Bhagat Ravidass / Guru Ravidass?

[apnepart2]

dhan bhagat ravidass.

[JagjeetSingh555]

Author: A Singh

Date: 03-31-06 03:14

VaheguruJiKaKhalsa! VaheguruJiKiFateh!

Ramgarhia Gurdvaras, Ravidasia Gurdvaras, Bhatra Gurdvaras Balmiki Asthaans are all the result of similar socio-political factors.

If we stick with the last 100 year or so, in 1901 the British passed the Punjab Land Alienation Act which in a nutshell restricted land ownership to agricultural classes – in other words to Jatts – the boasts of landownership and zamindars etc actually originates from this British influenced act.

There are various political reasons as to why the Act was passed, however the biggest impact it had was upon the Tarkhans, Lohars and other artisan communities during its initial phasing, as these communities had over the previous 200 years seen considerable upwards mobility, enhanced particularly by the likes of Sardar Jassa Singh Ramgarhia (hence the adoption of the title Ramgarhia subsequently by all Artisan Sikhs) and now stood to loose large portion of their acquired economic success as a result of this politically motivated Act.

The result was similar to what happened post-partition with the influx of largely Khatri and Arora Sikh families into Punjab who fared a similar disadvantage and in some cases in animosity from their Jatt counterparts, who now enjoyed the fruits of the Land Act. In short, these communities migrated to Delhi and set themselves up as successful traders in various areas of commerce – hence why during the 1984 riots, many of the prejudices that the attacking mobs held against Sikhs in Delhi was their apparent economic success and wealth (and likewise to that in Punjab – views to the effect that “when have you seen a Sikh begging in the street – never” soon turned into “what reason do they have to complain about problems, they are all well off “ in the hands of the politically charged Hindu right).

Back to the Artisan communites , they also migrated away from Punjab and congregating collectively as Ramgarhias, migrated in large numbers to East Africa and once more established their socio-economic success. They were subsequently uprooted and settled predominantly in the UK where they were perhaps the first community of Sikh settlers (perhaps before them only remote Bhatra groups) who did not cut their Kesh and remove their turbans upon entry into the UK on the pretence of finding work and “fitting in” as early, largely Jatt communities had done.

The end result of all of this was that the so-called scheduled castes or communities (in Punjabi, Churas, Chamars etc) suffered greatly as a result of the Land Act, who now were forced to live on the outskirts of villages and have any rights to land ownership that they may have earned stripped from them. The impact of this can still be seen to this day with some the treatment meted out these communities in various Punjab villages.

As a result, the Chamar community, congregated itself around the writings of Bhagat Ravidas, also of similar origin and begun to revere him as Guru Ravidas – this was quite different from the parallel Ramgarhia or Bhatra Gurdvaras which only used the titles to denote the management of the Gurdvaras, however in practice held firm to common Sikh belief and practice in most cases. The “Guru Ravidas Gurdvara” however came to be a mixed movement of Keshadhari Sikhs and predominantly clean shaven Sikhs (in many respects similar to many global Jatt settlements) however whilst retaining the Guru Granth Sahib as their central axis, they replaced the Kesri Nishan Sahib with a Bhagwa coloured one, similar to Nirmalas with the inscription “Har” or “So Hung”.

In latter years as tensions between the Ravidasia or “Aad Dharmi” community and others persisted, attempts were made to establish a new scripture consisting solely of the writings of Bhagat Ravi Das (this was called “Guru Sikhia Sahib”) – some Amritdhari Sikhs within this community protested and a further split occurred, one who retained the Guru Ravidas Gurdvara title and in practice were largely similar to most other Sikh Gurdvaras, another begun to establish long more partisan lines. Over time a third group emerged who reverted more to a Hindu practice and installed a murti of Bhagat Ravi Das.

The Balmikias comprised a community of so called ‘untouchable’ castes (chooras or achuuts). They pretty much immediately established their own asthaans along more Hindu lines and outraged many with their writings on the Balmiki Ramayana in which their claimed a whole manner of changes to the more popular Ramayan theme, namely that Sita was impregnated by Ravan and not Rama.

Insofar as present day Sikh practice is concerned, I personally believe we should be careful not to confuse the titles Ramgarhia, Ahluwalia, Bindravale, Ravidasia with caste per se and even terms such as Jatt, Tarkhan, Khatri, Arora, Chamar etc with caste as understood in the Hindu context, where the readings of scripture and spiritual practice are restricted on a caste basis – within Sikh, despite the existence of these various communities and whatever social tensions may arise from time to time, no one group is forbidden from participation in Sikh practices from reading or listening to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib, no one group is restricted from eating Langar, no one is prevented from offering their heads for the blessings of Amrit.

These communities and titles are pretty much here to stay, rather than fighting a loosing (and largely unnecessary battle) trying to destroy them, it would be far easier to focus on more involved community projects and seva – in most towns in the UK that I have visited for example, Vaisakhi Jor Melas and Nagar Kirtans are held via a combined effort from all Gurdvaras, further development along these lines will ensure progress in the direction that ultimately everyone has in their hearts.

Gur Fateh!

A Singh

from Tapoban.org

[NANAKSAR WALE]

when you read bani out of shri gurur granth sahib ji and the baghta di bani starts, it will actually say on the lines of "bhagta di bani ravidas ji ki..."

:rolleyes:

[Laadli Fauj]

^ROFL

argument done, can't believe no one brought that up before

[Jeevan]

Mista Singh please look up the history of the Sikh Light Infantry and then tell me if the Ravidassia Sikhs were not part of the Khalsa?

