Fools Who Continue To Wrangle

[randip singh]

Eating meat or not eating meat all depends on your avastha, it's defaniately not black and white issue as some premis claim to be.

I don't like to nit pick specific actions taken by mahapursh and start presenting it as maryada. I usually post sakhiya's of mahapursh which has all do with spiritual expereinces or some times post sakhiya's of their sipahi hood to get doubts out of all people mind.

My only intention to present baba attar singh ji sakhi with baba chet singh ji budda dal sakhi is to challenge common mindset sikh these days have- which is black and white sikhi. do and do not and judge everyone according to that. What they don't get is, there is always exceptional cases or grey area. Take meat issue for example, you will get people who are soo binded with meat issue either pro or against that they will judge other person or group only by that factor not according to avastha. Mahapursh who are fully veggie they don't do that, they judge others by avastha. I also try to follow same type of foot steps. I am veggie myself also acknowledge that meat does affect's learner(jagiaso sikh) spirituality- especially thoughts. But I also acknowledge that once you are in certain stage then eating meat or not eating meat does not effect's anything.Here is another one- Bhai Vir Singh Ji he himself mentioned in his book that when he was ill he had to eat meat for health reasons. will someone hold that against him and consider that as downfall in his bhagti? don't know.. depends on person's mindset if person is out of black and white sikhi then probably not, will not matter since we are not JAINS either.

Here is the sakhi:

This sakhi was told by a old nihang singh who was in nihang baba chet singh ji's time. It's between sant baba attar singh ji mustanewaley and sant baba chet singh ji budda dal.Sant baba attar singh ji mustaneywale went to sant baba chet singh ji budda dal. Baba Chet Singh ji ate meat with full maryada (full ishana of oneself, recitation of sri akaal ustat or chandi di //). Baba Chet Singh Ji was sitting on a manja just about to eat meat when sant baba attar singh ji arrived. He did not felt right to eat Meat alone so he offered some to Sant baba attar singh ji mustaneywaley. Sant baba attar singh ji being veggie accepted this notion and ate it by reciting this shabad: Gurparsad Bhram Ka Nash There were few chelas of baba attar singh ji mustaneywale who didn't understand this katuak of mahapursh and were shocked about this event and even to level to doubt their own mahapursh acts, but later they were given updesh that yes by eating meat it's somewhat effects person's spirituality but at the same time there are enough exceptional cases out there where eating meat does not effect their avasta. Their Avastha is sam(stable).

Hi Namstang,

You have made some very interesting and constructive points. Can I ask a few more about Avastha.

My understanding of Avastha is that it is a Vedic concept, and Avastha is essentially a balance. Is that your understanding?

I also understand there are different states of Avastha for different things. Eg the Brahmin's Avastha (as a thinker and politician), is different from a Kshatriya (a warrior and fighter), a Vaish (a trader and barterer), and a Shudra (worker, farmer ) etc. Is that your understanding?

A Sikh is called to be a Sant-Siphai (a warrior, a thinker, trader, worker, farmer) all rolled into one. What would be the best form of Avastha then for a Sant Siphahi?

Your thoughts would be appreciated as I would like to know more about this.

Thanks

[Lion(LK)King]

Our of curiosity...although it is irrelevant..completly irrelevant.. I was wondering if you have evidence to support your claim that all those Gurmukhs ate meat (The Khalsa Fauj)

Akali Kaur Singh, for example, as far as I'm aware stopped eating meat at a later point in his life...

I know it's irrelevant...but just out of courisity... I mean historians rarely mention the Shaheedi of Bhai Taru Singh (I believe even cunningham's book misses it out.. mite be wrong..)..so how can we be sure of his diet..

I can understand that Akali Phoola Singh, Jassa Singh Alhuwalia and Hari Singh Nalwa.. historians probably mentioned it...

But what is rhe evidence that the...or the Singh Sabha people.. ate it..

. what evidence do you have to back up the names provided...

Again, I know its irrelevant who ate meat and who didn't...just that considering how poorly our history is written.. it surprises me that you were able to provide names.....and information about their diet. Just out of curisoity......

Again hopefully you can provide contemporary references......and back up your statements..

Hi LK.......I don't think anyone attatched importance to what they ate.....thats why its not recorded by them. They ate too keep fit and strong and what their own conscience told them was Ok.

Hi Randip Singh,

Thats exactly what I meant. Since no importance was attahced to what they ate, or their diet.. it wouldn't be recorded.. so how can be bring up a bunch of names.. who's history is hardly recorded...would their diet be recorded?

If he's posted names.. they shoudl be substaniated. I know for sure tha atleast ONE of them did not eat meat (later on in life).. I cannot confirm about the rest..and I know it's irrelevant... it's just out of curiosity..how he can know about their diets

[randip singh]

Hi Randip Singh,

Thats exactly what I meant. Since no importance was attahced to what they ate, or their diet.. it wouldn't be recorded.. so how can be bring up a bunch of names.. who's history is hardly recorded...would their diet be recorded?

If he's posted names.. they shoudl be substaniated. I know for sure tha atleast ONE of them did not eat meat (later on in life).. I cannot confirm about the rest..and I know it's irrelevant... it's just out of curiosity..how he can know about their diets

No idea.

But this is the <admin-profanity filter activated> for tat one upmanship that occurs. Somone earlier started talking about all the Sants he believes in didn't eat meat. So someone else starts posting about all the Sants they believe in who did eat it.

Its the, my Dad is bigger than your dad mentality..................the reality is we have to look at our own conduct regardless of diet............and a quick glance at some of the comments here really says a lot............what they don't realise is that our Dad is all the same!

[randip singh]

*Shameless Bump* :D

[Hardeep__singh]

DHAN DHAN BABA ISHER SINGH JI MAHARAJ NANAKSAR WALEH PATHSHAH:

Sikh Gurus on Vegetarianism

"ATTHSATH THIRATH SAGAL PUN JEE DEYA PARVAN"

What you eat today will influence the way you think which in turn will influence the way you look ,which in turn will influence your future.Eat lovingly And you will be loved ,eat mercilessly and the world will not be compassionate towards you.

Vegetarianism is good but not all bodies are designed for vegetables,it all depend upon the shape of your teeth,but eating too much red meat, particularly cow’s meat will not only pollute you mentally ,but will disturb your electromagnetic energy giving you diseses like ‘Canser ,Allergies, Alzheimer’s disesses,pollution of the blood,stress &depression.Cow is a spiritually elevated animal.Ancient Rishes and Sages had the vision the realize this.If you crave meat,stay with lower consciousness animal till your consciousness grows,where you start respecting life.

According to the Auricvedic science the food have certain effect on the body spiritually,mentally & physically.below is a list on which food as what effect on the body.

Pungent foods nourish the lower chakras.

Aromatic foods nourish the higher chakras.

Food for the soul

Ghee (Indian Clarified Butter)

Water energized with Gurbani (prayers)

Prasad (food offered first to the lord)

Food for the mind

Yogurt

Sugar

Walnuts

Green Vegetables

Fruits (sweet)

Rice(Basmati)

Coconut

Food for the body

Milk

Proteins

Wheat, Corn, Barley etc.

Vegetables which grow under the earth

Lentis

Spices

Fruits(ciritic)

Food items you should avoid

Meat

Very old chocolate(can cause leukamia)

Eggs(can cause Ulsers, contribute to kidney&heart problems)

Now we shall discuss meat eating ,particularly eating beef .Cow protection is not only connected to hinduism but also sikhism.Although sikh dharma does not recommend on the worship of cow, but protecting the cow has always been the aim of earlier sikhs.

Those sikhs leaving in foreign countries do not know the sin they are doing when eating cow meat .If one looks towards the Guru , Guru forbids all type of meat. Due to their ignorance those Punjabi’s staying outside have started to eat all types of meat, and now sadly they have started to eat beef, and they come out with all kinds of reasons. Thanks to those so called high educated influenced by western culture have started to preach “it’s all right to eat any type of meat as long as it is jhatka”. Soon they might say “Oh you can eat human meat as long it is jhatka”. Now, it is time we study the importance of cow protection in Sikh dharma.

Now, lets look into the past.In the previous ages the entire bharat was vegetarien. When the kaljug started the rightness was attacked .With the arrivals if melishes and the yakshas(any philosophy that don’t accept the ideas of the ancient rishes.Usually this term is referred to the foreigners)meat eating and liquor came with them..

One may think mother cow or holy cow are hindu terms, although it seems but they are just as important in sikh dharma.

First we all look into the specialness of cow in Punjabi culture. In earlier days when there were no tractors in Punjab, it was the cow which helped to reach ones destination(although horses were used but bullcarts were more common ). In Punjabi there are many saying on the cow”dhan mah ghou dah jhaia jin sarah jagat vesaiah”. Punjabi farmers (jamindar ) used to threat the bull like his son. He used the bull to take water out of well, plough the earth.Milk was provided by the cow to drink and many other such activities were carried out with the help of the cow and bull. In olden days, the wealth of a man was not on how much paper notes he had but how many cows he had. We learn from scriptures that in earlier ages people used to have thousands of cows. The richer he is the more cows he had.In our culture “dhud puth” milk and son have great importance. Without a son, a family lineage cannot grow and without milk the society cannot grow.Even the guru is called the giver of son and milk”dhud puth keh dheviah”The word for God “Govind”means protector of cows.

“Pashu meleah Changaeah Khai Bhikh Amrit Dheh”…...(Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji) Milk is compared to nectar, which one can drink to become immortal. Of course, simply drinking milk will not make one immortal, but it can increase the duration of one’s life. In modern civilization, men do not think milk to be important, and therefore they do not live long. Although according to sastras (scriptures) in this age men can live up to one hundred years, their duration of life is reduced because they do not drink large quantities of milk……Instead of drinking milk, people prefer to slaughter an animal and eat its flesh. ( note: Beef has six times the cholesterol of milk. High cholesterol causes heart disease, America’s major cause of death.) From milk alone one can make 36 types of foods ”36 paadharath” Satguru in His instructions, advises gao-raksya, which means cow protection. The cow should be protected, milk should be drawn from the cows, and this milk should be prepared in various ways. One should take ample of milk, and thus one can prolong one’s life, develop his brain, execute devotional service. In olden days even the waste was used as fuel. It was not because they had no other form of fuel. You will be surprised that the ancient civilization of India,they used electricity. How electricity is made is described in the Athar veda .Recently Science have discovered that the fresh cow waste have chemicals which actually can kill harmful bacteria in the atmosphere.

Gurbani thousands of times codes all kinds of meat eating especially cow meat as unhuman.One word in the gurbani which comes together”khill bhikh”.(eg;Khill Bikh Paap Dukh Leh Jahey……Khill Bikh Sakal Dheh Ko Hartah…..Khill Bkikh Dukh Naseh…..)Khill and bhikh are considered two greatest sins in sikh dharma(in the faridkotia thikah of guru granth sahib ji the meaning is beautifully explained.) khill is referred to the killing if cow and bhikh is referred to the killing of a saint. These both are equivalent .Many places in the gurbani mentioned that this two are the greatest sins of all, but today’s sikhs are ignoring all the true facts. Here are other such hukam from the Guru Granth Sahib ji regarding meat (any type) eating.

