasures with my Beloved, but I do not let anyone else know. ||234||

aath jaam cha-usath gharee tu-a nirkhat rahai jee-o.

Twenty-four hours a day, every hour, my soul continues to look to You, O Lord.

neechay lo-in ki-o kara-o sabh ghat daykh-a-u pee-o. ||235||

Why should I keep my eyes lowered? I see my Beloved in every heart. ||235||

sun sakhee pee-a meh jee-o basai jee-a meh basai ke pee-o.

Listen, O my companions: my soul dwells in my Beloved, and my Beloved dwells in my soul.

jee-o pee-o boojha-o nahee ghat meh jee-o ke pee-o. ||236||

I realize that there is no difference between my soul and my Beloved; I cannot tell whether my soul or my Beloved dwells in my heart. ||236||

kabeer baaman guroo hai jagat kaa bhagtan kaa gur naahi.

Kabeer, the Brahmin may be the guru of the world, but he is not the Guru of the devotees.

arajh urajh kai pach moo-aa chaara-o baydahu maahi. ||237||

He rots and dies in the perplexities of the four Vedas. ||237||

har hai khaaNd rayt meh bikhree haathee chunee na jaa-ay.

The Lord is like sugar, scattered in the sand; the elephant cannot pick it up.

kahi kabeer gur bhalee bujhaa-ee keetee ho-ay kai khaa-ay. ||238||

Says Kabeer, the Guru has given me this sublime understanding: become an ant, and feed on it. ||238||

kabeer ja-o tuhi saaDh piramm kee sees kaat kar go-ay.

Kabeer, if you desire to play the game of love with the Lord, then cut off your head, and make it into a ball.

khaylat khaylat haal kar jo kichh ho-ay ta ho-ay. ||239||

Lose yourself in the play of it, and then whatever will be, will be. ||239||

kabeer ja-o tuhi saaDh piramm kee paakay saytee khayl.

Kabeer, if you desire to play the game of love with the Lord, play it with someone with committment.

kaachee sarsa-uN payl kai naa khal bha-ee na tayl. ||240||

Pressing the unripe mustard seeds produces neither oil nor flour. ||240||

dhooNdhat doleh anDh gat ar cheenat naahee sant.

Searching, the mortal stumbles like a blind person, and does not recognize the Saint.

kahi naamaa ki-o paa-ee-ai bin bhagtahu bhagvant. ||241||

Says Naam Dayv, how can one obtain the Lord God, without His devotee? ||241||

har so heeraa chhaad kai karahi aan kee aas.

Forsaking the Diamond of the Lord, the mortals put their hopes in another.

tay nar dojak jaahigay sat bhaakhai ravidaas. ||242||

Those people shall go to hell; Ravi Daas speaks the Truth. ||242||

kabeer ja-o garihu karahi ta Dharam kar naahee ta kar bairaag.

Kabeer, if you live the householder's life, then practice righteousness; otherwise, you might as well retire from the world.

bairaagee banDhan karai taa ko bado abhaag. ||243||

If someone renounces the world, and then gets involved in worldly entanglements, he shall suffer terrible misfortune. ||243||

Notice Kabir Ji uses the word fish and not meat. Fish was a delicacy for the rich (as is still today in Punjab), and only the rich could afford it. Along with wine and marijuana, which were playthings for the rich.

Put into context the entire Tukh is talking about the rich who lead frivolous lives, and are bloated and drunk on their foods, and wine. This is not a statement about not eating meat so you are wrong again

You said:

Je ratu lagai kaprhaia jaamaa hoi pleet. Jo ratu pevahi maansaa tin kiyu nirmal cheet: Clothes stained with blood become impure. Similarly, O man, if you consume blood (and flesh, etc.) of other beings, then how you cannot have pure consciousness! (sggs 140).

here it is in context

salok mehlaa 1.

Shalok, First Mehl:

jay rat lagai kaprhai jaamaa ho-ay paleet.

If one's clothes are stained with blood, the garment becomes polluted.

jo rat peeveh maansaa tin ki-o nirmal cheet.

