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Heaven And Hell


sat_naam18
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kharkoo how dare you say guru nanak himself doesnt know. this is just plain bad to say guruji doesnt know something. what guru ji is saying that we manmukhs do not what happens to the soul after death. look how many theoires there have been about the afterlife in this world. if you disagree, then start a topic saying guru ji doesnt know everything and use that as an example.

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Interesting you say that, but I am sure that even Guruji says words to the effect only he/she (God) is the all knowing. Even Guruji doesn't claim to know everything. If Guruji knew everything then wouldnt he in effect be God?

Our Guru's were men wiith knowledge of God and how to realise God, but I don't think they ever claimed to know everything as you have implied.

Here are countless lines where Guruji describes only God as the All-Knowing.

Page 22, Line 19

ਅਗੈ ਸਾਹੁ ਸੁਜਾਣੁ ਹੈ ਲੈਸੀ ਵਸਤੁ ਸਮਾਲਿ ॥੧॥

अगै साहु सुजाणु है लैसी वसतु समालि ॥१॥

agai saahu sujaan hai laisee vasat samaal. ||1||

In the next world, the All-knowing Merchant will take this object and care for it. ||1||

Guru Nanak Dev  -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 25, Line 6

ਤੂ ਦਰੀਆਉ ਦਾਨਾ ਬੀਨਾ ਮੈ ਮਛੁਲੀ ਕੈਸੇ ਅੰਤੁ ਲਹਾ ॥

तू दरीआउ दाना बीना मै मछुली कैसे अंतु लहा ॥

too daree-aa-o daanaa beenaa mai machhulee kaisay ant lahaa.

You are the River, All-knowing and All-seeing. I am just a fish-how can I find Your limit?

Guru Nanak Dev  -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 43, Line 14

ਜਿਸ ਤੇ ਸੋਝੀ ਮਨਿ ਪਈ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸੁਜਾਣੁ ॥

जिस ते सोझी मनि पई मिलिआ पुरखु सुजाणु ॥

jis tay sojhee man pa-ee mili-aa purakh sujaan.

Through them, understanding has entered my mind, and I have met the All-knowing Lord God.

Guru Arjan Dev  -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 51, Line 13

ਕਿਆ ਕਹਉ ਸੁਣਉ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਤੂੰ ਵਡ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸੁਜਾਣਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

किआ कहउ सुणउ सुआमी तूं वड पुरखु सुजाणा ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥

ki-aa kaha-o suna-o su-aamee tooN vad purakh sujaanaa. ||1|| rahaa-o.

What should I say, and what should I hear? O my Lord and Master, You are Great, All-powerful and All-knowing. ||1||Pause||

Guru Arjan Dev  -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 54, Line 17

ਸਾਚੀ ਵਾਟ ਸੁਜਾਣੁ ਤੂੰ ਸਬਦਿ ਲਘਾਵਣਹਾਰੁ ॥

साची वाट सुजाणु तूं सबदि लघावणहारु ॥

saachee vaat sujaan tooN sabad laghaavanhaar.

O All-knowing Lord, You are the True Way. The Shabad is the Navigator to ferry us across.

Guru Nanak Dev  -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 55, Line 16

ਤੂੰਹੈ ਸਾਜਨੁ ਤੂੰ ਸੁਜਾਣੁ ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਮੇਲਣਹਾਰੁ ॥

तूंहै साजनु तूं सुजाणु तूं आपे मेलणहारु ॥

tooNhai saajan tooN sujaan tooN aapay maylanhaar.

You are my Best Friend; You are All-knowing. You are the One who unites us with Yourself.

Guru Nanak Dev  -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 93, Line 2

ਮਿਰਤਕ ਪਿੰਡਿ ਪਦ ਮਦ ਨਾ ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਏਕੁ ਅਗਿਆਨ ਸੁ ਨਾਗਾ ॥

मिरतक पिंडि पद मद ना अहिनिसि एकु अगिआन सु नागा ॥

mirtak pind pad mad naa ahinis ayk agi-aan so naagaa.

You took no pride in your perishable body; night and day were all the same to you-you lived unknowing, in the silence of the void.

Devotee Baini  -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 101, Line 19

ਤੂੰ ਦਾਨਾ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਸਭ ਬਿਧਿ ਜਾਨਹਿ ॥

तूं दाना ठाकुरु सभ बिधि जानहि ॥

tooN daanaa thaakur sabh biDh jaaneh.

