Spirits, Curses And Superstitions

[randip singh]

which isn't much

155872[/snapback]

You know crazy I am willing to leave let things be but you clearly are not.

You have proved nothing but how much of an immature person you are. You have not proved there are ghosts. All you have proved is that you are not capable of debating in a civilised manner with a fellow Sikh. That is incredibly lame.

The footnote I have states:

All men are moulded from the same clay, but the potter has fashioned it into vessels of numerous forms.

Now does that mean we are all made of clay? or have we developed and learned over the years that Guruji knew that the common man could not understand the concept molecules, amino's, muscles etc and the only way he could describe it to us common folk was to describe it as clay.

Or are we actually made of clay Crayzy? Astound us with some new medical facts crazy as you claim to be wiser and cleverer than all of us on this forum. So are we made of clay as it states in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji?

Just answer this basic question before moving onto more complex subjects such as this? Astound us with your command of the English language?

156028[/snapback]

As I expected...no reply

[Khalsa Fauji]

Sant Kricho walley were the person who encouraged the building of the soho road gurdwara so there is bound to be some pictures.

156304[/snapback]

Gurfateh!!

Veer Ji, can u please elaborate on this ?? how can u say a person who suggested building a gurdwara has anything to do with putting pictures in it? im sorry but i dont quite see the link.

Bhul Chuk Maaf!

Gurfateh!!

[crayzy]

which isn't much

155872[/snapback]

You know crazy I am willing to leave let things be but you clearly are not.

You have proved nothing but how much of an immature person you are. You have not proved there are ghosts. All you have proved is that you are not capable of debating in a civilised manner with a fellow Sikh. That is incredibly lame.

The footnote I have states:

All men are moulded from the same clay, but the potter has fashioned it into vessels of numerous forms.

Now does that mean we are all made of clay? or have we developed and learned over the years that Guruji knew that the common man could not understand the concept molecules, amino's, muscles etc and the only way he could describe it to us common folk was to describe it as clay.

Or are we actually made of clay Crayzy? Astound us with some new medical facts crazy as you claim to be wiser and cleverer than all of us on this forum. So are we made of clay as it states in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji?

Just answer this basic question before moving onto more complex subjects such as this? Astound us with your command of the English language?

156028[/snapback]

As I expected...no reply

156677[/snapback]

i thought you were willing to let it go...i guess not

so what has this quote got to do with the thread?

did I say there were no metpahors in Gurbani?

no

I actually quoted this same shabad in another thread to show an example of a metaphor.

The other shabad about snakes, prostitutes and pret was not metaphorical, but as usual you avoid the subject and bring up non relevant examples.

You keep bringing up metaphorical shabads - no one is discussing the presence of metaphors, we are discussing th existence of pret. I have quoted a non metaphorical shabad, accept it if you want, don't if you don't.

I havent denied anything:

are metaphors used in Gurbani? - yes

do people live like pret? - yes

do pret exist? - yes, and Ive shown you a non metaphorical shabad to back it up.

you are the one that keeps saying pret don't exist. Show me where this is mentioned.

[randip singh]

i thought you were willing to let it go...i guess not

so what has this quote got to do with the thread?

did I say there were no metpahors in Gurbani?

no

I actually quoted this same shabad in another thread to show an example of a metaphor.

The other shabad about snakes, prostitutes and pret was not metaphorical, but as usual you avoid the subject and bring up non relevant examples.

You keep bringing up metaphorical shabads - no one is discussing the presence of metaphors, we are discussing th existence of pret. I have quoted a non metaphorical shabad, accept it if you want, don't if you don't.

I havent denied anything:

are metaphors used in Gurbani? - yes

do people live like pret? - yes

do pret exist? - yes, and Ive shown you a non metaphorical shabad to back it up.

you are the one that keeps saying pret don't exist. Show me where this is mentioned.

156726[/snapback]

Refering to :All men are moulded from the same clay, but the potter has fashioned it into vessels of numerous forms

The literal meaning would be that men are moulded of clay........however we know that Guruji is saying here all men are the same yes......?

So how do we know the ghost or pret is not a metaphor for something we don't understand? How can you be so sure that prets exist? I've observed in India people going to all sorts of Brahmins, Pundits, Jadoogars etc etc to try and remove prets and ghosts etc when really the problem is internally in that person. Surely you are encouraging such behaviour with your staments? Are you not leading Sikhs back to such superstition?

Also when people sometimes refer to someone as a snake, they mean they are very untrustworthy....how do we know that is not the meaning here? Also sometimes peoples are refered to as Prostitutes (very commonlyin Punjabi "Ruundee"), implying someone of loose morals..........how do we know that Guruji is not simply trying to make this point? In other words if they pursue a certain path, this is what they will be like?

PS I was willing to let it go but you wouldn't.........so I thought I'd question your understanding. :wub: . Also if youn want a serious debate...keep it clean friend.......remember...I'm here to learn too.