Guru Arjun Dev’s Hukumnama

During the time of Guru Arjan Dev ji, it was brought to his notice that some of the Sikhs have started taking meat, despite the teachings of all the previous four Gurus prohibiting it. He issued a Hukamnama to all Sikhs reminding them about the vegetarian tradition of the Gurus and the Sikhs. He stated that all the Gurus have preached vegetarianism and strictly prohibited taking of meat, fish, chicken and eggs as well as sarab (liquor) and tobacco. This hukumnama is quoted in the famous book on the history of Khalsa by Indu Bushan Benerjee. This book is in two volumes. According to Benerjee, this Hukumnama is still available in its original.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Guru Har Gobind’s Instructions

Instructions to disciples given by the Sixth Sikh Guru Har Gobind are quite explicit: "Do not go near fish and meat." (This Hukumnama, in its original is preserved at Patna Sahib Gurudwara).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Banda Bahadur’s Hukumnana

In a book containing Hukumnamas of Sikh Gurus (Publisher SGPC), one of the Hukumnamas read as follows:

Hukumnama No. 113 Page 103

Hukum-nam Baba Banda Bahadurji Mohar Farsi Dego Tego fatehi nusrat bedring yaft az Nanak Guru Gobind Singh 1 Omkar fateh Darsanu

"It is the order of the true Lord to the entire body of the Khalsa ..... that they shall abstain from bhang, tobacco, opium, alcohol and desist from eating meat, fish, onion, not indulge in theft and lust." (Reference: Vegetarian or Non-vegetarian: Choose Yourself by Gopinath Aggarwal, Jain Book Agency, New Delhi).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Account of Contemporary Historian

A widely quoted Mugal historian of the time has recorded in his book Dabistan-e-Mazahib (School of Religions) that Guru Arjan Dev made a special proclamation: "eating of meat is forbidden amoung those who follow Guru Nanak."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Practice in Sikh Temples

In all the Sikh temples (gurudawaras), only vegetarian diet is served. Meat, eggs, fish or sarab are never served in gurudwaras.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Direct Quotes from the Adi Granth (Shri Guru Granth Sahib)

The Adi Granth, popularly called as Shri Guru Granth Sahib, has numerous hymns and verses strictly and clearly prohibiting non-vegetarian diet, including meat, fish, chicken and eggs. These verses are as follows:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1

Jey "Ratt" lageey kapra, jama hoi palit, Jey Ratt peevey manava, ta kyo nirmal cheet.

Meaning:

If blood touches a cloth, it becomes unfit for use; If blood (or meat) is consumed by a human being, how can his heart be pure. -Adi Granth (Guru Granth Sahib)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2

To take what rightfully belongs to another, is like a Muslim eating pork, or a Hindu eating beef. Our Guru, our Spiritual Guide, only stands by us, if we do not eat any meat or dead bodies. (1) By mere talk, people do not earn passage to Heaven. Salvation comes only from the practice of Truth. By saying prayers over meat or any other forbidden foods, they are not made acceptable. (2) O Nanak, from false talk, only falsehood is obtained. (3) Adi Granth (Guru Granth Sahib), page 141, Mehl First. Footnotes

(1) Guru Pir hami tan bharee, je murdar na khaee.

(2) Maaran pahee haram mehn, hoyee halal na jayee.

(3) Nanak galeen kudhyan,kudha pale payee

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3

Hinsha tou man te nahin chuti, Jiv daiya nahin pali.

Meaning:

Violence or Cruelty has not left your mind; you have not cherished kindness for other living beings. Adi Granth (Guru Granth Sahib), page 1253

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

4

Hansa hira moti chugna, badu dada bhalan jave.

Meaning:

The diet of swans consists of pearls whereas cranes feed on fish and frogs. -Adi Granth (Guru Granth Sahib), page 960.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

5

Guru Granth Saheb, Rag Jaijaivanti, Slok number 187:

"Kabir, the tyrannt is doing tyranny by killing animals, even if he calls it hallal (legal meat). When his account will be called for in the Court of the Lord, then who will be held accountable? (187)."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

6

Guru Granth Saheb, Rag Jaijaivanti, Salok number 188:

"Kabir, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt. Who would get his throat cut, to have meat with his bread? (188)."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

7

Guru Granth Saheb, Rag Jaijaivanti, Salok number 199:

"Kabir, they oppress living beings and kill them, and call it proper. When the Lord calls for their account, what will their condition be? (199)."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

8

Guru Granth Saheb, Rag Jaijaivanti, Salok number 200:

Kabir, it is tyranny to use force and kill; the Lord shall call you to account. When your account is called for, your face and mouth shall be beaten. (200).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

9

Guru Granth Saheb, Rag Prabhait:

"Jo Sab main eak Khuda kahat ho, toa kayon murgi mare."

Meaning:

If there is one God in all living beings, then why do you kill chickens. (Rag Prabhati, Kabir)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

10

Kabir says at another place:

"Maas madhya sabi taj daloo, ho gyan ghore aswar baram se nyara hai." Meaning: Stop taking meat and wine, ride the horse of perfect knowledge and remove your doubt.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

11

Innumerable are the fools, stark blind in ignorance; and

Innumerable the thieves and crooks that thrive on ill-gotten gains;

Innumerable those that exercise tyranny and oppression; and

Innumerable the cut-throats living by heinous crimes;

Innumerable those that revel in shameless sins; and

Innumerable the liars that practice fraud and falsehood;

Innumerable the impious that live on unwholesome, non-vegetarian foods and intoxications; and

Innumerable the slanderers who add to their burden by calumniating others.

Innumerable, the many for lowly Nanak to describe.

What power have I to conceive of Thy wonderful nature?

Too poor, am I, to make an offering of my life to Thee.

Whatever pleaseth Thee is good;

Thou art forevermore; O Formless One !

-Adi Granth ( Japji, Shaloka 18, Guru Nanak Dev ji)

Countless fools, blinded by ignorance. Countless thieves and embezzlers. Countless impose their will by force. Countless butchers (cut-throats) and ruthless killers. Countless sinners who keep on sinning. Countless liars, wandering lost in their lies. Countless wretches, eating meat (filth) as their diet. Countless slanderers, carrying the weight of their stupid mistakes on their heads. Nanak describes the state of the lowly. -Adi Granth (Guru Granth Sahib), page 4, Japuji Saheb: Salok 18

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bhai Gurdas ji tells about the inhabitants of kaljug “Maran Ghou Ghrib Nuh Dharti Upar Paap Phasara” .They have started to kill the cow and the weak thus the earth have been covered with sins.Please read Bhai Gurdas‘s bani and enlighten yourself.There are many such sutras in the sikh scriptures these are just a few.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Janam Sakhi

Gou bheans ateh murgian hai haiwan garib,tin par shuri haram hai khavan tenah palit.In these verse of janam sakhi Guru Nanak mentions that killing of cows buffalos,hens,is considered haram.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Animal Killer Will Become an Animal and Be Killed

By killing animals, not only will we be bereft of the human form but we will have to take an animal form and somehow or other be killed by the same type of animal we have killed. This is the law of nature. The Sanskrit word “mamsa” means meat. It is said: “mam sah khadatiti mamsah”. That is, “I am now eating the flesh of an animal who some day in the future be eating my flesh”. The choice is yours think for yourself .Baba Kabir ji says “Kabir Jhor Kiah So Julm Hai,Leath Jubab Kudai”

[randip singh]

DHAN DHAN BABA ISHER SINGH JI MAHARAJ NANAKSAR WALEH PATHSHAH:

Sikh Gurus on Vegetarianism

Not Guru's view but a Sant Jatha view.

"ATTHSATH THIRATH SAGAL PUN JEE DEYA PARVAN"

What you eat today will influence the way you think which in turn will influence the way you look ,which in turn will influence your future.Eat lovingly And you will be loved ,eat mercilessly and the world will not be compassionate towards you.

This is the Nanaksar view, i.e. a Sant/Jatha view. The Sikh Rehit Marayada which covers all of Sikhism says otherwise:

In the Rehit Marayada (http://www.sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/section_six.html), Section Six, it states:

The undermentioned four transgressions (tabooed practices) must be avoided

1. Dishonouring the hair;

2. Eating the meat of an animal slaughtered the Muslim way(Kutha);

3. Cohabiting with a person other than one's spouse

4. Using tobacco.

Sikh Rehit Maryada

Vegetarianism is good but not all bodies are designed for vegetables,it all depend upon the shape of your teeth,but eating too much red meat, particularly cow’s meat will not only pollute you mentally ,but will disturb your electromagnetic energy giving you diseses like ‘Canser ,Allergies, Alzheimer’s disesses,pollution of the blood,stress &depression.Cow is a spiritually elevated animal.Ancient Rishes and Sages had the vision the realize this.If you crave meat,stay with lower consciousness animal till your consciousness grows,where you start respecting life.

We are not arguing where meat eating is good or bad for you.

I any case reverenve of the cow id Hindu philosophy not Sikh philosophy.

According to the Auricvedic science the food have certain effect on the body spiritually,mentally & physically.below is a list on which food as what effect on the body.

Again Sikhs don’t care for Ayurvedic Medicine….that is related to Hinduism, and has nothing to do with Sikhism. Sikhism takes a Holistic approach and would consider all forms of medicine i.e. world medicine and that contradicts this.

Those sikhs leaving in foreign countries do not know the sin they are doing when eating cow meat .If one looks towards the Guru , Guru forbids all type of meat. Due to their ignorance those Punjabi’s staying outside have started to eat all types of meat, and now sadly they have started to eat beef, and they come out with all kinds of reasons. Thanks to those so called high educated influenced by western culture have started to preach “it’s all right to eat any type of meat as long as it is jhatka”. Soon they might say “Oh you can eat human meat as long it is jhatka”. Now, it is time we study the importance of cow protection in Sikh dharma.

Cow worship is Hindu Brahminist propaganda pushed by Hindu’s and in turbans. Sikh’s do not consider the cow sacred. For a Sikh a cow is a beast of burden, and work animal on the farm…….and if necessary food.

Now, lets look into the past.In the previous ages the entire bharat was vegetarien. When the kaljug started the rightness was attacked .With the arrivals if melishes and the yakshas(any philosophy that don’t accept the ideas of the ancient rishes.Usually this term is referred to the foreigners)meat eating and liquor came with them..

Nonsense…….even Brahmins ate meat in the so called golden age. It is only in the dark ages the practice of vegetarianism spread from Hindu Vaishnavism.

One may think mother cow or holy cow are hindu terms, although it seems but they are just as important in sikh dharma.

Are you sure you are a Sikh??? You sound like a Hindu? There is nothing sacred about the cow to the Sikh.

First we all look into the specialness of cow in Punjabi culture. In earlier days when there were no tractors in Punjab, it was the cow which helped to reach ones destination(although horses were used but bullcarts were more common ). In Punjabi there are many saying on the cow”dhan mah ghou dah jhaia jin sarah jagat vesaiah”. Punjabi farmers (jamindar ) used to threat the bull like his son. He used the bull to take water out of well, plough the earth.Milk was provided by the cow to drink and many other such activities were carried out with the help of the cow and bull. In olden days, the wealth of a man was not on how much paper notes he had but how many cows he had. We learn from scriptures that in earlier ages people used to have thousands of cows. The richer he is the more cows he had.In our culture “dhud puth” milk and son have great importance. Without a son, a family lineage cannot grow and without milk the society cannot grow.Even the guru is called the giver of son and milk”dhud puth keh dheviah”The word for God “Govind”means protector of cows.

“Pashu meleah Changaeah Khai Bhikh Amrit Dheh”…...(Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji) Milk is compared to nectar, which one can drink to become immortal. Of course, simply drinking milk will not make one immortal, but it can increase the duration of one’s life. In modern civilization, men do not think milk to be important, and therefore they do not live long. Although according to sastras (scriptures) in this age men can live up to one hundred years, their duration of life is reduced because they do not drink large quantities of milk……Instead of drinking milk, people prefer to slaughter an animal and eat its flesh. ( note: Beef has six times the cholesterol of milk. High cholesterol causes heart disease, America’s major cause of death.) From milk alone one can make 36 types of foods ”36 paadharath” Satguru in His instructions, advises gao-raksya, which means cow protection. The cow should be protected, milk should be drawn from the cows, and this milk should be prepared in various ways. One should take ample of milk, and thus one can prolong one’s life, develop his brain, execute devotional service. In olden days even the waste was used as fuel. It was not because they had no other form of fuel. You will be surprised that the ancient civilization of India,they used electricity. How electricity is made is described in the Athar veda .Recently Science have discovered that the fresh cow waste have chemicals which actually can kill harmful bacteria in the atmosphere.

