DO we hate Hindus????

[Guest learner singh]

shere e punjab

SO BECAUSE THE HINDOOS CAN DISCRIMINATE WE SHOULD'NT DEMAND OUR RITES??

REMEMBER........KHALISTAN IS GONNA BE A GOD SEND FOR HINDOOZ ALSO, FOR ONCE EQUALITY WILL RAIN.!

AND REMEMBER IT DOES'NT MATTE RIF U LIKE POLITICS MIXING WITH RELIGION

MIRI=RELIGOUS POWER

PIRI=POLITICAL POWER

MIRI CANNOT COME WITHOUT PIRI AND VICE VERSA :D

DHUN DHUN DHUN SACHAYE PATHSHA SAT-GURU SIRI GURU HAR GOBIND MAHARAAAJ

I don't want to write two pages of post to make it clear for everyone here. Here is the intelligent analysis by Vikramjit singh and I liked his points. Read below and let me know if this Singh makes sense? im cutting pasting for all of you.

I have been wanting to write a little bit about the Khalistan issue on this thread, but have been unable to do so due to lack of time. I am sorry to interject at the <admin-profanity filter activated> end of this discussion but I hope that I can a add a bit to it with my personal viewpoint and experience.

The Khalistan issue invokes powerful emotions in all of us, irrespective of our worldview. At a certain point of history (1984 and for some years after that), a majority of the Sikhs around

the world (both in India and abroad) supported the idea in one way or the other, irrespective of whether they were vocal about it or not.

However with time support for the concept of Khalistan waned. It is true that amongst the Indian Sikhs it has little or no support. Many Indian Sikhs speak of the Khalistanis with contempt, sometimes with a greater verocity then that they hold for the Congress,BJP or RSS. I personally feel that this is due to many reasons. One reason is a feeling of being let down with the Khalistanis themselves. I personally fall into this group. If you study the history of any political movement anywhere in the world, you will see that the success depends considerably on the quality and vision of the leadership. The Khalistanis failed miserably in this regard. The French revolution, thhe Russian revolution, American Independence, and even the Indian Independence struggle were led by intellectual individuals of capabilty, vision and courage. The writings of Rousseau, the American Declaration of Independence by Thomas Jefferson, a statesman figure like Nelson Mandela, the spiritual calmness of the Dalai Lama, and many more have left an uneraseable effect on the success of these movements and continue to inspire many people around the world even today.

The Khalistanis failed to produce leaders with vision who could inspire and motivate a population. Many of the leaders are extremely controversial, even though they may declare themselves "Presidents" or "Defense Ministers", they lack the credibilty to mingle with other heads of states to enforce upon them their viewpoints, and instead have at times gone on record for putting a bounty on Indira Gandhis head after Operation Bluestar, and calling on all Sikh women to have more babies so as to increase Sikh numbers. Statements such as these do not reflect that of a statesman.

Another issue is the fear that a majority of the Sikhs have about the creation of Khalistan. If any of you remember, militants in Punj

ab had in the late 80's issued an edict on social reforms. Many of these reforms were needed, such as usage of drugs amongst youth and dowry demands on the families of brides. These social reforms were enforced under the power of the gun and non conformants were shot dead. Also under this set of social laws were rules against cutting of hair, clothes worn by women and smoking of cigarrettes. A Sikh who cut his hair was liable to be shot. Sikh women who wore western attire were threatened. Even though most Sikhs do not doubt the relevance of Kesh in being defined a Sikh, the question that arises in many Sikh minds including my own, is that does that imply that all Sikhs have to keep there hair under the threat of being killed? Would a state of Khalistan execute any Sikh who cut his hair. The scene of Keshdaari Sikhs in Chandigarh and other cities of Punjab, standing with Kirpans outside colleges and institutions and chasing away females in jeans,skirts or saris still haunts many a progressive mind. Who is to provide assurity that a state of Khalistan would not be a theocratic state that would enforce a strict code of conduct on its citizens. Are we not reminded of the dark ages of Europe when the church enforced similar rules as per their own narrow interpretations of Christs teachings? Have we not in our own lifetimes witnessed the Taliban and the stories we hear about them?

Who in the Khalistan leadership is there to provide the assurity of a quality nation where people irrepective of their beliefs have the right to grow and develop, and experience their own personal freedom? Even if there were such a leader how will he convince the masses that he would enable the creation of strong judicial and governmental systems to provide stability and security? In 1947 when Jinnah offered an autonomous Sikh homeland within the confines of Pakistan if they agreed to join with him, Master Tara Singh turned downed his offer on similar grounds. He told him that he trusted a statesman and individual of the quality of

Jinnah, but had no assurances about what would happen after Jinnah. The death of democracy in Pakistan provides credibility to the decision made by him at the time.

