'dharamraja'

[Shaolinsingh]

Dear Brothers & sisters,

Fateh araj karo ji - Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Siri Waheguru Ji ki Fateh.

I was wondering whether any one had any thoughts on the term 'Dharamraj' used in Gurbani.

Is this an actual 'physical being' or is this a metaphor the Guru Sahibs used to explain things?

Thanks

Satinder Singh

[One Man Army]

as far as i know dharamraaj is a servent of God who is put in place to give sentences to people who havent lived in God centred life... n he is an actual being

[Lion(LK)King]

I've been thinking about that quite a lot as well, and although I havn't made any fixed opinion, it is plausible that Dharm Raj is a metaphor used in Gurbani (I believe it's roots can be found in Vedic literature)

[Mehtab Singh]

Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Ji has said in Undithi Duniya that Gurbani is not mere poetry written by a human being. All the descriptions are facts and no metaphors are used to scare or mislead us.

[Jai Tegang!]

Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Ji has said in Undithi Duniya that Gurbani is not mere poetry written by a human being. All the descriptions are facts and no metaphors are used to scare or mislead us.

156405[/snapback]

totally agree :wub:

[Lion(LK)King]

Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Ji has said in Undithi Duniya that Gurbani is not mere poetry written by a human being. All the descriptions are facts and no metaphors are used to scare or mislead us.

156405[/snapback]

So is the human body made out of clay?

Randip Signh in the other thread quoted a lien from Gurbani saying that the potter has made the pottery (us) out of the same clay, i.e. without distinction of caste, creed etc. That's a perfect example of a metaphor. I, in that case disagree with him that Gurbani doesn't include metaphors, since Gurbani includes many metaphors. (if I understood what you said, He said that there are NO Metaphors, but if I misunderstood you, and you meant no metaphors in the description on afterlife, then i do not have any response).

I do not have any opinion on dharm raj being metaphor or not at the moment

[crayzy]

So is the human body made out of clay?

Randip Signh in the other thread quoted a lien from Gurbani saying that the potter has made the pottery (us) out of the same clay, i.e. without distinction of caste, creed etc. That's a perfect example of a metaphor.

eyko pvxu mwtI sB eykw sB eykw joiq sbweIAw ]

eaeko pavan maattee sabh eaekaa sabh eaekaa joth sabaaeeaa ||

There is only one breath; all are made of the same clay; the light within all is the same.

If yo read the Gurmukhi you'll see that it could be translated as all are of the same mould, rather than of the same clay. Be careful with transaltions

Besides, its usually obvious when a metpahor is used, coz the meaning doesnt cahge eevn if it is taken literally. The point of the shabad is to show that no one is better than anyone else coz of ohysical/worldyly details - the meaning would hold whether taken literally or metaphorically.

but look at these shabads

Drmrwie no AwiKEnu sBnw dI kr bMd KlwsI]

dhharamaraae no aakhioun sabhanaa dhee kar ba(n)dh khalaasee||

He asked the god of death, Dharamrai, to relieve all their suffering.

and

iqs no johih dUq Drmrwie ]1]

this no johehi dhooth dhharamaraae ||1||

The messengers of the Righteous Judge of Dharma shall hunt them down. ||1||

If you want to read the rest etc just copy paste the line into sikhitothemax and itll find it for you.

[Lion(LK)King]

So is the human body made out of clay?

Randip Signh in the other thread quoted a lien from Gurbani saying that the potter has made the pottery (us) out of the same clay, i.e. without distinction of caste, creed etc. That's a perfect example of a metaphor.

eyko pvxu mwtI sB eykw sB eykw joiq sbweIAw ]

eaeko pavan maattee sabh eaekaa sabh eaekaa joth sabaaeeaa ||

There is only one breath; all are made of the same clay; the light within all is the same.

If yo read the Gurmukhi you'll see that it could be translated as all are of the same mould, rather than of the same clay. Be careful with transaltions

Besides, its usually obvious when a metpahor is used, coz the meaning doesnt cahge eevn if it is taken literally. The point of the shabad is to show that no one is better than anyone else coz of ohysical/worldyly details - the meaning would hold whether taken literally or metaphorically.

but look at these shabads

Drmrwie no AwiKEnu sBnw dI kr bMd KlwsI]

dhharamaraae no aakhioun sabhanaa dhee kar ba(n)dh khalaasee||

He asked the god of death, Dharamrai, to relieve all their suffering.

and

iqs no johih dUq Drmrwie ]1]

this no johehi dhooth dhharamaraae ||1||

The messengers of the Righteous Judge of Dharma shall hunt them down. ||1||

If you want to read the rest etc just copy paste the line into sikhitothemax and itll find it for you.