The cow is nothing special for a Sikh but just a beast of burden. Sikh’s don’t worship it. They don’t drink it’s urine, they consider it nothing special apart from a field plougher.

Gurbani thousands of times codes all kinds of meat eating especially cow meat as unhuman.One word in the gurbani which comes together”khill bhikh”.(eg;Khill Bikh Paap Dukh Leh Jahey……Khill Bikh Sakal Dheh Ko Hartah…..Khill Bkikh Dukh Naseh…..)Khill and bhikh are considered two greatest sins in sikh dharma(in the faridkotia thikah of guru granth sahib ji the meaning is beautifully explained.) khill is referred to the killing if cow and bhikh is referred to the killing of a saint. These both are equivalent .Many places in the gurbani mentioned that this two are the greatest sins of all, but today’s sikhs are ignoring all the true facts. Here are other such hukam from the Guru Granth Sahib ji regarding meat (any type) eating.

Lie’s.

Bani says nothing about eating meat or not eating meat but leaves it to individual conscience.

This is something Hindu Vaishnav’s have sought to push heavily in the Sikh faith.

The ideas of devotion and service in Vaishnavism have been accepted by Adi Granth, but the insistence of Vaishnavas on vegetarian diet has been rejected.

Guru Granth Sahib, An Analytical Study by Surindar Singh Kohli, Singh Bros. Amritsar

As a true Vaisnavite Kabir remained a strict vegetarian. Kabir far from defying Brahmanical tradition as to the eating of meat, would not permit so much, as the plucking of a flower (G.G.S. pg 479), whereas Nanak deemed all such scruples to be superstitions, Kabir held the doctrine of Ahinsa or the non-destruction of life, which extended even to that of flowers. The Sikh Gurus, on the contrary, allowed and even encouraged, the use of animal flesh as food. Nanak has exposed this Ahinsa superstition in Asa Ki War (G.G.S. pg 472) and Malar Ke War (G.G.S. pg. 1288).

Philosophy of Sikhism by Gyani Sher Singh (Ph.D), Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee. Amritsar

Guru Arjun Dev’s Hukumnama

During the time of Guru Arjan Dev ji, it was brought to his notice that some of the Sikhs have started taking meat, despite the teachings of all the previous four Gurus prohibiting it. He issued a Hukamnama to all Sikhs reminding them about the vegetarian tradition of the Gurus and the Sikhs. He stated that all the Gurus have preached vegetarianism and strictly prohibited taking of meat, fish, chicken and eggs as well as sarab (liquor) and tobacco. This hukumnama is quoted in the famous book on the history of Khalsa by Indu Bushan Benerjee. This book is in two volumes. According to Benerjee, this Hukumnama is still available in its original.

No such Hukamnama exists and is another myth created by Hindu Vaishnav’s.

Guru Har Gobind’s Instructions

Instructions to disciples given by the Sixth Sikh Guru Har Gobind are quite explicit: "Do not go near fish and meat." (This Hukumnama, in its original is preserved at Patna Sahib Gurudwara).

In fact such a hukamna would indeed contradict the one Guru Gobind Singh ji sent to his Sikhs in Kabul (ADVANCED STUDIES IN SIKHISM by Jasbir Singh and Harbans Singh.):

"Sarbat sangat Kabul Guru rakhe ga

Tusa ute asaadee bahut khusi hai

Tusi Khande da Amrit Panja to lena

Kes rakhne...ih asadee mohur hair;

Kachh, Kirpan da visah nahee karna

SARB LOH da kara hath rakhna

Dono vakat kesa dee palna karna

Sarbat sangat abhakhia da kutha

Khave naheen, Tamakoo na vartana

Bhadni tatha kanya-maran-vale so mel na rakhe

Meene, Massandei, Ramraiye ki sangat na baiso

Gurbani parhni...Waheguru, Waheguru japna

Guru kee rahat rakhnee

Sarbat sangat oopar meri khushi hai.

Patshahi Dasvi

Jeth 26, Samat 1756

To the entire sangat at Kabul.

The Guru will protect the Sangat,

I am pleased with you all.

You should take baptism by the sword, from the Five Beloveds.

Keep your hair uncut for this is a seal of the Guru,

Accept the use of shorts and a sword.

Always wear IRON KARA on your wrist,

Keep your hair clean and comb it twice a day.

Do not eat Halal (Kosher) meat,

Do not use tobacco in any form,

Have no connection with those who kill their daughters

Or permit the cutting of their children's hair.

Do not associate with Meenas, Massands and Ram-raiyas (anti-Sikh cults)

Recite the Guru's hymns

Meditate on "The Name of our Wonderful Lord",

Follow the Sikh code of discipline

I give the entire sangat my blessing)

Signature of 10th Guru

Jeth 26, 1756 Bikrami 23rd May 1699 A.D

Banda Bahadur’s Hukumnana

In a book containing Hukumnamas of Sikh Gurus (Publisher SGPC), one of the Hukumnamas read as follows:

Hukumnama No. 113 Page 103

Hukum-nam Baba Banda Bahadurji Mohar Farsi Dego Tego fatehi nusrat bedring yaft az Nanak Guru Gobind Singh 1 Omkar fateh Darsanu

"It is the order of the true Lord to the entire body of the Khalsa ..... that they shall abstain from bhang, tobacco, opium, alcohol and desist from eating meat, fish, onion, not indulge in theft and lust." (Reference: Vegetarian or Non-vegetarian: Choose Yourself by Gopinath Aggarwal, Jain Book Agency, New Delhi).

Bandha Bahadhur was a Bairagi, who never ate meat because he once killed a pregnant Doe. He cause a rift in the Khalsa with this statement at the time and later retracted this Hukamnama..

He also said give up onion…..soshould all Sikh’s give up onion? Again this can be dismissed.

Account of Contemporary Historian

A widely quoted Mugal historian of the time has recorded in his book Dabistan-e-Mazahib (School of Religions) that Guru Arjan Dev made a special proclamation: "eating of meat is forbidden amoung those who follow Guru Nanak."

Another misquote and taken out of context. Here is the entire quote from Sikh Histrory From Persian Soursces –Grewal and Habib:

Many person became his disciples. Nanak believed in the Oneness of God and in the way that it is asserted in Muhammadan theology. He also believed in transmigration of souls. Holding wine and pork to be unlawful, he had [himself] abandoned eating meat. He decreed avoidance of causing harm to animals. It was after his time that meat-eating spread amongst his followers. Arjan Mal, who was on of his lineal succesors, found this to be evil. He prohibited people from eating meat, saying This is not in accordance with Nanaks wishes. Later, Hargobind, son of Arjan Mal, ate meat and took to hunting. Most of their [the Gurus] followers adopted his practice.

Mobad Dabistan-I Mazahib 1645-46

So clearly a lie and false propaganda by Hindu Vaishnav’s.

Infact a scholar writes:

The practice of the Gurus is uncertain. Guru Nanak seems to have eaten venison or goat, depending upon different janamsakhi versions of a meal which he cooked at Kurukshetra which evoked the criticism of Brahmins. Guru Amardas ate only rice and lentils but this abstention cannot be regarded as evidence of vegetarianism, only of simple living. Guru Gobind Singh also permitted the eating of meat but he prescribed that it should be Jhatka meat and not Halal meat that is jagged in the Muslim fashion.

Mini Encyclopaedia of Sikhism by H.S. Singha, Hemkunt Press, Delhi.

Practice in Sikh Temples

In all the Sikh temples (gurudawaras), only vegetarian diet is served. Meat, eggs, fish or sarab are never served in gurudwaras.

More nonsense:

The reason why meat is not served at langar in the Gurdwaras is because langar is supposed to be a symbol of equality of mankind where all people no matter what race, religion or caste can eat together in the atmosphere of brotherhood. Hindu, Sikh, Muslim, it does not matter who they are. Different religions have different dietary restrictions. Hindus cannot eat cow, muslims cannot eat pork and will only eat halal meat. Jews will only eat kosher meat, others cannot eat fish or eggs. But in a gurdwara langar, it does not matter what their dietary taboos or religious beliefs are, the food is designed so that all can eat together and no one will be offended or not be able to partake of the meal.

Direct Quotes from the Adi Granth (Shri Guru Granth Sahib)

The Adi Granth, popularly called as Shri Guru Granth Sahib, has numerous hymns and verses strictly and clearly prohibiting non-vegetarian diet, including meat, fish, chicken and eggs. These verses are as follows:

No they are not…and as will demonstrate you are pushing a Hindu Vaishnav Agenda. Sikhism has nothing to do with meat eating or vegetarianism. It is a personal choice. People like you are causing splits in the Sikh community.

1

Jey "Ratt" lageey kapra, jama hoi palit, Jey Ratt peevey manava, ta kyo nirmal cheet.

Meaning:

If blood touches a cloth, it becomes unfit for use; If blood (or meat) is consumed by a human being, how can his heart be pure. -Adi Granth (Guru Granth Sahib)

What page and where?

Until you provide the page number of this quotation we will assume it either does not exist or is out of context.

Infact Guru ji describes the pain of plants:

The vegetable feels pain just as the animal does, there is no difference.

"See, that the sugarcane is sheared. After cleansing and chopping off its plumes, its feet are bound to form it into bundles. Placing it in between the wooden rollers of the press, they crush and award it punishment. Extracting the juice, they put it in the cauldron and it groans as it burns. Even the empty crushed cane is collected and is burnt in the fire. Nanak, how the sweet-leaved sugar-cane is treated, come and see, O’ people!"

( Guru Nanak, Slok, pg. 143)

2

To take what rightfully belongs to another, is like a Muslim eating pork, or a Hindu eating beef. Our Guru, our Spiritual Guide, only stands by us, if we do not eat any meat or dead bodies. (1) By mere talk, people do not earn passage to Heaven. Salvation comes only from the practice of Truth. By saying prayers over meat or any other forbidden foods, they are not made acceptable. (2) O Nanak, from false talk, only falsehood is obtained. (3) Adi Granth (Guru Granth Sahib), page 141, Mehl First. Footnotes

(1) Guru Pir hami tan bharee, je murdar na khaee.

(2) Maaran pahee haram mehn, hoyee halal na jayee.

(3) Nanak galeen kudhyan,kudha pale payee

Again the meaning has been twisted by Hindu Vaishnav’s. The first line says :

To take what rightfully belongs to another

and continues like a Muslim eating pork, or Hindu eating beef.

The rest of the translation is mistranslated and a pure lie:

From www.srigranth.org:

Page 141, Line 1

mehlaa 1.

First Mehl

view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 141, Line 1

॥

: To take what rightfully belongs to another, is like a Muslim eating pork, or a Hindu eating beef.

Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 141, Line 1

॥

gur peer haamaa taa bharay jaa murdaar na khaa-ay.

Our Guru, our Spiritual Guide, stands by us, if we do not eat those carcasses.

Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 141, Line 2

galee bhisat na jaa-ee-ai chhutai sach kamaa-ay.

By mere talk, people do not earn passage to Heaven. Salvation comes only from the practice of Truth.

Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 141, Line 2

maaran paahi haraam meh ho-ay halaal na jaa-ay.

By adding spices to forbidden foods, they are not made acceptable.

Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 141, Line 3

naanak galee koorhee-ee koorho palai paa-ay. ||2||

O Nanak, from false talk, only falsehood is obtained. ||2||

No mention of meat….so stop trying to trick us Hardeep. That is very dihonest and underhand.

3

Hinsha tou man te nahin chuti, Jiv daiya nahin pali.

Meaning:

Violence or Cruelty has not left your mind; you have not cherished kindness for other living beings. Adi Granth (Guru Granth Sahib), page 1253

Again taken out of context……….this shabad is about cruelty people do to fellow human beings:

Page 1253, Line 4

saarang.

