Heaven And Hell

[randip singh]

Guru Gobind Singh Ji writes in Bchittar Natak :

CHAUPAI

When I created the world in the beginning, I created the ignominious and dreadful Daityas/Jhamdhoots.

Who became mad with power and abandoned the worship of Supreme Purusha.6.

I destroyed them in no time and created gods in their place.

They were also absorbed in the worship of power and called themselves Ominipotent.7.

Clearly these dhaitas and jhamdhoots are not the five vices you talk about but actual life forms. If you want to deny this then that is your choice.

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These were stories created by Guruji to explain to frightened little Hindu's the universe interms they would undertsnad. Clearly You understand the Universe in these terms, wheras Guruji was far above this.

[randip singh]

yes randip singh ji, there are shabdhs about how heaven and hell can be on this earth, but there many shabdhs telling us the reality of hell. do not slander the guru by dismissing this! this would be a great sin! i've seen both types of shbds and i know they are both correct, gurbani is 100% truth.

dont pick a part of gurbani, look at the whole of it!

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Excuse me!!!!!!!

Before you dare accuse me of slandering the Guru point our where I have? Sikhs do not have a concept of sin (that is a Semetic notion). Sometimes Good people are called on to do bad things (eg kill people in battle).

I am not picking on little parts but presenting entire texts unlike Bandha who does not even put page numbers and quotes three or four line to further his own New Age Brahmin agenda.

[randip singh]

CHAUPAI

When I created the world in the beginning, I created the ignominious and dreadful Daityas.

Jab pahile ham sristtee banaaoo|| Daoot rache dust dukhdaaoo||

Who became mad with power and abandoned the worship of Supreme Purusha.6.

Te bhuj bal bavre hvai gae|| Poojat Param Purakh raih gae||6||

I destroyed them in no time and created gods in their place.

Te ham tamak(i) tanak mo khaape|| Tin koo thaur devtaa thaape||

They were also absorbed in the worship of power and called themselves Ominipotednt.7.

Te bhoo bal(i) poojaa urjhaae|| aapan hoo Parmesar kahaae||7||

Mahadeo (Shiva) was called Achyuta (blotless), Vishnu considered himself the Supreme.

Mahaadev achutt kahnyo|| Bisan aap hoo ko thahiraayo||

Brahma called himself Para Brahman, none could comprehend the Lord.8.

Brahmaa aap Paarbrahm bakhaanaa|| Prabh ko Prabhoo na kinhoon jaanaa||8||

Hope this helps.

If anyone wants to know what Guru Sahib Ji thinks of Mohommad/Koran/Vedas/purans then read Bachittar Natak.

The above chaupai goes on to say that Mohommad was created and all he did was become raja of Arabia and got all the rajay to be circumcised and set himself up as a demigod, Reading the Koran or Purans leads to nothing .

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The key point you have missed out is that Shiva, Achutya and Vishnu all became victims of Kaal or Time....therefore how could they be gods? Guruji is stating clearly these were Gods in name only and were mere men like Mohammed.

[randip singh]

double post

[randip singh]

Nice to know that I am well known……………….. I am but a humble servant.

Watch out Tableji has turned on you yaar !

BTW, Randip Ji you live in Birmingham, do you know a Harjit singh Sembhi?

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No

[Bundha]

<<< These were stories created by Guruji to explain to frightened little Hindu's the universe interms they would undertsnad. Clearly You understand the Universe in these terms, wheras Guruji was far above this. >>>

Sorry Randip Ji, Guru Sahib Ji never "create stories" for Guru Ji only speaks the Truth, always. If these were mere stories then they would be false, and Guru Ji would never repeats anything false.

Tell me, Guru Sahib Ji recounts his own previous life on Hemkund Sahib mountain, is this also a mere story ?