Many Sikhs in India have come to learn that irrespective of the weaknesses of the Indian nation, it provides them with a platform to grow in the world. Yes the Sikhs should never forget the massacres of the 80's, and the broken promises. Many of them see the same struggle in the Dalits and the Muslims. They are part of a society that has a free and liberal press that condemned the Gujarat riots, that speak about the evils of Hindu fundamentalism and even spoke about the crimes of the post Indira Gandhi massacres when the government of India was imposing a news blackout. It is upto the Sikhs to take advantage of the platform that an Indian nation provides them to grow and perhaps one day turn the situation to their own advantage. No one doubts the lack of justice and the broken promises. Ask any poker player if he should cry about the cards dealt to him. Instead he trys to do the best with what he has.

There is definitely a very large divide emerging between Indian Sikhs and Western Sikhs. I personally feel that the Western Sikhs who immigrated during the 80's or were born here have not been able to experience the closure that most Indian Sikhs experienced in the 90's. In fact you will find very little Khalistani support amongst the Sikhs who came to the west during the high tech waves of the 90's. Primarily because they understand the situation in India much better then the western Sikhs who are somewhat out of touch and at times extrememly dismayed by the lack of Khalistani support amongst Sikhs by and large.

I personally in the past have expressed my opinions about India. I perhaps will never forgive India for what it did to the Sikhs way back in the 80's. But at the same time I will not deny that as much as I try to assimilate in the US, my heart will always be "sub-continental". The Sikhs are an

inherent part of the Indian sub-continent and can play a major role in the growth of the intersts of the people of that region, both in the spiritualistic and material realms. Another international border manned by over armed armies is not in the human interst of the people of the region. Perhaps one day the ones that do exist may disappear, however lame and idealistic it may sound. 12 million people lost their homes in 1947, and 2 million died. What would have been the cost of another 1947? Can any of us really provide assurity that such a "batwara" would have been bloodless? I personally find it hard to believe...

Please forgive me if I unknowingly offended anyone with my views.

Vikram Singh

Massachusetts USA

[Deep Singh]

Learner Singh....yes it makes sense...my family has lived in the West since 80s, but i came i 90s... :D )

[Sher-e-Punjab]

Learner:

Sat sri akal,

I think that Vikram Singhs post was EXCELLENT.

I agree with it on so many levels. I am not a turban wearing Sikh, however I too feel their is quite a big difference from Punjabis and the rest of the population, i too feel that the government is inadequate and corrupt... however i feel that it is still better to go into the India fold.

Had this been pre partition time, when Punjab was more than twice as big, then we may have been our own country. Punjab was powerful, and wealthy. Now Punjab is relatively wealthy and powerful, but in my honest opinion, we are not sufficient to be our own, esp. with a hostile neighbor.

the indian govt. is horribly corrupt, and as vikram pointed out, the repression has not been confined to sikhs, but hindus, and muslims as well. it is more a problem of have's vs. have nots in my opinion, than hindus vs. sikhs or hindus vs. muslims.

For example, i think the Akali Dal has been very corrupt in Punjab - yet they are supposed to be a 'Sikh' party. They are aligned with the BJP, that is aligned with Hindu fundamentalist organizations.

India is a complex soup, very diverse, and very different. Its great to have means, and it sucks when you're poor, but I hope it continues to chug along. I just hope that the corruption ends, and the partisan/communal politics ends.

rub rakha.

[Sarbloh Soulja]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

not all hindoos r 2 blame though, most r scared of us singhz/singhneez, they will do wat we say, like 1 round my end. they r like sheeps man. :nihungsmile:

[S1ngh]

Sikhs don't hate anyone (Period).. Don't judge the whole community by the actions of one or two singhs..

North Indian Hindus (some) are the only one who have problem with us.. If u go to south they all are cool with sikh and in fact they love us.. We lived couple of years in south part of india and we still have many friends from that side who actually really really respect Turban walley singhs..

So it's north indians who got beef with us.. and remember not everyone is like everybody..

[Guest mehtab]

As u all know, i am born to Hindu parents. now let me tell u my first hand experiences with some Hindus who just cant stand the fact that a boy born in a brahmin family (that would be me) is going into Sikhi.