Saarang:

view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 1253, Line 4

ik-oNkaar satgur parsaad.

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 1253, Line 5

tai nar ki-aa puraan sun keenaa.

So what have you accomplished by listening to the Puraanas?

Devotee Parmanand - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 1253, Line 5

anpaavnee bhagat nahee upjee bhookhai daan na deenaa. ||1|| rahaa-o.

Faithful devotion has not welled up within you, and you have not been inspired to give to the hungry. ||1||Pause||

Devotee Parmanand - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 1253, Line 6

kaam na bisri-o kroDh na bisri-o lobh na chhooti-o dayvaa.

You have not forgotten sexual desire, and you have not forgotten anger; greed has not left you either.

Devotee Parmanand - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 1253, Line 6

par nindaa mukh tay nahee chhootee nifal bha-ee sabh sayvaa. ||1||

Your mouth has not stopped slandering and gossiping about others. Your service is useless and fruitless. ||1||

Devotee Parmanand - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 1253, Line 7

baat paar ghar moos biraano payt bharai apraaDhee.

By breaking into the houses of others and robbing them, you fill your belly, you sinner.

Devotee Parmanand - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 1253, Line 7

jihi parlok jaa-ay apkeerat so-ee abidi-aa saaDhee. ||2||

But when you go to the world beyond, your guilt will be well known, by the acts of ignorance which you committed. ||2||

Devotee Parmanand - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 1253, Line 8

hinsaa ta-o man tay nahee chhootee jee-a da-i-aa nahee paalee.

Cruelty has not left your mind; you have not cherished kindness for other living beings.

Devotee Parmanand - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 1253, Line 8

parmaanand saaDhsangat mil kathaa puneet na chaalee. ||3||1||6||

Parmaanand has joined the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy. Why have you not followed the sacred teachings? ||3||1||6||

Devotee Parmanand - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 1253, Line 10

chhaad man har bimukhan ko sang.

O mind, do not even associate with those who have turned their backs on the Lord.

4

Hansa hira moti chugna, badu dada bhalan jave.

Meaning:

The diet of swans consists of pearls whereas cranes feed on fish and frogs. -Adi Granth (Guru Granth Sahib), page 960.

A pearl is obtained from killing a living animal….an Oyster? So again this quotation is invalid.

5

Guru Granth Saheb, Rag Jaijaivanti, Slok number 187:

"Kabir, the tyrannt is doing tyranny by killing animals, even if he calls it hallal (legal meat). When his account will be called for in the Court of the Lord, then who will be held accountable? (187)."

Again this sounds like you have taken this out of context. I have had trouble searching this. Please highlight the page number.

Also, I do not think “Killing Animals” exists in this ang.

6

Guru Granth Saheb, Rag Jaijaivanti, Salok number 188:

"Kabir, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt. Who would get his throat cut, to have meat with his bread? (188)."

A classic misrepresentation and mistranslation:

Let us add this to the correct context:

oraa gar paanee bha-i-aa jaa-ay mili-o dhal kool.

kabeeraa Dhoor sakayl kai puree-aa baaNDhee dayh.

divas chaar ko paykhnaa ant khayh kee khayh.

kabeer sooraj chaaNd kai udai bha-ee sabh dayh.

gur gobind kay bin milay palat bha-ee sabh khayh.

jah anbha-o tah bhai nahee jah bha-o tah har naahi.

kahi-o kabeer bichaar kai sant sunhu man maahi.

kabeer jinahu kichhoo jaani-aa nahee tin sukh need bihaa-ay.

hamhu jo boojhaa boojhnaa pooree paree balaa-ay.

laagee chot maramm kee rahi-o kabeeraa tha-ur.

kabeer chot suhaylee sayl kee laagat lay-ay usaas.

chot sahaarai sabad kee taas guroo mai daas.

kabeer mulaaN munaaray ki-aa chadheh saaN-ee na bahraa ho-ay.

jaa kaaran tooN baaNg deh dil hee bheetar jo-ay.

saykh sabooree baahraa ki-aa haj kaabay jaa-ay.

kabeer jaa kee dil saabat nahee taa ka-o kahaaN khudaa-ay.

kabeer alah kee kar bandagee jih simrat dukh jaa-ay.

dil meh saaN-ee pargatai bujhai balantee naaN-ay.

kabeer joree kee-ay julam hai kahtaa naa-o halaal.

daftar laykhaa maaNgee-ai tab ho-igo ka-un havaal.

kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.

hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un.

kabeer gur laagaa tab jaanee-ai mitai moh tan taap.

harakh sog daajhai nahee tab har aapeh aap.

kabeer raam kahan meh bhayd hai taa meh ayk bichaar.

so-ee raam sabhai kaheh so-ee ka-utakhaar.

kabeer raamai raam kaho kahibay maahi bibayk.

ayk anaykeh mil ga-i-aa ayk samaanaa ayk.

kabeer jaa ghar saaDh na sayvee-ah har kee sayvaa naahi.

tay ghar marhat saarkhay bhoot baseh tin maahi.

kabeer goongaa hoo-aa baavraa bahraa hoo-aa kaan.

paavhu tay pingul bha-i-aa maari-aa satgur baan.

kabeer satgur soormay baahi-aa baan jo ayk.

laagat hee bhu-ay gir pari-aa paraa karayjay chhayk.

kabeer nirmal boond akaas kee par ga-ee bhoom bikaar.

The hail-stone has melted into water, and flowed into the ocean.

Kabeer, the body is a pile of dust, collected and packed together.

It is a show which lasts for only a few days, and then dust returns to dust.

Kabeer, bodies are like the rising and setting of the sun and the moon.

Without meeting the Guru, the Lord of the Universe, they are all reduced to dust again.

Where the Fearless Lord is, there is no fear; where there is fear, the Lord is not there.

Kabeer speaks after careful consideration; hear this, O Saints, in your minds.

Kabeer, those who do not know anything, pass their lives in peaceful sleep.

But I have understood the riddle; I am faced with all sorts of troubles.

Struck by the Mystery of God, Kabeer remains silent.

Kabeer, the stroke of a lance is easy to bear; it takes away the breath.

But one who endures the stroke of the Word of the Shabad is the Guru, and I am his slave.

Kabeer: O Mullah, why do you climb to the top of the minaret? The Lord is not hard of hearing.

Look within your own heart for the One, for whose sake you shout your prayers.

Why does the Shaykh bother to go on pilgrimage to Mecca, if he is not content with himself?

Kabeer, one whose heart is not healthy and whole - how can he attain his Lord?

Kabeer, worship the Lord Allah; meditating in remembrance on Him, troubles and pains depart.

The Lord shall be revealed within your own heart, and the burning fire within shall be extinguished by His Name.

Kabeer, to use force is tyranny, even if you call it legal.

When your account is called for in the Court of the Lord, what will your condition be then?

Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.

Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread?

Kabeer, one is known to have been touched by the Guru, only when his emotional attachment and physical illnesses are eradicated.

He is not burned by pleasure or pain, and so he becomes the Lord Himself.

Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider.

Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath and the Wondrous Lord.

Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction.

One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere, while the other is contained only in himself.

Kabeer, those houses in which neither the Holy nor the Lord are served –

those houses are like cremation grounds; demons dwell within them.

Kabeer, I have become mute, insane and deaf.

I am crippled - the True Guru has pierced me with His Arrow.

Kabeer, the True Guru, the Spiritual Warrior, has shot me with His Arrow.

As soon as it struck me, I fell to the ground, with a hole in my heart.

Kabeer, the pure drop of water falls from the sky, onto the dirty ground.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

At one level this is a mistranslation and at another misrepresentation of the context within which this is written:

kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.

Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.

hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un.

Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread?

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

In the above Gurmukhi, there is no mention of meat whatsoever. hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un, means literally, who would cut their own throat to eat food. The person who has tried to translate this has added his/her own spin .What this is actually saying is that to the follower of the Guru or one who has been touched by God a simple dish of Kheechree (lentils and rice), flavoured with salt is enough. To have something more exotic to eat you would not cut your own throat (the western equivalent would be to cut your own nose off to spite your face). In no way is this tukh anything to do with meat eating and the person who has misrepresented and mistranslated it should be held to account for his/her actions.

Guru Granth Saheb, Rag Jaijaivanti, Salok number 199:

"Kabir, they oppress living beings and kill them, and call it proper. When the Lord calls for their account, what will their condition be? (199)."

Again this has nothing to do with meat but is talking about the oppression of human beings. The Gurmikhi translation does not talk about anials or meat at all.

8

Guru Granth Saheb, Rag Jaijaivanti, Salok number 200:

Kabir, it is tyranny to use force and kill; the Lord shall call you to account. When your account is called for, your face and mouth shall be beaten. (200).

This ang in its entirety is condemning tyrants and again has nothing to do with meat eating or killing animals. It may have something to do with the invasion of Timur (which Kanir witnessed), and the sacking of Benares and Delhi, where 100, 000 Hindu’s were put to the sword.

9

Guru Granth Saheb, Rag Prabhait:

"Jo Sab main eak Khuda kahat ho, toa kayon murgi mare."

Meaning:

If there is one God in all living beings, then why do you kill chickens. (Rag Prabhati, Kabir)

Again taken out of context:

Again, let us put this into context:

bayd katayb kahhu mat jhoothay jhoothaa jo na bichaarai.

ja-o sabh meh ayk khudaa-ay kahat ha-o ta-o ki-o murgee maarai.

mulaaN kahhu ni-aa-o khudaa-ee.

tayray man kaa bharam na jaa-ee. rahaa-o.

pakar jee-o aani-aa dayh binaasee maatee ka-o bismil kee-aa.

jot saroop anaahat laagee kaho halaal ki-aa kee-aa.

ki-aa ujoo paak kee-aa muhu Dho-i-aa ki-aa maseet sir laa-i-aa.

ja-o dil meh kapat nivaaj gujaarahu ki-aa haj kaabai jaa-i-aa.

tooN naapaak paak nahee soojhi-aa tis kaa maram na jaani-aa.

kahi kabeer bhisat tay chookaa dojak si-o man maani-aa.

Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false.

You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens?

O Mullah, tell me: is this God's Justice?

The doubts of your mind have not been dispelled. Pause

You seize a living creature, and then bring it home and kill its body; you have killed only the clay.

The light of the soul passes into another form. So tell me, what have you killed?

And what good are your purifications? Why do you bother to wash your face? And why do you bother to bow your head in the mosque?

Your heart is full of hypocrisy; what good are your prayers or your pilgrimage to Mecca?

You are impure; you do not understand the Pure Lord. You do not know His Mystery.

Says Kabeer, you have missed out on paradise; your mind is set on hell.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

First point to note is that halaal and bismil, does not mean kill but refers to a specific form of ritual slaughter. Put into context this is a comment on the Muslim sacrifice ritual where either a goat or a chicken is kept in the confines of the home and then ritually slaughtered as obeisance to Abraham. Kabeer is mocking the futility of this ritual and saying, that why are you doing this sacrifice just to emulate Gods asking of Abraham to kill his only son? It is a futile gesture that will not sway God. Abraham was sacrificing his son to God, however all the sacrifice in this instance has achieved is destruction of the outer shell of the chicken. The soul wont travel to God, but merely to another form. One can only understand this if one has a basic grasp of history. In this instance the person who tried to use this tukh as an anti-meat quotation was unaware of the Koranic context and had an extremely poor knowledge of Semitic history.

10

Kabir says at another place:

"Maas madhya sabi taj daloo, ho gyan ghore aswar baram se nyara hai." Meaning: Stop taking meat and wine, ride the horse of perfect knowledge and remove your doubt.

Where does he say this? We have checked the translations and cannot find this?

Check www.srigranth.org yourself.