<<< The key point you have missed out is that Shiva, Achutya and Vishnu all became victims of Kaal or Time....therefore how could they be gods? Guruji is stating clearly these were Gods in name only and were mere men like Mohammed. >>>

No, Randip Ji I think you have missed the point. ShivJi, Brahama, Vishnu were not mere men. They were/are Dhevtay and as such have a special status. But in the end they all succomb to Kaal, there is no doubt about that.

[randip singh]

  <<< These were stories created by Guruji to explain to frightened little Hindu's the universe interms they would undertsnad. Clearly You understand the Universe in these terms, wheras Guruji was far above this.  >>>

Sorry Randip Ji, Guru Sahib Ji never "create stories" for Guru Ji only speaks the Truth, always. If these were mere stories then they would be false, and Guru Ji would never repeats anything false.

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Interesting you say that the stories of the Guru's were false.

Stories are made to illustrate a point, and metaphors are used to illustrate a point.

Being false or true is neither here nor there.

Now if I were a Brahmin fearing Hindu who had been taught abbout demi-gods and jamdoots etc, the onlY way I would understand Guruji's point would be through stories and legends I was familiar with. Yes to the average Hindu they were very real, but Guruji knew that he had to destroy this superstitious clap trap and does so by saying they were all victims of time I.e. they died.

 

Tell me, Guru Sahib Ji recounts his own previous life on Hemkund Sahib mountain, is this also a mere story ? 

147601[/snapback]

Yes a common misconception used by Arya Samaji’s to make out Guruji worshipped Siva. Clearly a gross mis-interpretation of Guruji’s metaphor of what his purpose was on this earth.

Bal Singh of sikh-history.com, described this beautifully as Guruji description of life in the womb.

<<< The key point you have missed out is that Shiva, Achutya and Vishnu all became victims of Kaal or Time....therefore how could they be gods? Guruji is stating clearly these were Gods in name only and were mere men like Mohammed.  >>>

No, Randip Ji I think you have missed the point. ShivJi, Brahama, Vishnu were not mere men. They were/are Dhevtay and as such have a special status. But in the end they all succomb to Kaal, there is no doubt about that.

147601[/snapback]

You are contradicting yourself!

How can immortal beings die, unless of course they are not immortal? make your mind up, which is it?

In many ways this reminds me of Bible thumpers who claim Jesus is the only son of God!

[randip singh]

randip singh, please dont use gurbani to follow your views, look at the shabahds with an open mind and see what guru ji is telling us. bundu and randip singh are infact BOTH right, in a sense. three types of hell:

away from waheguru

8.4 million joon

a real terrible hell where punishments are carried out

this earth can be like heaven or hell, but there as the reality of heavens and hells in dharam khand.

pwpIAw no n dyeI iQru rhix cuix nrk Goir cwilAnu ]

paapeeaa no n dhaeee thhir rehan chun narak ghor chaalian ||

He does not give the sinners any stability or place of rest; He consigns them to the depths of hell.

hir Bgqw no dyie ipAwru kir AMgu insqwirAnu ]19]

har bhagathaa no dhaee piaar kar a(n)g nisathaarian ||19||

The Lord blesses His devotees with His Love; He sides with them and saves them. ||19||

keI koit nrk surg invwsI ]

kee kott narak surag nivaasee ||

Many millions dwell in heaven and hell.

sMq kY dUKin nrk mih pwie ]

sa(n)th kai dhookhan narak mehi paae ||

Slandering the Saints, one falls into hell.

koaU nrk koaU surg bMCwvq ]

kooo narak kooo surag ba(n)shhaavath ||

Some have gone to hell, and some yearn for paradise.

jamdhoots carry out punishments:

ijn hir hir hir rsu nwmu n pwieAw qy BwghIx jm pwis ]

jin har har har ras naam n paaeiaa thae bhaageheen jam paas ||

Those who have not obtained the Sublime Essence of the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, Har, are most unfortunate; they are led away by the Messenger of Death.