You are the All-knowing Lord and Master; You know all ways and means.

Guru Arjan Dev  -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 138, Line 7

ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਸੁਜਾਣੁ ਹੈ ਵਡ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਵਡਾਤੀ ॥

तूं आपे आपि सुजाणु है वड पुरखु वडाती ॥

tooN aapay aap sujaan hai vad purakh vadaatee.

You Yourself are All-knowing. O Lord, You are the Greatest of the Great!

Guru Nanak Dev  -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 138, Line 15

ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਦਰੀ ਆਇਆ ਹਰਿ ਇਕੋ ਸੁਘੜੁ ਸੁਜਾਣੀਐ ॥੨॥

नानक गुरमुखि नदरी आइआ हरि इको सुघड़ु सुजाणीऐ ॥२॥

naanak gurmukh nadree aa-i-aa har iko sugharh sujaanee-ai. ||2||

O Nanak, the Lord alone is Perfect and All-knowing; He is revealed to the Gurmukh. ||2||

Guru Angad Dev  -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 146, Line 8

ਲਈਅਨਿ ਖਰੇ ਪਰਖਿ ਦਰਿ ਬੀਨਾਈਐ ॥

लईअनि खरे परखि दरि बीनाईऐ ॥

la-ee-an kharay parakh dar beenaa-ee-ai.

The genuine are assayed, and accepted in the Court of the All-knowing Lord.

Guru Nanak Dev  -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 154, Line 5

ਤੂੰ ਦਾਨਾ ਬੀਨਾ ਸਾਚਾ ਸਿਰਿ ਮੇਰੈ ॥

तूं दाना बीना साचा सिरि मेरै ॥

tooN daanaa beenaa saachaa sir mayrai.

You are All-knowing, All-seeing and True, O my Supreme Lord.

Guru Nanak Dev  -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 173, Line 2

ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਮਿਲੁ ਸੁਘੜ ਸੁਜਾਣੀ ਜੀਉ ॥

वडभागी मिलु सुघड़ सुजाणी जीउ ॥

vadbhaagee mil sugharh sujaanee jee-o.

By great good fortune, I met the most accomplished and all-knowing Lord.

Guru Ram Das  -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 174, Line 11

ਹਰਿ ਸੁਜਾਣੁ ਨ ਭੁਲਈ ਮੇਰੇ ਗੋਵਿੰਦਾ ਆਪੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਜੋਗੀ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥

हरि सुजाणु न भुलई मेरे गोविंदा आपे सतिगुरु जोगी जीउ ॥१॥

har sujaan na bhul-ee mayray govindaa aapay satgur jogee jee-o. ||1||

The Lord is All-knowing - He cannot be fooled, O my Lord of the Universe. He is the True Guru, the Yogi. ||1||

Guru Ram Das  -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 175, Line 11

ਮੇਰਾ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਮੁ ਮਿਤ੍ਰੁ ਹਰਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸੁਜਾਣੁ ਜੀਉ ॥

मेरा प्रीतमु मित्रु हरि पुरखु सुजाणु जीउ ॥

mayraa pareetam mitar har purakh sujaan jee-o.

The Lord, the Primal Being, is All-knowing; He is my Beloved and my Best Friend.

Guru Ram Das  -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 175, Line 12

ਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਲੇ ਸੰਤ ਹਰਿ ਸੁਘੜੁ ਸੁਜਾਣੁ ਜੀਉ ॥

गुरु मेले संत हरि सुघड़ु सुजाणु जीउ ॥

gur maylay sant har sugharh sujaan jee-o.

The Saintly Guru has united me with the All-knowing and All-seeing Lord.

Guru Ram Das  -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 211, Line 7

ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸੁਜਾਨੁ ॥

अंतरजामी प्रभ सुजानु ॥

antarjaamee parabh sujaan.

God is All-knowing, the Inner-knower, the Searcher of hearts.