11

Innumerable are the fools, stark blind in ignorance; and

Innumerable the thieves and crooks that thrive on ill-gotten gains;

Innumerable those that exercise tyranny and oppression; and

Innumerable the cut-throats living by heinous crimes;

Innumerable those that revel in shameless sins; and

Innumerable the liars that practice fraud and falsehood;

Innumerable the impious that live on unwholesome, non-vegetarian foods and intoxications; and

Innumerable the slanderers who add to their burden by calumniating others.

Innumerable, the many for lowly Nanak to describe.

What power have I to conceive of Thy wonderful nature?

Too poor, am I, to make an offering of my life to Thee.

Whatever pleaseth Thee is good;

Thou art forevermore; O Formless One !

-Adi Granth ( Japji, Shaloka 18, Guru Nanak Dev ji)

Countless fools, blinded by ignorance. Countless thieves and embezzlers. Countless impose their will by force. Countless butchers (cut-throats) and ruthless killers. Countless sinners who keep on sinning. Countless liars, wandering lost in their lies. Countless wretches, eating meat (filth) as their diet. Countless slanderers, carrying the weight of their stupid mistakes on their heads. Nanak describes the state of the lowly. -Adi Granth (Guru Granth Sahib), page 4, Japuji Saheb: Salok 18

Again a mistralslation and taken out of context. No mention of non-vegetarian food or butchers. Only one way to describe it complete lies. Here is the proper translation from www.srigranth.org:

Page 4, Line 1

asaNkh bhagat gun gi-aan veechaar.

Countless devotees contemplate the Wisdom and Virtues of the Lord.

Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 4, Line 1

asaNkh satee asaNkh daataar.

Countless the holy, countless the givers.

Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 4, Line 1

asaNkh soor muh bhakh saar.

Countless heroic spiritual warriors, who bear the brunt of the attack in battle (who with their mouths eat steel).

Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 4, Line 2

asaNkh mon liv laa-ay taar.

Countless silent sages, vibrating the String of His Love.

Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 4, Line 2

kudrat kavan kahaa veechaar.

How can Your Creative Potency be described?

Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 4, Line 2

vaari-aa na jaavaa ayk vaar.

I cannot even once be a sacrifice to You.

Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 4, Line 2

jo tuDh bhaavai saa-ee bhalee kaar.

Whatever pleases You is the only good done,

Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 4, Line 3

too sadaa salaamat nirankaar. ||17||

You, Eternal and Formless One. ||17||

Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 4, Line 3

asaNkh moorakh anDh ghor.

Countless fools, blinded by ignorance.

Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 4, Line 3

asaNkh chor haraamkhor.

Countless thieves and embezzlers.

Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 4, Line 4

asaNkh amar kar jaahi jor.

Countless impose their will by force.

Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 4, Line 4

asaNkh galvadh hati-aa kamaahi.

Countless cut-throats and ruthless killers.

Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 4, Line 4

asaNkh paapee paap kar jaahi.

Countless sinners who keep on sinning.

Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 4, Line 4

asaNkh koorhi-aar koorhay firaahi.

Countless liars, wandering lost in their lies.

Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 4, Line 5

asaNkh malaychh mal bhakh khaahi.

Countless wretches, eating filth as their ration.

Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 4, Line 5

asaNkh nindak sir karahi bhaar.

Countless slanderers, carrying the weight of their stupid mistakes on their heads.

Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 4, Line 5

naanak neech kahai veechaar.

Nanak describes the state of the lowly.

Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 4, Line 6

vaari-aa na jaavaa ayk vaar.

I cannot even once be a sacrifice to You.

Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 4, Line 6

jo tuDh bhaavai saa-ee bhalee kaar.

Whatever pleases You is the only good done,

Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 4, Line 6

too sadaa salaamat nirankaar. ||18||

You, Eternal and Formless One. ||18||

Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 4, Line 7

asaNkh naav asaNkh thaav.

Countless names, countless places.

Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 4, Line 7

agamm agamm asaNkh lo-a.

Inaccessible, unapproachable, countless celestial realms.

Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 4, Line 7

asaNkh kehahi sir bhaar ho-ay.

Even to call them countless is to carry the weight on your head.

Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 4, Line 7

akhree naam akhree saalaah.

From the Word, comes the Naam; from the Word, comes Your Praise.

Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 4, Line 8

akhree gi-aan geet gun gaah.

From the Word, comes spiritual wisdom, singing the Songs of Your Glory.

Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 4, Line 8

akhree likhan bolan baan.

From the Word, come the written and spoken words and hymns.

Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 4, Line 8

akhraa sir sanjog vakhaan.

From the Word, comes destiny, written on one's forehead.

Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 4, Line 9

jin ayhi likhay tis sir naahi.

But the One who wrote these Words of Destiny-no words are written on His Forehead.

Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 4, Line 9

jiv furmaa-ay tiv tiv paahi.

As He ordains, so do we receive.

Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 4, Line 9

jaytaa keetaa taytaa naa-o.

The created universe is the manifestation of Your Name.

Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Bhai Gurdas ji tells about the inhabitants of kaljug “Maran Ghou Ghrib Nuh Dharti Upar Paap Phasara” .They have started to kill the cow and the weak thus the earth have been covered with sins.Please read Bhai Gurdas‘s bani and enlighten yourself.There are many such sutras in the sikh scriptures these are just a few.

This is a metaphor for tyrannical rule f the Mughals. Bhai Gurdas also says:

Just as one has to tie pail's neck while taking out water,

Just as to get Mani, snake is to be killed

Just as to get Kasturi from deer's neck, deer is to be killed

Just as to get oil, oil seeds are to be crushed

To get kernel, pomegranate is to be broken

Similarly to correct senseless people, sword has to be taken up.

Bhai Gurdas, //-34, pauri 13

and also:

‘An elephant’s flesh is not edible for he is full of pride, The lion is also full of pride of its strength so no one eats it either, Humble is the goat it gains honor in the here after and this world, In all celebrations is it [the meat], acknowledged, It [the meat], sanctifies religious gatherings and feasts, Its meat is ‘Pavitar’ [good/sacred] for the householder, From its entrails [tendons] is string for instruments made that when they play, attracts holy men in meditation From it’s skin are shoes made, which holy feet wear as they go to seek holy protection [to Guru]. With its skin are bound drums with which ‘Kirtan’ [religious songs], are sung, Hence, they [goat-skin bound drums] give great comfort. The holy gathering is coming into the Guru’s protection.’ (Bhai Gurdas Ji’s Varan, Bhai Gurdas, ‘Vaar 23, Pauri 13’)

Janam Sakhi

Gou bheans ateh murgian hai haiwan garib,tin par shuri haram hai khavan tenah palit.In these verse of janam sakhi Guru Nanak mentions that killing of cows buffalos,hens,is considered haram.

Sakhi’s are a dime a dozen. Unless they were written by contemporaries, they are usually not authentic. Many were written by Brahmin’s and Hindu Vaishnav’s.

In any case which Sakhi is this?

The Animal Killer Will Become an Animal and Be Killed

By killing animals, not only will we be bereft of the human form but we will have to take an animal form and somehow or other be killed by the same type of animal we have killed. This is the law of nature. The Sanskrit word “mamsa” means meat. It is said: “mam sah khadatiti mamsah”. That is, “I am now eating the flesh of an animal who some day in the future be eating my flesh”. The choice is yours think for yourself .Baba Kabir ji says “Kabir Jhor Kiah So Julm Hai,Leath Jubab Kudai”

We are not Vaishnav;s like Kabir or Kabir Panthi’s. The Guru’s only included that of what Kabir said that fiited in with Sikh doctrine. Baba Farid was a Muslim and espoused the virtue of Islam in other writings, and also the virtue of Halal? Shall we also follow everything he writes?

Also Baghat Sadhana was a butcher…….was he and his profession so bad that the Guru’s condemned him? No in fact they included his hymms in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

Here is and extract from www.sikhs.org:

Meat classifed with good foods such as bread, not bad foods such as wine

The body is the bottle, self-conceit is the wine, and desire is the company of drinking companions. The glass of the minds longing is filled to overflowing with falsehood; the Messenger of Death is the bartender. Drinking in this wine, O Nanak, one takes on countless vices and corruption. So make spiritual wisdom your molasses, and the Praise of God your bread; let the Fear of God be the dish of meat. O Nanak, this is the true food; let the True Name be your only Support.

Baba Mardana, Bihagara, pg. 553

In the society of the times meat was avoided by Hindus and certain kinds by the Muslims. The Gurus tried to explain to these people that it was not eating meat was not the real sin but:

Taking anothers right is the real thing to be avoided

"Nanak, another's right is swine for him (the Musalman) and cow for him (the Hindu)."

(Guru Nanak, pg. 141)

Falsehood is the real thing to avoid

"By uttering falsehood, man eats meat, Yet, he goes to admonish others. Such appears to be the leader, O' Nanak! who himself is beguiled and beguiles his comrades."

(Guru Nanak, Slok, pg. 140)

"Falsehood is my dagger and to eat by defrauding is meat."

(Guru Nanak, Sri Rag, pg. 24)

Evil intellect, heartlesness, slander and wrath are the real things to avoid

Evil-intellect is the she drummer, heartlessness is the butcheress, others slander in the heart is a sweepress and deceitful wrath is a pariah-woman

(Guru Nanak, Slok, pg. 91)

Avarice, falsehood, cheatings and slander are the real things to avoid

Avarice is a dog., falsehood the sweeper and cheating the eating of meat. Slandering others solely amounts to puting others filth in ones own mouth and fire of wrath is a pariah

(Guru Nanak, Sri Rag, pg.15)

The Gurus clearly stated what are sins throughout the Guru Granth Sahib, nowhere is eating meat mentioned as being one of these sins.

"Taking halter, men go out at night to strangle others, but the Lord knows all, O mortal. Concealed in places they look at other women. They break into places, difficult to acceess and enjoy wine deeming it sweet. Over their respective misdeeds, they shall themselves afterwards regret. Azrail, the courier of death shall crush them like the mill full of sesame."

(Guru Arjan Dev, Pauri, pg. 315)

"Renounce sexual pleasures, wrath, falsehood and calumny, forsake worldly valuables and dispel pride. Put aside the lust for belles and leave worldly love. Then shalt thou obtain the bright Lord amidst the dark world. Eschew self-adoration, egotism and affection for thy sons and wife. Shed thirst and desire for wealth and embrace love for the omnipresent Lord. Nanak, he, in whose mind the True One abides, through the True Gurbani gets absorbed in God's Name."

(Guru Ram Das, pg. 141)

"Abandon lust, wrath, avarice and worldly love. Thus be rid of both birth and death. Distress and darkness shall depart from thy home, when, within thee, the Guru implants wisdom and lights the Divine lamp. He, who serves the Lord crosses the sea of life. Through the Guru, O slave Nanak, the entire world is saved."

(Guru Arjan Dev, Gauri, pg. 241)

"In the fire of desire, avarice, arrogance and excessive egotism the man is burning. He repeatedly goes, comes and loses his honour. His life he wastes away in vain. Rare is the person who understands Gurbani."

(Guru Amar Das, Majh, pg 120)

The superstitions of the impurity of certain foods such as meat exposed and the real emphasis revealed:

"If the principle of impurity be admitted, then there is impurity everywhere.

In cow-dung and wood there are worms.

As many as are the grains of corn, none is without life.

In the first place there is life in water, by which, all are made green.

How can impurity be warded off? It falls on our own kitchen.

Nanak, impurity is not removed like this. It is washed away by Divine Knowledge.

The mind's impurity is avarice and the tongue's impurity falsehood.

The impurity of the eyes is to behold another's woman, another's wealth and beauty.

The impurity of the ears is to hear the slander of others with ears,

Nanak, mortal's soul goes bout to the city of death.

All impurity consists in doubt and attachment to duality.

Birth and death are subject to Lord's command and through His will mortal comes and goes.

Eating and drinking are pure, for the Lord has given sustenance to all.

Nanak, the Gurmukh who know the Lord, to them impurity sticks not."