Those who suck the blood of human beings-how can their consciousness be pure?

naanak naa-o khudaa-ay kaa dil hachhai mukh layho.

O Nanak, chant the Name of God, with heart-felt devotion.

avar divaajay dunee kay jhoothay amal karayhu. ||1||

Everything else is just a pompous worldly show, and the practice of false deeds. ||1||

Now you are plainly lying. What Guru Nanak is talking about is the exploitation of the poor by the rich, and not food

You stated:

Duniyaa murdaar khurdanee gaaphal havaayi. Gaibaan haivaan haraam kustanee murdaar bakhoraayi: The world eats dead carcasses, living by neglect and greed. Like a goblin, or a beast, they kill and eat the forbidden carcasses of meat (sggs 723).

Let us put this into context:

tilang mehlaa 5 ghar 1

Tilang, Fifth Mehl, First House:

ik-oNkaar satgur parsaad.

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

khaak noor kardaN aalam dunee-aa-ay.

The Lord infused His Light into the dust, and created the world, the universe.

asmaan jimee darkhat aab paidaa-is khudaa-ay. ||1||

The sky, the earth, the trees, and the water - all are the Creation of the Lord. ||1||

banday chasam deedaN fanaa-ay.

O human being, whatever you can see with your eyes, shall perish.

duneeN-aa murdaar khurdanee gaafal havaa-ay. rahaa-o.

The world eats dead carcasses, living by neglect and greed. ||Pause||

gaibaan haivaan haraam kustanee murdaar bakhoraa-ay.

Like a goblin, or a beast, they kill and eat the forbidden carcasses of meat.

dil kabaj kabjaa kaadro dojak sajaa-ay. ||2||

So control your urges, or else you will be seized by the Lord, and thrown into the tortures of hell. ||2||

valee ni-aamat biraadaraa darbaar milak khaanaa-ay.

Your benefactors, presents, companions, courts, lands and homes -

jab ajraa-eel bastanee tab chay kaaray bidaa-ay. ||3||

when Azraa-eel, the Messenger of Death seizes you, what good will these be to you then? ||3||

havaal maaloom kardaN paak alaah.

The Pure Lord God knows your condition.

bugo naanak ardaas pays darvays bandaah. ||4||1||

O Nanak, recite your prayer to the holy people. ||4||1||

WRONG

Clearly Guruji is not talking about meat but is talking about neglect and greed. People are like vulture’s who eat “murder bahoray” dead carcases, or carrion, filth , eaten by vultures, i.e. people are like vultures.

You stated:

Kabeer khoob khaanaa kheecharee jaa mahi amrit lon. Heraa rotee kaarne galaa ktaavai kayun: Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice (Khicharhee) flavored with salt is excellent. Who would cut his throat (in his next life) to have meat of a killed animal with his bread? (sggs 1374).

Let us put it into context again:

oraa gar paanee bha-i-aa jaa-ay mili-o dhal kool. ||177||

The hail-stone has melted into water, and flowed into the ocean. ||177||

kabeeraa Dhoor sakayl kai puree-aa baaNDhee dayh.

Kabeer, the body is a pile of dust, collected and packed together.

divas chaar ko paykhnaa ant khayh kee khayh. ||178||

It is a show which lasts for only a few days, and then dust returns to dust. ||178||

kabeer sooraj chaaNd kai udai bha-ee sabh dayh.

Kabeer, bodies are like the rising and setting of the sun and the moon.

gur gobind kay bin milay palat bha-ee sabh khayh. ||179||

Without meeting the Guru, the Lord of the Universe, they are all reduced to dust again. ||179||

jah anbha-o tah bhai nahee jah bha-o tah har naahi.

Where the Fearless Lord is, there is no fear; where there is fear, the Lord is not there.

kahi-o kabeer bichaar kai sant sunhu man maahi. ||180||

Kabeer speaks after careful consideration; hear this, O Saints, in your minds. ||180||

kabeer jinahu kichhoo jaani-aa nahee tin sukh need bihaa-ay.

Kabeer, those who do not know anything, pass their lives in peaceful sleep.

hamhu jo boojhaa boojhnaa pooree paree balaa-ay. ||181||

But I have understood the riddle; I am faced with all sorts of troubles. ||181||

kabeer maaray bahut pukaari-aa peer pukaarai a-or.