ijau ijau clih cuBY duKu pwvih jmkwlu shih isir fMfw hy ]2]

jio jio chalehi chubhai dhukh paavehi jamakaal sehehi sir dda(n)ddaa hae ||2||

The more they walk away, the deeper it pierces them, and the more they suffer in pain, until finally, the Messenger of Death smashes his club against their heads. ||2||

AND THIS SHABDH EVEN SHOWS US HOW HELL IS A REALITY:

Bgq vfw rwjw jnk hY gurmuK mwXw ivc audwsI]

bhagath vaddaa raajaa janak hai guramukh maayaa vich oudhaasee||

King Janak was a great saint who amidst maya remained indifferent to it.

dyv lok noN cilAw gx gMDrb sBw suKvwsI]

dhaev lok no(n) chaliaa gan ga(n)dhharab sabhaa sukhavaasee||

Along with gans and gandharvs (calestial musicians) he went to the abode of the gods.

jmpur gieAw pukwr sux ivllwvn jI nrk invwsI]

jamapur gaeiaa pukaar sun vilalaavan jee narak nivaasee||

From there, he, hearing the cries of inhabitants of hell, went to them.

Drmrwie no AwiKEnu sBnw dI kr bMd KlwsI]

dhharamaraae no aakhioun sabhanaa dhee kar ba(n)dh khalaasee||

He asked the god of death, Dharamrai, to relieve all their suffering.

kry bynqI Drmrwie hau syvk Twkur AibnwsI]

karae baenathee dhharamaraae ho saevak t(h)aakur abinaasee||

Hearing this, the god of death told him he was a mere servant of the eternal Lord (and without His orders he could not liberate them).

gihxy DirAnu iek nwauN pwpW nwl krY inrjwsI]

gehinae dhharian eik naaou(n) paapaa(n) naal karai nirajaasee||

Janak offered a part of his devotion and remembrance of the name of the Lord.

pwsMg pwp n pujnI gurmuK nwauN Aqul n qulwsI]

paasa(n)g paap n pujanee guramukh naaou(n) athul n thulaasee||

All the sins of hell were found not equal even to the counterweight of balance.

nrkhuM Cuty jIAw jMq ktI glhu islk jmPwsI]

narakahu(n) shhuttae jeeaa ja(n)th kattee galahu silak jamafaasee||

In fact no balance can weigh the fruits of recitation and remembrance of the Lords name by the gurmukh.

mukiq jugiq nwvYN kI dwsI ]õ]

mukath jugath naavai(n) kee dhaasee ||a||

All the creatures got liberated from hell and the noose of death was cut. Liberation and the technique of attaining it are the servants of the name of the Lord.

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Sorry had to laugh at

bundu and randip singh

I disagree.

You say

All the creatures got liberated from hell and the noose of death was cut. Liberation and the technique of attaining it are the servants of the name of the Lord.

So these people went to a place call hel and then they were liberated?

NO!

Once you are in hell you are in hell for eternity. What Guruji is describing is the physical hell we create for ourselves here and now.

[randip singh]

found this interesting tukh page page 214 Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥

ik-oNkaar satgur parsaad.

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਲੇਹੁ ਮੀਤਾ ਲੇਹੁ ਆਗੈ ਬਿਖਮ ਪੰਥੁ ਭੈਆਨ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

हरि नामु लेहु मीता लेहु आगै बिखम पंथु भैआन ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥

har naam layho meetaa layho aagai bikham panth bhai-aan. ||1|| rahaa-o.

Chant the Lord's Name; O my friend, chant it. Hereafter, the path is terrifying and treacherous. ||1||Pause||

ਸੇਵਤ ਸੇਵਤ ਸਦਾ ਸੇਵਿ ਤੇਰੈ ਸੰਗਿ ਬਸਤੁ ਹੈ ਕਾਲੁ ॥

सेवत सेवत सदा सेवि तेरै संगि बसतु है कालु ॥

sayvat sayvat sadaa sayv tayrai sang basat hai kaal.