Guru Arjan Dev  -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 215, Line 2

ਨਿਰਭਉ ਭਏ ਸੰਤ ਭ੍ਰਮੁ ਡਾਰਿਓ ਪੂਰਨ ਸਰਬਾਗਿਓ ॥੨॥

निरभउ भए संत भ्रमु डारिओ पूरन सरबागिओ ॥२॥

nirbha-o bha-ay sant bharam daari-o pooran sarbaagi-o. ||2||

I have become fearless; the Saint has removed my doubts. The All-knowing Lord is pervading everywhere. ||2||

Guru Arjan Dev  -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 240, Line 12

ਸੁੰਦਰੁ ਸੁਘੜੁ ਚਤੁਰੁ ਜੀਅ ਦਾਤਾ ॥

सुंदरु सुघड़ु चतुरु जीअ दाता ॥

sundar sugharh chatur jee-a daataa.

He is Beautiful, All-knowing, the most Clever, the Giver of life.

Guru Arjan Dev  -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 246, Line 9

ਆਪੇ ਦਾਨਾ ਆਪੇ ਬੀਨਾ ਆਪੇ ਸੇਵ ਕਰਾਏ ॥

आपे दाना आपे बीना आपे सेव कराए ॥

aapay daanaa aapay beenaa aapay sayv karaa-ay.

He Himself is All-knowing, and He Himself is All-seeing; He inspires us to serve Him.

Guru Amar Das  -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 248, Line 9

ਮਲ ਮੂਤ ਮੂੜ ਜਿ ਮੁਗਧ ਹੋਤੇ ਸਿ ਦੇਖਿ ਦਰਸੁ ਸੁਗਿਆਨਾ ॥

मल मूत मूड़ जि मुगध होते सि देखि दरसु सुगिआना ॥

mal moot moorh je mugaDh hotay se daykh daras sugi-aanaa.

Those who are foolish and stupid, filthy with urine and manure, become all-knowing upon gaining the Blessed Vision of Your Darshan.

Guru Arjan Dev  -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 258, Line 18

ਦੇਨਹਾਰ ਦੇ ਰਹਿਓ ਸੁਜਾਨਾ ॥

देनहार दे रहिओ सुजाना ॥

daynhaar day rahi-o sujaanaa.

the Great Giver continues to give. He is All-knowing.

Guru Arjan Dev  -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 283, Line 18

ਆਪੇ ਬੀਨਾ ਆਪੇ ਦਾਨਾ ॥

आपे बीना आपे दाना ॥

aapay beenaa aapay daanaa.

He Himself is All-seeing; He Himself is All-knowing,

Guru Arjan Dev  -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 283, Line 19

ਗਹਿਰ ਗੰਭੀਰੁ ਗਹੀਰੁ ਸੁਜਾਨਾ ॥

गहिर ग्मभीरु गहीरु सुजाना ॥

gahir gambheer gaheer sujaanaa.

Unfathomable, Profound, Deep and All-knowing.

Guru Arjan Dev  -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 300, Line 7

ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸੁਜਾਨੁ ਅਲਖ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਸੋਇ ॥

अंतरजामी प्रभु सुजानु अलख निरंजन सोइ ॥

antarjaamee parabh sujaan alakh niranjan so-ay.

God, the Inner-knower, the Searcher of hearts, is All-knowing, Unseen and Immaculately Pure.

Guru Arjan Dev  -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 305, Line 10

ਤੂ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਅਗਮ ਦਇਆਲੁ ਹੈ ਵਡ ਦਾਤਾ ਦਾਣਾ ॥

तू साहिबु अगम दइआलु है वड दाता दाणा ॥

too saahib agam da-i-aal hai vad daataa daanaa.

You, O Lord and Master, are inaccessible and merciful; You are the Great Giver, All-knowing.

Guru Ram Das  -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 318, Line 3

ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਦੁਖੁ ਕਟਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਭੇਟਿਆ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸੁਜਾਣੁ ॥

जनम मरन दुखु कटिआ हरि भेटिआ पुरखु सुजाणु ॥

janam maran dukh kati-aa har bhayti-aa purakh sujaan.

The pains of birth and death are eradicated, upon meeting the All-knowing Lord, the Primal Being.