Kabeer, those who are beaten cry a lot; but the cries of the pain of separation are different.

laagee chot maramm kee rahi-o kabeeraa tha-ur. ||182||

Struck by the Mystery of God, Kabeer remains silent. ||182||

kabeer chot suhaylee sayl kee laagat lay-ay usaas.

Kabeer, the stroke of a lance is easy to bear; it takes away the breath.

chot sahaarai sabad kee taas guroo mai daas. ||183||

But one who endures the stroke of the Word of the Shabad is the Guru, and I am his slave. ||183||

kabeer mulaaN munaaray ki-aa chadheh saaN-ee na bahraa ho-ay.

Kabeer: O Mullah, why do you climb to the top of the minaret? The Lord is not hard of hearing.

jaa kaaran tooN baaNg deh dil hee bheetar jo-ay. ||184||

Look within your own heart for the One, for whose sake you shout your prayers. ||184||

saykh sabooree baahraa ki-aa haj kaabay jaa-ay.

Why does the Shaykh bother to go on pilgrimage to Mecca, if he is not content with himself?

kabeer jaa kee dil saabat nahee taa ka-o kahaaN khudaa-ay. ||185||

Kabeer, one whose heart is not healthy and whole - how can he attain his Lord? ||185||

kabeer alah kee kar bandagee jih simrat dukh jaa-ay.

Kabeer, worship the Lord Allah; meditating in remembrance on Him, troubles and pains depart.

dil meh saaN-ee pargatai bujhai balantee naaN-ay. ||186||

The Lord shall be revealed within your own heart, and the burning fire within shall be extinguished by His Name. ||186||

kabeer joree kee-ay julam hai kahtaa naa-o halaal.

Kabeer, to use force is tyranny, even if you call it legal.

daftar laykhaa maaNgee-ai tab ho-igo ka-un havaal. ||187||

When your account is called for in the Court of the Lord, what will your condition be then? ||187||

kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.

Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.

hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un. ||188||

Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread? ||188||

kabeer gur laagaa tab jaanee-ai mitai moh tan taap.

Kabeer, one is known to have been touched by the Guru, only when his emotional attachment and physical illnesses are eradicated.

harakh sog daajhai nahee tab har aapeh aap. ||189||

He is not burned by pleasure or pain, and so he becomes the Lord Himself. ||189||

kabeer raam kahan meh bhayd hai taa meh ayk bichaar.

Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider.

so-ee raam sabhai kaheh so-ee ka-utakhaar. ||190||

Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath and the Wondrous Lord. ||190||

kabeer raamai raam kaho kahibay maahi bibayk.

Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction.

ayk anaykeh mil ga-i-aa ayk samaanaa ayk. ||191||

One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere, while the other is contained only in himself. ||191||

kabeer jaa ghar saaDh na sayvee-ah har kee sayvaa naahi.

Kabeer, those houses in which neither the Holy nor the Lord are served -

tay ghar marhat saarkhay bhoot baseh tin maahi. ||192||

those houses are like cremation grounds; demons dwell within them. ||192||

kabeer goongaa hoo-aa baavraa bahraa hoo-aa kaan.

Kabeer, I have become mute, insane and deaf.

paavhu tay pingul bha-i-aa maari-aa satgur baan. ||193||

I am crippled - the True Guru has pierced me with His Arrow. ||193||

kabeer satgur soormay baahi-aa baan jo ayk.

Kabeer, the True Guru, the Spiritual Warrior, has shot me with His Arrow.

laagat hee bhu-ay gir pari-aa paraa karayjay chhayk. ||194||

As soon as it struck me, I fell to the ground, with a hole in my heart. ||194||

॥

kabeer nirmal boond akaas kee par ga-ee bhoom bikaar.

Kabeer, the pure drop of water falls from the sky, onto the dirty ground.