(Guru Nanak, Slok, pg. 472)

"What can be achieved by eating and what by dressing, so long as that True Lord abides not in the man's mind? What is fruit, what clarified butter and sweet molasses, what fine flour and what meat? What is rainment and what comfortable couch to enjoy sexual intercourse and revelments? Of what use is an army and of what the mace-bearers, servants and coming and dwelling in mansions? Nanak, without the True Name, the entire paraphernalia is perishable."

(Guru Nanak, pg. 142)

"The True food is the Lord's love. So says the True Guru. With the True food I am appeased and with Truth I am delighted."

(Guru Angad, Pauri, pg. 146)

"The world-hardened men, who eat poison by repeatedly telling lies, the Lord Himself has led astray. They know not the ultimate reality of departure, and increase the poison of lust and wrath."

(Guru Amar Das, Pauri, pg. 145)

"Without the Name all, which man wears and eats is poison. By praising the True Name one merges in the True Master."

(Guru Nanak, Pauri, pg.144)

"By reading and reciting men grow weary but they obtain not peace. By desire they are consumed, and they have no knowledge of it. Poison they purchase and for the love of poison they are thirsty. By telling lies they eat poison."

(Guru Amrar Das, Majh, pg. 120)

"I have tasted and seen all other relishes but to my mind the God's dainty is the sweetest of all."

(Guru Arjan Dev, Majh, pg.100)

"Do thou only that by which filth may not attach to thee, and this soul of thine may remain awake in singing God's praises.

Meditate on the One Lord, and think not duality.

In the guild of saints repeat only the Name.

Rituals, duty, religious rites, fasting and worship are all covered recognising none else in sans the Supreme Lord.

Of him the toil is approved, whose affection is with his own Master.

Infinitely invaluable is that vegetarian (Vishnavite), says Nanak; who renounced sins."

( Guru Arjan Dev, Gauri, pg. 199)

"Let somone sing, someone hear, someone reflect on, someone preach the Name of God and somone fix it in his mind, he shall forthwith be saved. His sins shall be effaced, he shall become pure and his filth of many births shall be washed off. In this world and the next world, his countenance shall be bright, and mammon shall not affect him. He is the man of wisdom, he the vegetarian, he the divine and the man of wealth; He is the hero, and he is of high family, who has meditated on the Fortunate Lord."

( Guru Arjan Dev, Pauri, pg. 300)

"Self-conceit and wealth are all poison. Attached therewith, man ever suffers loss in this world. By pondering on the Name, the Guru-ward earns the profit of God's wealth. By placing God and God's elixir in the mind, the poison of the filth of ego is removed."

( Guru Ram Das, Slok, pg. 300)

"The attachment of all the visible objects is all impurity. Due to this, the mortal dies and is reborn again and again. Impurity is in fire, air and water. Within all the food, which we eat, there is pollution. Defilement is in mans actions as he performs not God's worship."

( Guru Amar Das, Gauri Guareri, pg. 229)

"Without the Name all, which man wears and eats is poison. By praising the True Name one merges in the True Master."

( Guru Nanak, Pauri, pg.144)

"The True food is the Lord's love. So says the True Guru. With the True food I am appeased and with Truth I am delighted."

( Guru Angad, Pauri, pg. 146)

The vegetable feels pain just as the animal does, there is no difference.

"See, that the sugarcane is sheared. After cleansing and chopping off its plumes, its feet are bound to form it into bundles. Placing it in between the wooden rollers of the press, they crush and award it punishment. Extracting the juice, they put it in the cauldron and it groans as it burns. Even the empty crushed cane is collected and is burnt in the fire. Nanak, how the sweet-leaved sugar-cane is treated, come and see, o people!"

( Guru Nanak, Slok, pg. 143)

Glorious God is compared not only to the fish and the net but also to a fisherman - a killer of fish for food.

"He Himself is the fisherman and the fish and Himself the water and the net. He Himself is the metal ball of the net and Himself the bait within."

( Guru Nanak, Sri Rag, pg. 23)

There is no difference between plants and animals. God in his perfection has designed all living things to eat what they eat. We eat meat as part of the natural order of all living things designed by God. Man has been eating meat and vegetables for millions of years, God has not designed meat eating human beings in error. The only things banned for Sikhs are all unnatural manipulations of natural foods - tobacco, drugs, alcohol all unnatural manipulations of vegetation, and all banned for Sikhs.

"When Thou art true, then all, that flows from Thee is true. Absolutely nothing is false. Talking, seeing, uttering, living, walking and perishing are from Thee, O' Lord! Nanak, the True Lord Himself creates by His order, and in His order He keeps all the beings."

(Guru Nanak, Slok, pg. 145)

"The tigers, hawks, kites and falcons, them the Lord causes to eat grass. Who eats grass, them He causes to eat meat. This way of life He can set agoing."

(Guru Nanak, Slok, pg. 144)

"God Himself has made the earth and Himself the sky. He of Himself created the beings therein, and of Himself puts morsels (food) in their mouths. All by Himself He pervades everywhere and Himself is the treasure of excellences. Remember Thou God's Name, O slave Nanak, and He shall efface all thine sins."

(Guru Ram Das, Slok, pg. 302)

"They walk in a single file, brush the ground before they lay their foot on it all this they do to avoid killing life, but it is God who giveth and taketh life."

(Guru Gobind Singh, 33 Swayyas, Dasam Granth)

"There is but one breath, all are identical in matter and among all the entire light is the same. The One Light is contained among all the different and diverse things."

(Guru Ram Das, Majh, pg. 96)

"Many millions of beings, the Lord has made of good many descriptions. From the Lord they emanated and into the Lord shall they be absorbed."

(Guru Arjan Dev, Ashtpadi, pg. 276)

"In forests, grass blades and mountains, the Supreme Lord is contained. As is His will so are His creatures acts. The Lord is in wind, water and fire. He is permeating the four quarters and ten directions. There is no place without Him."

(Guru Arjan Dev, Ashtpadi, pg. 294)

Amongst all the forms, the Lord Himself is contained.

Through all the eyes, He Himself is the beholder.

The whole creation is His Body.

His praises He Himself hears.

He has made coming and going as a play.

He has rendered mammon subservient to Him.

Though amidst everything He remains unattached.

Whatever is to be said, He Himself says.

By His order man comes and by His order he goes.

Nanak, when it pleases Him, He blends the mortal with Himself, than.

Whatever comes from Him, that cannot be bad.

.....All that He does must be accepted. Through Guru's grace, Nanak has come to know this.

(Guru Arjan Dev, Ashtpadi, pg. 294)

"I have heard the One Lord to be the treasure of imperishable peace. God is said to be fully filling the ocean, dry land, sky and every heart. He looks equally adorned amongst all the high and low, an ant and an elephant. The friends, comrades, sons and relatives are all created by Him."

(Guru Arjan Dev, Slok, pg. 319)

"His plays, He Himself enacts. Coming and going, visible and invisible and the entire world, He has made obedient to Himself."

(Guru Arjan Dev, Ashtpadi, pg. 281)

Meat prepared by the Muslim ritual slaughter is banned for Sikhs

"Yet holding the knife, the world they butcher. Wearing blue the rulers approval they seek; With money derived from mlechhas the Puranas they worship. Goats slaughtered over the unapproved Muslims texts they eat."

(Guru Nanak, Raga Asa, pg. 472)

[Hardeep__singh]

hmm! Yeh Randip keep eating meat and keep justifying it by incorrect things you have brought out by Dr and Scholars.

Your one of those people who thinks "Guru Granth Sahib is a ala carte menu" I used ur sentence because you use to justify eating meat, your the one that is treating it as a menu not us.

Its clearly written in Page 1103 of Guru Granth Sahib:

jIA bDhu su Drmu kir Qwphu ADrmu khhu kq BweI ] (1103-2, mwrU, Bgq kbIr jI)

jee-a baDhahu so Dharam kar thaapahu aDhram kahhu kat bhaa-ee.

You kill living beings, and call it a righteous action. Tell me, brother, what would you call an unrighteous action?

On page 1242:

kil hoeI kuqy muhI Kwju hoAw murdwru ] (1242-18, swrMg, mÚ 1)

kal ho-ee kutay muhee khaaj ho-aa murdaar.

In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; they eat rotting carcasses for food.

On page 1243:

rMnw hoeIAw boDIAw purs hoey seIAwd ] (1243-1, swrMg, mÚ 1)

rannaa ho-ee-aa boDhee-aa puras ho-ay sa-ee-aad.

Women have become advisors, and men have become hunters.

sIlu sMjmu suc BMnI Kwxw Kwju Ahwju ] (1243-2, swrMg, mÚ 1)

seel sanjam such bhannee khaanaa khaaj ahaaj.

Humility, self-control and purity have run away; people eat the uneatable, forbidden food.

Page 140:

Je ratu lagai kaprhaia jaamaa hoi pleet. Jo ratu pevahi maansaa tin kiyu nirmal cheet: Clothes stained with blood become impure. Similarly, O man, if you consume blood (and flesh, etc.) of other beings, then how you cannot have pure consciousness! (sggs 140).

Page 723:

gYbwn hYvwn hrwm kusqnI murdwr bKorwie ] (723-15, iqlµg, mÚ 5)

gaibaan haivaan haraam kustanee murdaar bakhoraa-ay.

Like a goblin, or a beast, they kill and eat the forbidden carcasses of meat.

idl kbj kbjw kwdro dojk sjwie ]2] (723-15, iqlµg, mÚ 5)

dil kabaj kabjaa kaadro dojak sajaa-ay. ||2||

So control your urges, or else you will be seized by the Lord, and thrown into the tortures of hell. ||2||

and on page 1377:

Kabir Bhaang maashulee sura paan jo jo praanee khaahi. Teerath barat nem keeye te sabhai rasaatal jaahi: Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine — no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell (sggs 1377).

page 50:

Jiyu kookar harkaayiyaa dhaavai dah dis jaaye. Lobhee jant na jaanayee bhukh abhakh sabh khaaye: Like the mad dog running around in all directions, the greedy person, unaware, consumes everything, edible and non-edible alike (sggs 50).

page 467:

Alu malu khaayee sir chhaayee paayee. Moorakh andhai pat gvaayee: One who eats filth corrupts his mind — the blind fool loses his honor (sggs 467)

So Randip, dont give me your lecture on eating meat is OK, because its not, Full Stop the above is authenticated literature of Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

hmm! Yeh Randip keep eating meat and keep justifying it by incorrect things you have brought out by Dr and Scholars.

Your one of those people who thinks "Guru Granth Sahib is a ala carte menu" I used ur sentence because you use to justify eating meat, your the one that is treating it as a menu not us.

Its clearly written in Page 1103 of Guru Granth Sahib:

jIA bDhu su Drmu kir Qwphu ADrmu khhu kq BweI ] (1103-2, mwrU, Bgq kbIr jI)

jee-a baDhahu so Dharam kar thaapahu aDhram kahhu kat bhaa-ee.

You kill living beings, and call it a righteous action. Tell me, brother, what would you call an unrighteous action?

On page 1242:

kil hoeI kuqy muhI Kwju hoAw murdwru ] (1242-18, swrMg, mÚ 1)

kal ho-ee kutay muhee khaaj ho-aa murdaar.

In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; they eat rotting carcasses for food.

On page 1243:

rMnw hoeIAw boDIAw purs hoey seIAwd ] (1243-1, swrMg, mÚ 1)

rannaa ho-ee-aa boDhee-aa puras ho-ay sa-ee-aad.

Women have become advisors, and men have become hunters.

sIlu sMjmu suc BMnI Kwxw Kwju Ahwju ] (1243-2, swrMg, mÚ 1)

seel sanjam such bhannee khaanaa khaaj ahaaj.

Humility, self-control and purity have run away; people eat the uneatable, forbidden food.