Guru Arjan Dev  -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 370, Line 12

ਪਿਰਿ ਰਖਿਆ ਕੀਨੀ ਸੁਘੜ ਸੁਜਾਣਿ ॥੧॥

पिरि रखिआ कीनी सुघड़ सुजाणि ॥१॥

pir rakhi-aa keenee sugharh sujaan. ||1||

I am protected by my All-knowing, Wise Husband Lord. ||1||

Guru Arjan Dev  -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 374, Line 18

ਜਿਸ ਤੇ ਪਾਈਐ ਹਰਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸੁਜਾਨੁ ॥੫॥੧੪॥

जिस ते पाईऐ हरि पुरखु सुजानु ॥५॥१४॥

jis tay paa-ee-ai har purakh sujaan. ||5||14||

through Him, I obtain the Lord, the All-knowing Primal Being. ||5||14||

Guru Arjan Dev  -  view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 383, Line 11

ਤੂੰ ਦਾਨਾ ਤੂੰ ਸਦ ਮਿਹਰਵਾਨਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਰੰਗੁ ਮਾਣੀ ॥੩॥

तूं दाना तूं सद मिहरवाना नामु मिलै रंगु माणी ॥३॥

tooN daanaa tooN sad miharvaanaa naam milai rang maanee. ||3||

You are all-knowing, You are forever compassionate; obtaining Your Name, I revel in it and make merry. ||3||

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<<<< Here are countless lines where Guruji describes only God as the All-Knowing. >>>>

Guru Sahib Ji are describing God as all-knowing, but it does not follow that Guru Ji was not all-knowing.

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<<<<  Here are countless lines where Guruji describes only God as the All-Knowing.  >>>>

Guru Sahib Ji are describing God as all-knowing, but it does not follow that Guru Ji was not all-knowing.

148500[/snapback]

Page 138, Line 15

ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਦਰੀ ਆਇਆ ਹਰਿ ਇਕੋ ਸੁਘੜੁ ਸੁਜਾਣੀਐ ॥੨॥

नानक गुरमुखि नदरी आइआ हरि इको सुघड़ु सुजाणीऐ ॥२॥

naanak gurmukh nadree aa-i-aa har iko sugharh sujaanee-ai. ||2||

O Nanak, the Lord alone is Perfect and All-knowing; He is revealed to the Gurmukh. ||2||

Guru Angad Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

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gur goivMdu guoivMdu gurU hY nwnk Bydu n BweI ]4]1]8]

gur govi(n)dh guovi(n)dh guroo hai naanak bhaedh n bhaaee ||4||1||8||

The Guru is God, and God is the Guru, O Nanak; there is no difference between the two, O Siblings of Destiny. ||4||1||8||

maybe randip singh will reject guruji's shabdh here? but all other shabdhs which randip singh agrees to is fine?

gur goibMd gopwl gur gur pUrn nwrwiexh ]

gur gobi(n)dh gopaal gur gur pooran naaraaeineh ||

The Guru is the Lord of the Universe; the Guru is the Lord of the world; the Guru is the Perfect Pervading Lord God.

guru goibMd gurU gopwl ]

gur gobi(n)dh guroo gopaal ||

The Guru is the Lord of the Universe, the Guru is the Lord of the World.

guru gopwlu guru goivMdw ]

gur gopaal gur govi(n)dhaa ||

The Guru is the Lord of the World, the Guru is the Master of the Universe.

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gur goivMdu guoivMdu gurU hY nwnk Bydu n BweI ]4]1]8]

gur govi(n)dh guovi(n)dh guroo hai naanak bhaedh n bhaaee ||4||1||8||

The Guru is God, and God is the Guru, O Nanak; there is no difference between the two, O Siblings of Destiny. ||4||1||8||

maybe randip singh will reject guruji's shabdh here? but all other shabdhs which randip singh agrees to is fine?

gur goibMd gopwl gur gur pUrn nwrwiexh ]

gur gobi(n)dh gopaal gur gur pooran naaraaeineh ||

The Guru is the Lord of the Universe; the Guru is the Lord of the world; the Guru is the Perfect Pervading Lord God.

guru goibMd gurU gopwl ]

gur gobi(n)dh guroo gopaal ||

The Guru is the Lord of the Universe, the Guru is the Lord of the World.

guru gopwlu guru goivMdw ]

gur gopaal gur govi(n)dhaa ||

The Guru is the Lord of the World, the Guru is the Master of the Universe.

148512[/snapback]

Guru in this context is not Guru as in the Human Guru, but refering to God...the ultimate teacher.

As you said correctly before why would our Guru's writes stuff praising themselves.

They had knowledge of God, but were not God!

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(As per another thread accusing us of being very nasty to each other, I for one am going to be extra civil)

Piarya Piaray Randip Singh Bhaji Ji,

when Guru Sahib Ji says that they merged with AkalPurkh and became one with Him, then where does the "Human Guru" end and the "AkalPurkh" Guru start ?