Again you have quoted out of context and misled the forum. Note the context it is said in.. Basically, you go to all these pilgrimages and things yet the simplest of things brings you to the Guru. Like salt makes bad tasting beans taste good, the Guru makes everyday life good. The meat analogy is people who go here there and everywhere looking for answers (literally cut their own throat for a piece of meat (meat being God)), but they don’t realise that the meat (God) can be realised simply. It is an analogy, like, "you wouldn't jump offf a cliff if someone told you would you". In the same context, you wouldn't cut your own throat to eat would you?

word of advice. DO NOT quote from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji unless it is in context. You are deliberately misleading the forum, and I will expose you again and again

CONCLUSION, BANI DOES NOT ADVOCATE MEAT EATING OR VEGETARIANISM. ONLY THAT WHICH IS GOOD FOR THE MIND AND BODY

[sall]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh

This issue will never be resolved, never has been resolved in the past and the reasons for no resolution are the same as it was 50 years ago...i.e. taste of the tongue. Just goes to show how confused we Sikhs really are and we never move on and progress.Mr Brar has posted that essay about 15 years ago on Sikhs.org, I posted a similar essay to him at that time which is against eating meat as per Gurbani. At that time I wrote to him and said that if I respect what you belive as a Sikh , it would be great you respect the same as what I belive per translations of Gurbani and post my essay against meat eating too ,alongside your one which is for meat eating. To this day I haven't received a reply and I know I never will and it doens't bother me anymore. The irony is we ar so bent on our views that we don't even respect the opinion and just argue over it forever and show the Joe public coming on these forums how immature we are ...mind you it might change in another 500 years as Sikhe is the youngest religion and there is no one on this earth who can comprehend in their 50-70 year life bracket , what our Great Gurus have written in the Guru Granth Sahib which took over 250 odd years...

Chapai Sahib comes to mind:

"aaap apani budh hai jeetii"

p.s. please don't start a debate on chapuai sahib translations

[WGJKKWGJKF]

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

I think i could be wrong on this matter, and we might be allowed to eat non-halal meat, according to what you have presented before me.

However brother i would like to say one thing i wasnt deliberatly misleading the forum, i only written what i had acknowledged from reading other articles about this issue, and it would of been wrong of me if i had said we are allowed to eat meat if what i had interpreted from Gurbani was against it, and i guess my interpretations were wrong due to my and limited knowlegde about the Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

And brother i would like to thank you for telling me the deeper meanings behind the quotes that i had given.

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

[WGJKKWGJKF]

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

I went away after thinking about what you presented.

Also the facts about the prophets hunting are false.

However i realised the arguments u presented doesnt make sense please could you explain this:

You said:

ja-o sabh meh ayk khudaa-ay kahat ha-o ta-o ki-o murgee maarai. ||1||

You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens? ||1||

Kabeer ji is NOT talking about meat but the hypocrisy of Mullahs. That is clearly stated above when put in context. You are deliberately misleading the forum.

When you said this it made sense to me.

However after thinking about it when i went away, i realised that won't that be hypocrisy of the Sikhs if we also say God is in all and then kill chickens ourslefs?

---------------

You qouted:

kabeer bhaaNg maachhulee suraa paan jo jo paraanee khaaNhi.

Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine –

Notice Kabir Ji uses the word fish and not meat. Fish was a delicacy for the rich (as is still today in Punjab), and only the rich could afford it. Along with wine and marijuana, which were playthings for the rich.

Put into context the entire Tukh is talking about the rich who lead frivolous lives, and are bloated and drunk on their foods, and wine.

If this qoute is against eating fish then whats the difference between fish and meat?

--------------

Can you also explain this qoute from gurbani:

ka-un maas ka-un saag kahaavai kis meh paap samaanay.

What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin?

According to my knowledge this qoute is talking about how foolish ppl are who cant distinguish between meat and vegetables. And how foolish ppl are who cant distinguish bwteen the food that leads to sin (ie meat) and which food doesnt (vegtables).

--------

And lastly brother can u explain why about why was that hindu became an incarnate of a wolf for desiring meat?

http://www.sacred-texts.com/skh/tsr1/tsr114.htm

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

[maltonak47]

what i really wanna knw is how ppl like u guys manage to write such long posts...lol..like seriously...