156455[/snapback]

1- THe point being that metaphors are indeed used in Gurbani. As a matter of facts Gurbani uses MANY MANY.

Just read the aarti.

The sky is a plate

Sun and moon are lamps

How scientific is that? Gurbani at that place, was never meant to be scientifi, but Gurbani was metaphorically, making a point. That is my point. Please forgive me for relying on the english translation though (using clay instead of mould)

As for Dharm Raj. There are many references in Gurbani of Dharmraj (or Jamdhoots) draging u with your kes:

ਪਕਰਿ ਕੇਸ ਜਮਿ ਉਠਾਰਿਓ ਤਦ ਹੀ ਘਰਿ ਜਾਵੈ ॥੧॥

pakar kays jam uthaari-o tad hee ghar jaavai. ||1||

Seizing him by the hair, the Messenger of Death pulls him up; then, he comes to his senses. ||1||

Ang 408

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.g...id=18717#l18717

ਮਮ ਸਰ ਮੂਇ ਅਜਰਾਈਲ ਗਿਰਫਤਹ ਦਿਲ ਹੇਚਿ ਨ ਦਾਨੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

mam sar moo-ay ajraa-eel girafteh dil haych na daanee. ||1|| rahaa-o.

Azraa-eel, the Messenger of Death, has caught me by the hair on my head, and yet, I do not know it at all in my mind. ||1||Pause||

ang 721

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.g...id=31025#l31025

ਜਾ ਜਮੁ ਧਾਇ ਕੇਸ ਗਹਿ ਮਾਰੈ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਮੁਖਿ ਕਾਲ ਗਇਆ ॥੩॥

jaa jam Dhaa-ay kays geh maarai surat nahee mukh kaal ga-i-aa. ||3||

When the Messenger of Death grabs you by your hair, you will be punished. You are unconscious, and have fallen into Death's mouth. ||3||

Ang 906

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.g...id=38918#l38918

Which hair are these? As far as I'm aware, the physical hair isn't going with you since it's the atma, the jyot that will be going out of the body, and not the whole body (unless you're Guru Nanak Dev Ji where your body mysterically dissappears)

Please let me knwo if the above are also to be taken literally, that the Jam /Dharm Rai will be dragging you with your kes. And what if you're bald, or have a disease which makes no hair come - will the 'messenger of death' not drag you then?

Just a few things to ponder upon.

As I said, I don't have a fixed opinion, and Dharm Rai might just be a literal judge waiting there for me to come and show me what notes 'Chitr and Gupt' have take on my life so far. But I'm not very sure. And Niether do I think it's sometihng we should be wasting life times discussing about either. But we need to be aware that there are many metaphors, and thus not everything should and could be taken literally.

Bhull Chukk maaf

Bhull chukk maaf

[The Khalsa Fauj]

Dharamraaj is a metaphor. Gurbani uses a high number of metaphors and expressions.

Guru Ji used these to explain that God is important to the locals. Guru Ji also uses Ajraael, chittar-gupt, heaven, hell, yougs, shivpuri, brahmpuri, chaurassi or lukh chaurasi, angels, paarjaat, kaamdhain gaouuu, and many other expressions and metaphors to explain to the common people.

E.g. Guru Ji used things related to farms to talk God with farmers.

Gurmat philosophy is 1 Oankaar. What is point of praising Akaal if there is dharamraaj, should be praising dharamraaj then because you don't want him to screw you up since he is going to judge. Chittar-gupt also need to be worshipped then else they might write the wrong account and you won't be judged fairly.

As for Bhai Randhir Singh, he lived in the old days where there weren't many resources available to study Gurbani. He lived in a time when Punjabi wasn't even taught in schools or anywhere.

Only certain special places taught it. This could be the reason why he took metaphors as facts.