Page 140:

Je ratu lagai kaprhaia jaamaa hoi pleet. Jo ratu pevahi maansaa tin kiyu nirmal cheet: Clothes stained with blood become impure. Similarly, O man, if you consume blood (and flesh, etc.) of other beings, then how you cannot have pure consciousness! (sggs 140).

Page 723:

gYbwn hYvwn hrwm kusqnI murdwr bKorwie ] (723-15, iqlµg, mÚ 5)

gaibaan haivaan haraam kustanee murdaar bakhoraa-ay.

Like a goblin, or a beast, they kill and eat the forbidden carcasses of meat.

idl kbj kbjw kwdro dojk sjwie ]2] (723-15, iqlµg, mÚ 5)

dil kabaj kabjaa kaadro dojak sajaa-ay. ||2||

So control your urges, or else you will be seized by the Lord, and thrown into the tortures of hell. ||2||

and on page 1377:

Kabir Bhaang maashulee sura paan jo jo praanee khaahi. Teerath barat nem keeye te sabhai rasaatal jaahi: Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine — no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell (sggs 1377).

page 50:

Jiyu kookar harkaayiyaa dhaavai dah dis jaaye. Lobhee jant na jaanayee bhukh abhakh sabh khaaye: Like the mad dog running around in all directions, the greedy person, unaware, consumes everything, edible and non-edible alike (sggs 50).

page 467:

Alu malu khaayee sir chhaayee paayee. Moorakh andhai pat gvaayee: One who eats filth corrupts his mind — the blind fool loses his honor (sggs 467)

So Randip, dont give me your lecture on eating meat is OK, because its not, Full Stop the above is authenticated literature of Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

and what you said:

Also Baghat Sadhana was a butcher…….was he and his profession so bad that the Guru’s condemned him? No in fact they included his hymms in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

One evening, a customer came and asked Sadhna, "Weigh for me a leg of mutton."

Sadhna said, "There is no meat left now. Please come tomorrow and take it."

The customer said, "I need the meat badly now. I have very important guests and nothing to cook for them. Please you must help me out. I am a loyal, regular and old customer of your family's business. You may charge double the price for it."

Sadhna said, "If I slaughter a goat now, it will rot by tomorrow."

The man said, "You have no need to slaughter a goat. Just cut one leg and give it to me."

Pressed by the customer, Sadhna went near the goat with a hatchet. As he approached the goat, he felt as if the goat was laughing. This shocked Sadhna.

Then the goat said: "O' Sadhna, in your worldly greed, today you are going to open a new account of pain and misery. We have been going through many thousands of births and deaths; but never before has any of us cut a limb off a live animal. You are beginning a new level of cruelty!"

At this point, the hatchet fell out of Sadhna's hand and he turned to the customer to tell him of his helplessness. But there was no one there. He did not find any customer there. A thought came to Sadhna's mind, "It was the Lord Himself Who had come to reveal Himself to his devotee in the form of a customer."

With dedication and devotion, Bhagat Sadhna obtained salvation - "…. Kabir, …. Sadhana and Sain crossed over. Says Ravi Daas, listen, O Saints, through the Dear Lord, all is accomplished." (Sggs Page 1106).

The lord himself condemed him and he got salvation and after that his words got incorporated because he learnt the lesson and he wished to share it with others and this has got nothing to do with eating meat.

and thats bull there is no line in gurbani on page 141 as you suggest:

"Nanak, another's right is swine for him (the Musalman) and cow for him (the Hindu)."

(Guru Nanak, pg. 141)

Your wrong, read the page properly:

O Nanak, God shall preserve your honor. || 1 || FIRST MEHL: To take what rightfully belongs to another, is like a Muslim eating pork, or a Hindu eating beef. Our Guru, our Spiritual Guide, stands by us, if we do not eat those carcasses. By mere talk, people do not earn passage to Heaven. Salvation comes only from the practice of Truth. By adding spices to forbidden foods, they are not made acceptable. O Nanak, from false talk, only falsehood is obtained. || 2 || FIRST MEHL: There are five prayers and five times of day for prayer; the five have five names. Let the first be truthfulness, the second honest living, and the third charity in the Name of God. Let the fourth be good will to all, and the fifth the praise of the Lord. Repeat the prayer of good deeds, and then, you may call yourself a Muslim. O Nanak, the false obtain falsehood, and only falsehood. || 3 || PAUREE: Some trade in priceless jewels, while others deal in mere glass. When the True Guru is pleased, we find the treasure of the jewel, deep within the self. Without the Guru, no one has found this treasure. The blind and the false have died in their endless wanderings. The self-willed manmukhs putrefy and die in duality. They do not understand contemplative meditation. Without the One Lord, there is no other at all. Unto whom should they complain? Some are destitute, and wander around endlessly, while others have storehouses of wealth. Without God's Name, there is no other wealth. Everything else is just poison and ashes. O Nanak, the Lord Himself acts, and causes others to act; by the Hukam of His Command, we are embellished and exalted. || 7 || SHALOK, FIRST MEHL: It is difficult to be called a Muslim; if one is truly a Muslim, then he may be called one. First, let him savor the religion of the Prophet as sweet; then, let his pride of his possessions be scraped away. Becoming a true Muslim, a disciple of the faith of Mohammed, let him put aside the delusion of death and life. As he submits to God's Will, and surrenders to the Creator, he is rid of selfishness and conceit. And when, O Nanak, he is merciful to all beings, only then shall he be called a Muslim. || 1 || FOURTH MEHL: Renounce sexual desire, anger, falsehood and slander; forsake Maya and eliminate egotistical pride. Renounce sexual desire and promiscuity, and give up emotional attachment. Only then shall you obtain the Immaculate Lord amidst the darkness of the world. Renounce selfishness, conceit and arrogant pride, and your love for your children and spouse. Abandon your thirsty hopes and desires, and embrace love for the Lord. O Nanak, the True One shall come to dwell in your mind. Through the True Word of the Shabad, you shall be absorbed in the Name of the Lord. || 2 || PAUREE: Neither the kings, nor their subjects, nor the leaders shall remain. The shops, the cities and the streets shall eventually disintegrate, by the Hukam of the Lord's Command. Those solid and beautiful mansions - the fools think that they belong to them. The treasure-houses, filled with wealth, shall be emptied out in an instant. The horses, chariots, camels and elephants, with all their decorations; the gardens, lands, houses, tents, soft beds and satin pavilions - Oh, where are those things, which they believe to be their own? O Nanak, the True One is the Giver of all; He is revealed through His All-powerful Creative Nature. || 8 || SHALOK, FIRST MEHL: If the rivers became cows, giving milk, and the spring water became milk and ghee;

From this notion, Randip, your revealing falsehood and you dont even know what your talking about to be honest. So take your meat eating topics where they really belong to, in the BIN!

Prove that the hukamnamas are true, what next you going to say I read so and so by Dr this and that, read the granth and find out.

[randip singh]

hmm! Yeh Randip keep eating meat and keep justifying it by incorrect things you have brought out by Dr and Scholars.

Not incorrect at all……..its what our best Sikh brains have interpreted our teachings to be.

Your one of those people who thinks "Guru Granth Sahib is a ala carte menu" I used ur sentence because you use to justify eating meat, your the one that is treating it as a menu not us.

Incorrect again.

I am not bashing meat eaters or vegetarians. I have a problem with none of these people. In fact I personally think people eat far too much read meat, butter, sweets and fatty stuff generally.

You on the other hand have a set point of view and seek to use the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji as tool to bash peoples eating habits. I say eat what is good for your mind and body and leave eating meat or not as a personal choice.

Its clearly written in Page 1103 of Guru Granth Sahib:

jIA bDhu su Drmu kir Qwphu ADrmu khhu kq BweI ] (1103-2, mwrU, Bgq kbIr jI)

jee-a baDhahu so Dharam kar thaapahu aDhram kahhu kat bhaa-ee.

You kill living beings, and call it a righteous action. Tell me, brother, what would you call an unrighteous action?

Again quoted out of context, as we shall demonstrate:

Again let us put this into its correct context:

ik-oNkaar satgur parsaad.

jeevat pitar na maanai ko-oo moo-ayN siraaDh karaahee.

pitar bhee bapuray kaho ki-o paavahi ka-oo-aa kookar khaahee.

mo ka-o kusal bataavhu ko-ee.

kusal kusal kartay jag binsai kusal bhee kaisay ho-ee. rahaa-o.

maatee kay kar dayvee dayvaa tis aagai jee-o dayhee.

aisay pitar tumaaray kahee-ahi aapan kahi-aa na layhee.

sarjee-o kaateh nirjee-o poojeh ant kaal ka-o bhaaree.

raam naam kee gat nahee jaanee bhai doobay sansaaree.

dayvee dayvaa poojeh doleh paarbarahm nahee jaanaa.

kahat kabeer akul nahee chayti-aa bikhi-aa si-o laptaanaa.

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

He does not honor his ancestors while they are alive, but he holds feasts in their honor after they have died.

Tell me, how can his poor ancestors receive what the crows and the dogs have eaten up?

If only someone would tell me what real happiness is!

Speaking of happiness and joy, the world is perishing. How can happiness be found?Pause

Making gods and goddesses out of clay, people sacrifice living beings to them.

Such are your dead ancestors, who cannot ask for what they want.

You murder living beings and worship lifeless things; at your very last moment, you shall suffer in terrible pain.

You do not know the value of the Lord's Name; you shall drown in the terrifying world-ocean.

You worship gods and goddesses, but you do not know the Supreme Lord God.

Says Kabeer, you have not remembered the Lord who has no ancestors; you are clinging to your corrupt ways.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

Quite clearly when put into context this is nothing to do with meat eating. What is being alluded to is Hindu sacrificial rituals (eg Anustarani http://www.sanskrit.org/www/Rites%20of%20P...ncestors2.html) where animals were sacrificed on the funeral pyre, ancestors or to deities. Yet the Brahmins who performed these rituals were themselves devout vegetarians. This is a comment about the futility of animal sacrifices to stone idols and dead ancestors. It is a comment on hypocrisy.

On page 1242:

kil hoeI kuqy muhI Kwju hoAw murdwru ] (1242-18, swrMg, mÚ 1)

kal ho-ee kutay muhee khaaj ho-aa murdaar.

In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; they eat rotting carcasses for food.

Again, let us put this into context:

salok mehlaa 1.

kal ho-ee kutay muhee khaaj ho-aa murdaar.

koorh bol bol bha-ukanaa chookaa Dharam beechaar.

jin jeevandi-aa pat nahee mu-i-aa mandee so-ay.

likhi-aa hovai naankaa kartaa karay so ho-ay.

Shalok, First Mehl:

In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; they eat rotting carcasses for food.

They bark and speak, telling only lies; all thought of righteousness has left them.

Those who have no honor while alive, will have an evil reputation after they die.

Whatever is predestined, happens, O Nanak; whatever the Creator does, comes to pass.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

At first glance one notices that this paragraph is clearly a metaphor for people who behave like dogs. The dog is a scavenger, hunts in packs, fights within its pack, eats practically anything it can find etc etc. This entire Ang talks about people greed and those that lack honour when they are alive.

The second point to note is the mistranslation. Murdaar is not the word for meat. Murdaar is a reference to people who are dead. In other words people are acting so much like dogs that when people have died they gather round to get as much as they can. A good analogy would be inheritance, where is some instances people try and contest them or try and grab for themselves as much as they can. In India, it has not been unusual to murder siblings of inheritance disputes. In fact the word Murder in the English language has come from the word Murdaar.

On page 1243:

rMnw hoeIAw boDIAw purs hoey seIAwd ] (1243-1, swrMg, mÚ 1)

rannaa ho-ee-aa boDhee-aa puras ho-ay sa-ee-aad.

Women have become advisors, and men have become hunters.

sIlu sMjmu suc BMnI Kwxw Kwju Ahwju ] (1243-2, swrMg, mÚ 1)

seel sanjam such bhannee khaanaa khaaj ahaaj.