[swordsedge]

sikhs and sikh dalits and all other peoples are brothers and sisters. i cant see how any khalistani group would be linked since dalits make up a large proportion of those supporting these groups. they loved sant jarnail singh because he was a man of the people, and a leader of the rural common folk. some anti-sikh forces are trying to drive a wedge and create hatred between members of the sikh community.

KZF has totally denied involvement - they are being fitted up !!

Akash radio and Associated press first leaked this story - clearly they should have verified the authenticity of the "email" befor leaking it to worldwide press. will they now apologise for this mistake?

the truth will only come out in many months by then Badal and the anti-sikh forces will brand all sikhs negatively and turn the attention away from 25th anniversary of operation bluestar which badal helped take place.

i was born in chamar family but am now immortal thanks to Guru Gobind Singh ji. now i want to hear an apology from those making wild unproven accusations. KZF has totally denied any involvement and has said chamars and other sikhs are brothers and sisters.

this is an internal issue in chamar community. people like me who have left their chamar status and follow Guru Granth Sahib and believe they are Sikh are rising up against this fake human guru. we have been trying to prevent the dehdhair followers from gaining control in bhawan elections because when they get control of the temple they start doing beadbi and human worship and anti-sikh speeches.

we need your support to kick these dehdhari followers out of our temples so sangat can have peace.

[Guest jason12]

Bhagat Ravidas Ji is respected as Bhagat and every Sikh who follows Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, calls him Bhagat rest is political propaganda on the basis of caste by Dalit community. They have no understanding of Bhagat Ravidas Ji's bani recorded in Sri Guru Granth Sahib to begin with. Bhagat Ravidas Ji preached "Begum –Pura" philosophy where there is no hate or propaganda and people were living in harmony and Dalit propaganda starts with hate hence against his views.

Yeah, I am sure you understand it all....

[kuthaman]

Bhagat Ravidas Ji is respected as Bhagat and every Sikh who follows Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, calls him Bhagat rest is political propaganda on the basis of caste by Dalit community. They have no understanding of Bhagat Ravidas Ji's bani recorded in Sri Guru Granth Sahib to begin with. Bhagat Ravidas Ji preached "Begum –Pura" philosophy where there is no hate or propaganda and people were living in harmony and Dalit propaganda starts with hate hence against his views.

Yeah, I am sure you understand it all....

I am sure a few Sikhs do, but I know you have failed to understand the message of Guru Ravidas. THe offensive you have launched is your way of dealing with the loss of Sant Ramanand. Instead of spreading hate, preach love and brotherhood.

[Indysinghj]

Would like to say there is no difference between bhagat or guru, only that guru has more sangat or following. The main point we should emphasise on is that they both show us the path to the almighty Waheguru. Guru Nanak Dev Ji travelled to meet Guru Ravidas Ji and hypothetically best of friends. Guru Nanak Dev Ji took Guru Ravidas Ji's Bani which eventually was compiled into the Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I don't know why we get into useless debates regarding status or hierarchy.

Majority of Guru Ravidas Gurdwara do follow the Khalsa Panth, the Gurdwara that dont are Ravidassis who have a separate agenda. We should try to separate these two religions. Guru Ravidas Sikh Temples follow the Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Ravidassis follow the Amrit Bani. We first need to understand this before we put the whole chamar community under one basket.

Sikhs from so called low castes i.e Chamar have contributed to sikhism, Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Khalsa Army, the 40 Singhs from Chamkaur Battle. Sikhs from Chamar Caste i.e Bhai Sangat Singh, Bhai Madan Singh & Bhai Jivan Singh each who had sons and brothers which all were by the side of Guru Gobind Singh. They all became shaheeds for us. Bhai Sangat Singh Ji was identical in appearance to Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

In 1984 attack of the Golden Temple it was a chamar sikh who took revenge i.e Shaheed Beant Singh Khalsa, the list could carry on but are these people mentioned today. Sacrifices they made for us sikhs and to keep sikhism alive.

We need to stop getting into castes because it is a hindu belief and way of life, we as sikhs should not follow these rituals. We are all equal in front of Waheguru, do we think we are better and are more right than god. We are just humans who are trapped in all the evils which our gurus came to free us from. We these days bring politics and our opinions into religion, thats why sikhism is translated the way it suits us but not the way it should be.

Lets all be proud sikhs and try to unite as sikh brother and sisters. Gurus have tried their best to free us from all this status, hierarchy of caste systems, rich & poor.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh

[punjabking]

Majority of Guru Ravidas Gurdwara do follow the Khalsa Panth, the Gurdwara that dont are Ravidassis who have a separate agenda. We should try to separate these two religions. Guru Ravidas Sikh Temples follow the Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Ravidassis follow the Amrit Bani. We first need to understand this before we put the whole chamar community under one basket.

I think you will find the majority of Ravidassia temples do not follow the khalsa panth or the rehet maryarda. If you ever seen these places they have some next symbol up instead of the khanda on the flags outside.

Why should we try separate this community? You cant call these temples Guru Ravidass 'sikh' temples as the sangat is not 'sikh', most have hindu sounding names/surnames. Also saying Guru Ravidass is incorrect as we sikhs beleive he was not a guru - he is bhagat. You sound like a choora/chamar indysinghj are you? - dont try changing sikhism! These Ravidassia are not sikh by their actions, ways and how they worship. Its people like you who are polluting our belief. If your choora/chamar then to become a sikh you must reject these temples and go to a proper sikh temple and do things the right way - but I warn you that we will not accept any nonsense like you been talking.

The only advantages I can think off if we do split this community is that then the temples can come under our control - donations from the ravidassia sangat can raise more finances for us sikhs, the land of their temples would boost our assets. We can audit them every so often to make sure they are doing things right etc.