Still, a lot of our pracharaks do that. We need to think better and spend more time studying Gurbani so the future generation don't run into controvrsy.

[The Khalsa Fauj]

So is the human body made out of clay?

Randip Signh in the other thread quoted a lien from Gurbani saying that the potter has made the pottery (us) out of the same clay, i.e. without distinction of caste, creed etc. That's a perfect example of a metaphor.

eyko pvxu mwtI sB eykw sB eykw joiq sbweIAw ]

eaeko pavan maattee sabh eaekaa sabh eaekaa joth sabaaeeaa ||

There is only one breath; all are made of the same clay; the light within all is the same.

If yo read the Gurmukhi you'll see that it could be translated as all are of the same mould, rather than of the same clay. Be careful with transaltions

Besides, its usually obvious when a metpahor is used, coz the meaning doesnt cahge eevn if it is taken literally. The point of the shabad is to show that no one is better than anyone else coz of ohysical/worldyly details - the meaning would hold whether taken literally or metaphorically.

but look at these shabads

Drmrwie no AwiKEnu sBnw dI kr bMd KlwsI]

dhharamaraae no aakhioun sabhanaa dhee kar ba(n)dh khalaasee||

He asked the god of death, Dharamrai, to relieve all their suffering.

and

iqs no johih dUq Drmrwie ]1]

this no johehi dhooth dhharamaraae ||1||

The messengers of the Righteous Judge of Dharma shall hunt them down. ||1||

If you want to read the rest etc just copy paste the line into sikhitothemax and itll find it for you.

156455[/snapback]

1- THe point being that metaphors are indeed used in Gurbani. As a matter of facts Gurbani uses MANY MANY.

Just read the aarti.

The sky is a plate

Sun and moon are lamps

How scientific is that? Gurbani at that place, was never meant to be scientifi, but Gurbani was metaphorically, making a point. That is my point. Please forgive me for relying on the english translation though (using clay instead of mould)

As for Dharm Raj. There are many references in Gurbani of Dharmraj (or Jamdhoots) draging u with your kes:

ਪਕਰਿ ਕੇਸ ਜਮਿ ਉਠਾਰਿਓ ਤਦ ਹੀ ਘਰਿ ਜਾਵੈ ॥੧॥

pakar kays jam uthaari-o tad hee ghar jaavai. ||1||

Seizing him by the hair, the Messenger of Death pulls him up; then, he comes to his senses. ||1||

Ang 408

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.g...id=18717#l18717

ਮਮ ਸਰ ਮੂਇ ਅਜਰਾਈਲ ਗਿਰਫਤਹ ਦਿਲ ਹੇਚਿ ਨ ਦਾਨੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

mam sar moo-ay ajraa-eel girafteh dil haych na daanee. ||1|| rahaa-o.

Azraa-eel, the Messenger of Death, has caught me by the hair on my head, and yet, I do not know it at all in my mind. ||1||Pause||

ang 721

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.g...id=31025#l31025

ਜਾ ਜਮੁ ਧਾਇ ਕੇਸ ਗਹਿ ਮਾਰੈ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਮੁਖਿ ਕਾਲ ਗਇਆ ॥੩॥

jaa jam Dhaa-ay kays geh maarai surat nahee mukh kaal ga-i-aa. ||3||

When the Messenger of Death grabs you by your hair, you will be punished. You are unconscious, and have fallen into Death's mouth. ||3||

Ang 906

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.g...id=38918#l38918

Which hair are these? As far as I'm aware, the physical hair isn't going with you since it's the atma, the jyot that will be going out of the body, and not the whole body (unless you're Guru Nanak Dev Ji where your body mysterically dissappears)

Please let me knwo if the above are also to be taken literally, that the Jam /Dharm Rai will be dragging you with your kes. And what if you're bald, or have a disease which makes no hair come - will the 'messenger of death' not drag you then?

Just a few things to ponder upon.

As I said, I don't have a fixed opinion, and Dharm Rai might just be a literal judge waiting there for me to come and show me what notes 'Chitr and Gupt' have take on my life so far. But I'm not very sure. And Niether do I think it's sometihng we should be wasting life times discussing about either. But we need to be aware that there are many metaphors, and thus not everything should and could be taken literally.

Bhull Chukk maaf

Bhull chukk maaf

156463[/snapback]