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pyare randip singh ji,

ok yes satguru ji is reffered to as god, the ultimate true teacher.

sB qy vfw siqguru nwnku ijin kl rwKI myrI ]4]10]57]

sabh thae vaddaa sathigur naanak jin kal raakhee maeree ||4||10||57||

Guru Nanak is the greatest of all; He saved my honor in this Dark Age of Kali Yuga. ||4||10||57||

guru nanak dev ji and the following human gurus, siri guru granth sahib and waheguru are the one and the same satguru.

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pyare randip singh ji,

ok yes satguru ji is reffered to as god, the ultimate true teacher.

sB qy vfw siqguru nwnku ijin kl rwKI myrI ]4]10]57]

sabh thae vaddaa sathigur naanak jin kal raakhee maeree ||4||10||57||

Guru Nanak is the greatest of all; He saved my honor in this Dark Age of Kali Yuga. ||4||10||57||

guru nanak dev ji and the following human gurus, siri guru granth sahib and waheguru are the one and the same satguru.

148527[/snapback]

The Guru's are One Jyot as we recognise them, but for one Guru to praise another does not mean they are saying they worship that Guru as God. They are acknowledging the passing of that Jyot from one Guru to another.

In the same way we may homour our parents.

The Tukh you have referred to does not say Guru Nanak way God, but Guru Nanak showed the way to God. There is a big difference there.

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    • I agree we're not born with sin like the Christians think. Also I agree we have effects of karma. But Gurbani does state that the body contains both sin and charity (goodness): ਕਾਇਆ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਪਾਪੁ ਪੁੰਨੁ ਦੁਇ ਭਾਈ ॥ Within the body are the two brothers sin and virtue. p126 Actually, we do need to be saved. Gurbani calls this "udhaar" (uplift). Without Satguru, souls are liable to spiritual death: ਜਿਨਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨ ਭੇਟਿਓ ਸੇ ਭਾਗਹੀਣ ਵਸਿ ਕਾਲ ॥ p40 Those who have not met Satguru Purakh are unfortunate and liable to death. So, yeah, we do need to be saved, and Guru ji does the saving. The reason Satguru is the one to save is because God has given Satguru the "key" (kunji): ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਹਥਿ ਕੁੰਜੀ ਹੋਰਤੁ ਦਰੁ ਖੁਲੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰੈ ਭਾਗਿ ਮਿਲਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੭॥ In the True Guru's hand is the key. None else can open the door. By perfect good fortune the Guru is met. p124
    • That's unfortunate to hear. Could you give any more information? Who was this "baba"? He just disappeared with people's money? Obviously, you should donate your money to known institutions or poor people that you can verify the need of through friends and family in Punjab.
    • Sangat ji,  I know a family who went Sevewal to do seva sometimes end of 2019. They returned last year in great dismay and heart broken.  To repent for their mistakes they approached panj pyaare. The Panj gave them their punishment / order to how t make it up which, with Kirpa, they fulfilled.  They were listening to a fake Baba who, in the end, took all the "Donations " and fled sometime over a year ago. For nearly 4 years this family (who are great Gursikhs once u get to know them) wasted time and effort for this fake Baba. NOT ONLY this one fam. But many, many did worldwide and they took their fam to do seva, in village Sevewal, city Jaitho in Punjab. In the end many families lost money in thousands being behind this Baba. The family, on return, had to get in touch with all the participants and told them to stop.  I am stating this here to create awareness and we need to learn from whom we follow and believe. It's no easy but if we follow the 3 S (Sangat, Simran and Seva) we will be shown the light. As I am writing this the family in question have been doing the same since 2008 onwards and they fell for this Baba... it is unbelievable and shocking.  This am writing in a nutshell as am at work on my break so not lengthy but it deserves a great length.  Especially the family in question, who shed light on youngsters about Sikhi 20 plus years!! 
    • Giani Kulwant Singh Jawaddi Kalan uses simple Punjabi.
    • Leaving aside Guru ji, the general question of taking afeem (opium) in limited quantities for war/medical wounds is simply unproblematic. When you go to the hospital, they give you morphine. What do you think morphine is? It's an opiate. Even codeine (cough syrup) is an opiate! Ever had a cough? Granted, it is against Gurmat to take opium or other drugs for the fun of it.
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