[crayzy]

double post

[crayzy]

So how do we know the ghost or pret is not a metaphor for something we don't understand?

from the tone of the shabad. The one about clay is clearly a metaphor, the one about reincarnation is not obviously a metaphor.

read it - it says will *come back/be reincarnated* as a prostitute etc not is ...

'remove a pret'??

remove it from where? pret is joun - you still have a hollywood idea of pret of possesion and them being evil.

In the suleman case he spoke inside the bod of manmohan singh because of manmohan singh's bad deeds in a past life directly against suleman - he was reaping his bad karm.

Leading them back to what superstition - why should they go to pandits etc, why not have an akhand paath, listen to the paath, participate in the seva and do an ardas for the pret.

Im not saying people dont fake it, go to pundits etc thats all besides the point.

but *do they exist*?

I have seen more than enough evidence to say they do.

Until you have Gurbani saying it doesnt, and a method of argument other than insulting records of such events then I hve no reason to give credbility to your argument.

remember...I'm here to learn too.

you said you're pretty old - I'm still studying, I only argue the way I'm used to on research papers, no intention to offend

[randip singh]

So how do we know the ghost or pret is not a metaphor for something we don't understand?

from the tone of the shabad. The one about clay is clearly a metaphor, the one about reincarnation is not obviously a metaphor.

read it - it says will *come back/be reincarnated* as a prostitute etc not is ...

156763[/snapback]

The tone of the other shabad is the same “All men are moulded from the same clay”.

See what I’m getting at?

'remove a pret'??

remove it from where? pret is joun - you still have a hollywood idea of pret of possesion and them being evil.

156763[/snapback]

You are mistaken if you think I am an avid watcher of Hollywod or Bollywood films. ……..give me Kurisawa any day.

Its what I have observed here and in India is that common people go to soothsayes and think “Bhoots, Prets, Ghosts” under one heading and talk about getting them exorcised. Pick up say “Asiana” magazine, and you will see adverts for such soothsayers.

I'm only relaying my observations.

In the suleman case he spoke inside the bod of manmohan singh because of manmohan singh's bad deeds in a past life directly against suleman - he was reaping his bad karm.

Leading them back to what superstition - why should they go to pandits etc, why not have an akhand paath, listen to the paath, participate in the seva and do an ardas for the pret.

156763[/snapback]

Could it not be that prets etc are maladies of the soul and meditation on Naam calms the soul and makes such phenomenen (which appear external), go away. Maybe in a way people see a Psychologist? (However Shabad and Paath works at a much much higher level than any Psychologist).

What do you think?

Im not saying people dont fake it, go to pundits etc thats all besides the point.

but *do they exist*?

I have seen more than enough evidence to say they do.

156763[/snapback]

In terms of evidence what type is this? Is this the evidence from this story? I had an Aunt once who was allegedly possessed and she would go into convulsions. She claimed she saw the ghost of an old woman who haunted her (who was a resident of our village in India). I spoke to some of our villagers about this old lady (who had died by then), and it transpired my Aunt was quite nasty to this woman when she was a child and teased her, and one day she died (of natural causes). Speaking to my Aunt about this (incidentally she is the same age as me), I asked her was it a Ghost or was it Guilt that was haunting her. She looked at me in a very strange way. Last I heard she does everything to help that old womans family in India (and miraculously she doesn’t have those episodes). For some they would say she was haunted by her ghost. I would say that she was haunted by her conscience. Guruji talks about the malady of the conscience (soul) and its manifestations at great length. In this case, selfless service has eased that malady and the burden on her soul.

Until you have Gurbani saying it doesnt, and a method of argument other than insulting records of such events then I hve no reason to give credbility to your argument.

156763[/snapback]

Ahh but that is the debate here. Is Gurbani saying that or is that your interpretation?

Again don’t start with the cheapshots about insulting Gurbani, because you have proved and disproved nothing.

remember...I'm here to learn too.

you said you're pretty old - I'm still studying, I only argue the way I'm used to on research papers, no intention to offend

156763[/snapback]

Well I went to Uni many moons ago and remember doing research which had to be based on sound reasoning and objective facts.

I still have to prepare reports and guidance on issues in my job. I still get challenged and usually always challenge others for their reasoning. This however, should not be an excuse of pulling the proverbial “insulting Bani” rabbit out of the hat. :wub:

[crayzy]

The tone of the other shabad is the same “All men are moulded from the same clay”.

See what I’m getting at?

no its still a metpahor =/

Its what I have observed here and in India is that common people go to soothsayes and think “Bhoots, Prets, Ghosts” under one heading and talk about getting them exorcised. Pick up say “Asiana” magazine, and you will see adverts for such soothsayers.

I'm only relaying my observations.

Im not saying this doesnt happen, but thats besides the point.

Could it not be that prets etc are maladies of the soul and meditation on Naam calms the soul and makes such phenomenen (which appear external), go away. Maybe in a way people see a Psychologist? (However Shabad and Paath works at a much much higher level than any Psychologist).