During my first semester here in Oklahoma (fall 1998), there was this guy (brahmin) from Andhra Pradesh (south India) who had helped me a lot. One night there was a heated argument on khalistan. This dude says "indira gandhi was very kind in what she did (i.e operation bluestar). if i was in her place, i'd have sent the airforce and bombed the Golden Temple, so that atleast the terrorists were wiped out" :g :g . My prompt response to him was "well in that case if i was in place of Sant Bhindranwale, i wouldn't have spared a single Hindu in Punjab". Now i wasn't comfortable in giving him that answer. My own parents/family are Hindus who have never said/done anything against Sikhs/Sikhi. But that seemed the only rational answer to the garbage he was barking. Killing innocent people in the name of religion can never be a matter of pride. But i had to say what i said to make him realize how his comments had offended me, and to make him aware that if indira did what he thinks she should have, well, then Sant Bhindranwale would have done what i had remarked!

Now comin

g to spring 2001. this dude from delhi (originally a brahmin from UP) says he was an atheist. He had a problem that a fellow-brahmin (myself) was turning to another religion. More than once he had used blasphemous/derogatory/insulting terms for the Gurus (the last time he said trash was end of december 2002). i assured him that Sikhs had both meditation as well as the sword, and so unlike Buddhism (only philosophies that is), Sikhi will never be gone from India . The funny thing is that although i don't support khalistan a single bit, he fears that if there are another few like me, then perhaps khalistan will come eventually.

And last but not the least. Lemme tell u what i experienced 10 days back. another friend of mine (punjabi hindu khatri from delhi) says that not only operation bluestar, but also the killings of Sikhs in delhi after indira's assasination were justified. he goes "mithaiyaan vand de paye si...lokkaan ne keha na karo...prime minister is dead...nahi manne...eslei bhugatna peya" :g :g . The reason i didn't say much to him is coz this dude was breathing at full speed and i don't know how to handle a person suffering from a sudden heart attack (LOL).

But then again there are Hindus who regret what had happened and always put forward a hand of friendship. Some of them i heard also don't hesitate to apologize.

<

br>The ones to suffer the most are the ones STUCK IN THE MIDDLE like me. Can't see Sikhs oppressed, and can't see my already bleeding country cut into more pieces. :D @ :D @

[gurkiya_sakhiya]

in a message from akaal takht sahib, giani can't remember who singh ji, ex jathedar of akaal takht sahib said

"A SIKH IS NOT A SIKH UNLESS HE/SHE IS KHALISTANI"

waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh jio

it was Prof. Darshan Singh ji who said that

bhul chuk muaff karni

waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

Akal Sahai

[S1ngh]

So... We do have hatered in Indian community back in India..

What is the solution?

Give Punjab residents their Punjab back.. :D )

Let see :

Point 1 Take a brief look at our history of 200 yrs old... and You will see and you probably will accept that Punjab was never a part of india until 1947.

Point 2 Look at the size of Punjab before 1947? Pretty Big ehh.. From Afghanistan to Nepal (includes Kashmir). And look the size rite now? Is that Agreeable thing to do? (pls exclude pakistan, cauz it became another country). Can California eat a huge chunk of Oregon.. No right.. cauz There is self-respect and self-law and self-pride of oregon state govt. So dividing Punjab proves disrespect of the state Government and very much move like a dictatorship.. So.. by this residents of punjab (80% sikhs) would definately hate the ppls who did this.. and THOSE ppls who did this was the hindu leaders @ delhi..

So stuff like this goes on and on... Infinite.. there is no end.. U see school text books with anti-sikh materials and u see Punjab Huge river issue and so on... SO naturally that will spring the hatered withing the community of india.. Rite? so somehow i think that type of hate is ALL ok.. cauz it's for the justice.. BUT instead of fighting.. they should put their efforts on other stuff.. ANyway.. im blabbing... Hope i didn't offend anyone..

Rochak.. DOn't listen to anyone.. (ur skool mates..) At end it's all alone you..

[Guest mehtab]

i wanna point out another thing. this came as a shock to me. i heard that the namdharis (some refrain to include them as Sikhs) have been targetting Hindu girls, and marry them and convert them, similar to what muslims in UK have been blaimed for. this is another reason for the hostile relations between Sikhs n Hindus, as Hindus tend to believe namdharis as part of Sikhism. therefore i made it clear to the dude (UP wala brahmin) that namdharis are not considered part of Sikhi.

at the end of the day, i think its dirty politics and false propaganda that has poisoned people's minds against each other.

[Mkhalsa]

wow.. we sikhs are really lagging behind.. we gotta get goin with the conversions!! lets all go out and find a white girlfriend/boyfriend and get married (in case some of you dont get it, im being overly sarcastic)