Serve, serve, forever serve the Lord. Death hangs over your head.

ਕਰਿ ਸੇਵਾ ਤੂੰ ਸਾਧ ਕੀ ਹੋ ਕਾਟੀਐ ਜਮ ਜਾਲੁ ॥੧॥

करि सेवा तूं साध की हो काटीऐ जम जालु ॥१॥

kar sayvaa tooN saaDh kee ho kaatee-ai jam jaal. ||1||

Do seva, selfless service, for the Holy Saints, and the noose of Death shall be cut away. ||1||

ਹੋਮ ਜਗ ਤੀਰਥ ਕੀਏ ਬਿਚਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਬਧੇ ਬਿਕਾਰ ॥

होम जग तीरथ कीए बिचि हउमै बधे बिकार ॥

hom jag tirath kee-ay bich ha-umai baDhay bikaar.

You may make burnt offerings, sacrificial feasts and pilgrimages to sacred shrines in egotism, but your corruption only increases.

ਨਰਕੁ ਸੁਰਗੁ ਦੁਇ ਭੁੰਚਨਾ ਹੋਇ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਅਵਤਾਰ ॥੨॥

नरकु सुरगु दुइ भुंचना होइ बहुरि बहुरि अवतार ॥२॥

narak surag du-ay bhunchanaa ho-ay bahur bahur avtaar. ||2||

You are subject to both heaven and hell, and you are reincarnated over and over again. ||2||

ਸਿਵ ਪੁਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਪੁਰੀ ਨਿਹਚਲੁ ਕੋ ਥਾਉ ਨਾਹਿ ॥

सिव पुरी ब्रहम इंद्र पुरी निहचलु को थाउ नाहि ॥

siv puree barahm indar puree nihchal ko thaa-o naahi.

The realm of Shiva, the realms of Brahma and Indra as well - no place anywhere is permanent.

ਬਿਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਸੇਵਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਨਹੀ ਹੋ ਸਾਕਤ ਆਵਹਿ ਜਾਹਿ ॥੩॥

बिनु हरि सेवा सुखु नही हो साकत आवहि जाहि ॥३॥

bin har sayvaa sukh nahee ho saakat aavahi jaahi. ||3||

Without serving the Lord, there is no peace at all. The faithless cynic comes and goes in reincarnation. ||3||

ਜੈਸੋ ਗੁਰਿ ਉਪਦੇਸਿਆ ਮੈ ਤੈਸੋ ਕਹਿਆ ਪੁਕਾਰਿ ॥

जैसो गुरि उपदेसिआ मै तैसो कहिआ पुकारि ॥

jaiso gur updaysi-aa mai taiso kahi-aa pukaar.

As the Guru has taught me, so have I spoken.

ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਹੈ ਸੁਨਿ ਰੇ ਮਨਾ ਕਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਹੋਇ ਉਧਾਰੁ ॥੪॥੧॥੧੫੮॥

नानकु कहै सुनि रे मना करि कीरतनु होइ उधारु ॥४॥१॥१५८॥

naanak kahai sun ray manaa kar keertan ho-ay uDhaar. ||4||1||158||

Says Nanak, listen, people: sing the Kirtan of the Lord's Praises, and you shall be saved. ||4||1||158|| 

Interesting that Guruji describes heaven and hell in the same breath as well as incarnation?

[singh_khalsa]

hell isnt eternal as the christians believe it, so that shabdh about those being freed from hell isnt a lie. doing naam simran, while doing good, will save us from any type of hell.

guru ji is telling us that you are reborn many times and end up in heaven or hell after each death. so a warning to do naam simran. but this is for debate what guru ji means in this actual shabdh. but i already told you yes ther is heaven and hell on this eartch but there's also a physical hell and heaven after death. so you dont need to prove your belief of heaven and hell being on earth, the debate is whether there is are real hells and heavens after death.