What do you think?

suleman spoke in 2 different people, the child born the family he agreed to go to could remember everything that had happened to him as related to sangat when he was a pret.

some people are crazy - I dont doubt it much. But pret talking in humans is the only way normal people see that side of existence. Otherwise if you become an anbhavi Gursikh in chauthey pad you'll be able to see pret as clearly as you see normal people today.

In terms of evidence what type is this? Is this the evidence from this story? ... In this case, selfless service has eased that malady and the burden on her soul.

the story, which has a recording, the backing of Mahapursh etc etc? yes

if seva eased the malady what makes you think it wasnt a pret that left her alone after she helped the family.

Ahh but that is the debate here. Is Gurbani saying that or is that your interpretation?

Again don’t start with the cheapshots about insulting Gurbani, because you have proved and disproved nothing.

nobody said you insulted gurbani - you were using insults as if they were a valid tool for discussion.

interpret it how you like, thats your choice. But my interpretation has the backing of all great Gursikhs in the recent past.

I still have to prepare reports and guidance on issues in my job. I still get challenged and usually always challenge others for their reasoning. This however, should not be an excuse of pulling the proverbial “insulting Bani” rabbit out of the hat. :wub:

nobody said you did this

[randip singh]

The tone of the other shabad is the same “All men are moulded from the same clay”.

See what I’m getting at?

no its still a metpahor =/

Its what I have observed here and in India is that common people go to soothsayes and think “Bhoots, Prets, Ghosts” under one heading and talk about getting them exorcised. Pick up say “Asiana” magazine, and you will see adverts for such soothsayers.

I'm only relaying my observations.

Im not saying this doesnt happen, but thats besides the point.

Could it not be that prets etc are maladies of the soul and meditation on Naam calms the soul and makes such phenomenen (which appear external), go away. Maybe in a way people see a Psychologist? (However Shabad and Paath works at a much much higher level than any Psychologist).

What do you think?

suleman spoke in 2 different people, the child born the family he agreed to go to could remember everything that had happened to him as related to sangat when he was a pret.

some people are crazy - I dont doubt it much. But pret talking in humans is the only way normal people see that side of existence. Otherwise if you become an anbhavi Gursikh in chauthey pad you'll be able to see pret as clearly as you see normal people today.

In terms of evidence what type is this? Is this the evidence from this story? ... In this case, selfless service has eased that malady and the burden on her soul.

the story, which has a recording, the backing of Mahapursh etc etc? yes

if seva eased the malady what makes you think it wasnt a pret that left her alone after she helped the family.

Ahh but that is the debate here. Is Gurbani saying that or is that your interpretation?

Again don’t start with the cheapshots about insulting Gurbani, because you have proved and disproved nothing.

nobody said you insulted gurbani - you were using insults as if they were a valid tool for discussion.

interpret it how you like, thats your choice. But my interpretation has the backing of all great Gursikhs in the recent past.

I still have to prepare reports and guidance on issues in my job. I still get challenged and usually always challenge others for their reasoning. This however, should not be an excuse of pulling the proverbial “insulting Bani” rabbit out of the hat. :wub:

nobody said you did this

156919[/snapback]

One man's metaphor is another man's fact!

I don't think you will see Bani from any other point of view (apart from your Sant's view)........and I don't think our points of view can be reconcilled.

As for insults, I still see Prets, Ghosts etc in the realm of the Tooth Fairy.......it is a " load of cobblers" (to quote an old East End saying)........btw this was meant to be humerous rather than an insult....hence the smiley face.....

....I have seen nothing in any of these stories to convince me of this phenomenen.........however, I do conceded that Gurmooks do have much higher perception than the ordinary man and can pick up things with their minds we cannot hope to understand in a lifetime.

....and I too have spoken to Gursikhs who do not share your point of view.

As for my Aunt's story I was offering two sides of the story. The superstitious side which would believe in ghosts, or what has been relaid to me as an affliction of conscience or the soul that is remedied through Bani.

I still think (and know from experience), belief in such curses and possesion will lead you to a dead end, wheras belief in a higher power and realisation of the God within you will take you away from this and look at problems in a calm and rational manner.

There will always be problems we cannot solve or understand, but that does not mean we should not have the courage to solve them.

Best Wishes Friend on Your Journey.

[crayzy]

I still think (and know from experience), belief in such curses and possesion will lead you to a dead end, wheras belief in a higher power and realisation of the God within you will take you away from this and look at problems in a calm and rational manner.

well

they are not mutually exclusive - the trick is knowing the difference between true and false, which with Gurprasad we amy get one day.

plenty of times people turn up to Mahaprush talking about pret then get told 'kuch nahi haiga'

other times people sit there and as soon as Mahaprush does namaskar pret starts speaking from inside.

Some people who through paath can see the journey theyve been on before reaching this life have recounted their experiences

You still dont acknowledge that these pret are mostly looking for forgiveness and naam like the rest of us.

At the end of the day its non consequential, but if ever you see something bear in mind that there could be a reason; and handing ourself in to a crazy house may not be the right thing to do.

=p