Humility, self-control and purity have run away; people eat the uneatable, forbidden food. .

Sorry friend nothing to do with meat eating. More to do probably with sexual conduct:

mÚ 1 ] (1243-1)

mehlaa 1.

First Mehl:

rannaa ho-ee-aa boDhee-aa puras ho-ay sa-ee-aad.

Women have become advisors, and men have become hunters.

seel sanjam such bhannee khaanaa khaaj ahaaj.

Humility, self-control and purity have run away; people eat the uneatable, forbidden food.

saram ga-i-aa ghar aapnai pat uth chalee naal.

Modesty has left her home, and honor has gone away with her.

naanak sachaa ayk hai a-or na sachaa bhaal. ||2||

O Nanak, there is only One True Lord; do not bother to search for any other as true. ||2||

An equivalent is in the Bible when Adam ate the forbidden food….the apple.

Page 140:

Je ratu lagai kaprhaia jaamaa hoi pleet. Jo ratu pevahi maansaa tin kiyu nirmal cheet: Clothes stained with blood become impure. Similarly, O man, if you consume blood (and flesh, etc.) of other beings, then how you cannot have pure consciousness! (sggs 140).

Totally and utterly out of context. This shabad is about people exploiting others….quite literally sucking the blood of fellow humans….and to confirm….here is the shabad:

salok mehlaa 1.

Shalok, First Mehl:

jay rat lagai kaprhai jaamaa ho-ay paleet.

If one's clothes are stained with blood, the garment becomes polluted.

jo rat peeveh maansaa tin ki-o nirmal cheet.

Those who suck the blood of human beings-how can their consciousness be pure?

naanak naa-o khudaa-ay kaa dil hachhai mukh layho.

O Nanak, chant the Name of God, with heart-felt devotion.

avar divaajay dunee kay jhoothay amal karayhu. ||1||

Everything else is just a pompous worldly show, and the practice of false deeds. ||1||

Page 723:

gYbwn hYvwn hrwm kusqnI murdwr bKorwie ] (723-15, iqlµg, mÚ 5)

gaibaan haivaan haraam kustanee murdaar bakhoraa-ay.

Like a goblin, or a beast, they kill and eat the forbidden carcasses of meat.

idl kbj kbjw kwdro dojk sjwie ]2] (723-15, iqlµg, mÚ 5)

dil kabaj kabjaa kaadro dojak sajaa-ay. ||2||

So control your urges, or else you will be seized by the Lord, and thrown into the tortures of hell. ||2||

Again taken out of context and mistranslated:

Firstly the worg “Murdaar” refers to dead people…..this is about people exploiting other people. A metaphor. Do you understand that? The use of the word Haraam is significant.

Here is the entire ang:

tilang mehlaa 5 ghar 1

Tilang, Fifth Mehl, First House:

ik-oNkaar satgur parsaad.

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

khaak noor kardaN aalam dunee-aa-ay.

The Lord infused His Light into the dust, and created the world, the universe.

asmaan jimee darkhat aab paidaa-is khudaa-ay. ||1||

The sky, the earth, the trees, and the water - all are the Creation of the Lord. ||1||

banday chasam deedaN fanaa-ay.

O human being, whatever you can see with your eyes, shall perish.

duneeN-aa murdaar khurdanee gaafal havaa-ay. rahaa-o.

The world eats dead carcasses, living by neglect and greed. ||Pause||

gaibaan haivaan haraam kustanee murdaar bakhoraa-ay.

Like a goblin, or a beast, they kill and eat the forbidden carcasses of meat.

dil kabaj kabjaa kaadro dojak sajaa-ay. ||2||

So control your urges, or else you will be seized by the Lord, and thrown into the tortures of hell. ||2||

valee ni-aamat biraadaraa darbaar milak khaanaa-ay.

Your benefactors, presents, companions, courts, lands and homes

jab ajraa-eel bastanee tab chay kaaray bidaa-ay. ||3||

- when Azraa-eel, the Messenger of Death seizes you, what good will these be to you then? ||3||

)

havaal maaloom kardaN paak alaah.

The Pure Lord God knows your condition.

bugo naanak ardaas pays darvays bandaah. ||4||1||

O Nanak, recite your prayer to the holy people. ||4||1||

Puttting this into context, it is quite clear this is about exploitation of huma beings, with refrences to neglect and greed being present.

and on page 1377:

Kabir Bhaang maashulee sura paan jo jo praanee khaahi. Teerath barat nem keeye te sabhai rasaatal jaahi: Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine — no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell (sggs 1377).

Again taken out of context…….lets look at the deeper meaning….not the Vaishnav Hindu interpretation:

In this instance let us firstly add the Gurmukhi with the English:

mukat padaarath paa-ee-ai thaak na avghat ghaat. 231

kabeer ayk gharhee aaDhee gharee aaDhee hooN tay aaDh.

bhagtan saytee gostay jo keenay so laabh. 232

kabeer bhaaNg maachhulee suraa paan jo jo paraanee khaaNhi.

tirath barat naym kee-ay tay sabhai rasaatal jaaNhi. 233

neechay lo-in kar raha-o lay saajan ghat maahi.

sabh ras khayla-o pee-a sa-o kisee lakhaava-o naahi. 234

aath jaam cha-usath gharee tu-a nirkhat rahai jee-o.

neechay lo-in ki-o kara-o sabh ghat daykh-a-u pee-o. 235

sun sakhee pee-a meh jee-o basai jee-a meh basai ke pee-o.

jee-o pee-o boojha-o nahee ghat meh jee-o ke pee-o. 236

kabeer baaman guroo hai jagat kaa bhagtan kaa gur naahi.

arajh urajh kai pach moo-aa chaara-o baydahu maahi.237

har hai khaaNd rayt meh bikhree haathee chunee na jaa-ay.

kahi kabeer gur bhalee bujhaa-ee keetee ho-ay kai khaa-ay. 238

kabeer ja-o tuhi saaDh piramm kee sees kaat kar go-ay.

khaylat khaylat haal kar jo kichh ho-ay ta ho-ay. 239

kabeer ja-o tuhi saaDh piramm kee paakay saytee khayl.

kaachee sarsa-uN payl kai naa khal bha-ee na tayl.240

dhooNdhat doleh anDh gat ar cheenat naahee sant.

kahi naamaa ki-o paa-ee-ai bin bhagtahu bhagvant. 241

har so heeraa chhaad kai karahi aan kee aas.

tay nar dojak jaahigay sat bhaakhai ravidaas. 242

kabeer ja-o garihu karahi ta Dharam kar naahee ta kar bairaag.

bairaagee banDhan karai taa ko bado abhaag. 243

He obtains the treasure of liberation, and the difficult road to the Lord is not blocked. 231

Kabeer, whether is is for an hour, half an hour, or half of that,

whatever it is, it is worthwhile to speak with the Holy. 232

Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine -

no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. 233

Kabeer, I keep my eyes lowered, and enshrine my Friend within my heart.

I enjoy all pleasures with my Beloved, but I do not let anyone else know.234

Twenty-four hours a day, every hour, my soul continues to look to You, O Lord.

Why should I keep my eyes lowered? I see my Beloved in every heart. 235

Listen, O my companions: my soul dwells in my Beloved, and my Beloved dwells in my soul.

I realize that there is no difference between my soul and my Beloved; I cannot tell whether my soul or my Beloved dwells in my heart. 236

Kabeer, the Brahmin may be the guru of the world, but he is not the Guru of the devotees.

He rots and dies in the perplexities of the four Vedas. 237

The Lord is like sugar, scattered in the sand; the elephant cannot pick it up.

Says Kabeer, the Guru has given me this sublime understanding: become an ant, and feed on it. 238

Kabeer, if you desire to play the game of love with the Lord, then cut off your head, and make it into a ball.

Lose yourself in the play of it, and then whatever will be, will be. 239

Kabeer, if you desire to play the game of love with the Lord, play it with someone with

committment.

Pressing the unripe mustard seeds produces neither oil nor flour. 240

Searching, the mortal stumbles like a blind person, and does not recognize the Saint.

Says Naam Dayv, how can one obtain the Lord God, without His devotee?

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

Taking out the sentence we see

kabeer bhaaNg maachhulee suraa paan jo jo paraanee khaaNhi.

Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine –

tirath barat naym kee-ay tay sabhai rasaatal jaaNhi. 233

no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. 233

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

Firstly note that maachlee is not flesh, but is indeed fish. The word in Punjabi for flesh is maas. Then secondly one must ask, why is there a forbidding in the consumption of fish specifically. The answer lies in reading the entire paragraph and a picture emerges. In the last two lines the statement is made:

[/i]

kabeer ja-o garihu karahi ta Dharam kar naahee ta kar bairaag.

Kabeer, if you live the householder's life, then practice righteousness; otherwise, you might as well retire from the world.

bairaagee banDhan karai taa ko bado abhaag. 243

If someone renounces the world, and then gets involved in worldly entanglements, he shall suffer terrible misfortune. 243

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

[/i]

Now putting this in its entire context what Bhagat Kabir is actually criticising in the rich and those in power. The thrill seekers, who are addicted to their senses and those addicted to the 5 thieves. Kabir was born around the area of Benares, and was brought up in a poor Muslim weavers family. He saw the excesses of the rich around him, while the poor starved. Foods like fish and wine were associated with the rich who had an excessive disposable income. Marijuana was associated with either idol people or those who had time and money to waste. Kabir abhorred this, and this statement is a social comment about the excesses of the rich. At the end he clearly states, that those people who do their duties as householders (i.e. work hard, care for other etc) are the ones who will be liberated, and those who live by excesses will suffer. One cantherefore clearly see that this is in no way a comment about eating meat (because of mistranslation) or about avoiding certain foods (as has been misrepresented).

page 50:

Jiyu kookar harkaayiyaa dhaavai dah dis jaaye. Lobhee jant na jaanayee bhukh abhakh sabh khaaye: Like the mad dog running around in all directions, the greedy person, unaware, consumes everything, edible and non-edible alike (sggs 50).

Putting this into context this appears to be talking about people who are addicted to Kaam, Krodh, Moh, Lob and Hankaar:

Here is the entire shabad:

sireeraag mehlaa 5.

Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl:

mithaa kar kai khaa-i-aa ka-urhaa upji-aa saad.

People eat what they believe to be sweet, but it turns out to be bitter in taste.

bhaa-ee meet surid kee-ay bikhi-aa rachi-aa baad.

They attach their affections to brothers and friends, uselessly engrossed in corruption.

jaaNday bilam na hova-ee vin naavai bismaad. ||1||

They vanish without a moment's delay; without God's Name, they are stunned and amazed. ||1||

mayray man satgur kee sayvaa laag.

O my mind, attach yourself to the service of the True Guru.

jo deesai so vinsanaa man kee mat ti-aag. ||1|| rahaa-o.

Whatever is seen, shall pass away. Abandon the intellectualizations of your mind. ||1||Pause||

ji-o kookar harkaa-i-aa Dhaavai dah dis jaa-ay.

Like the mad dog running around in all directions,

lobhee jant na jaan-ee bhakh abhakh sabh khaa-ay.

the greedy person, unaware, consumes everything, edible and non-edible alike.

kaam kroDh mad bi-aapi-aa fir fir jonee paa-ay. ||2||

Engrossed in the intoxication of sexual desire and anger, people wander through reincarnation over and over again. ||2||

maa-i-aa jaal pasaari-aa bheetar chog banaa-ay.

Maya has spread out her net, and in it, she has placed the bait.

tarisnaa pankhee faasi-aa nikas na paa-ay maa-ay.

The bird of desire is caught, and cannot find any escape, O my mother.

jin keetaa tiseh na jaan-ee fir fir aavai jaa-ay. ||3||

One who does not know the Lord who created him, comes and goes in reincarnation over and over again. ||3||

anik parkaaree mohi-aa baho biDh ih sansaar.

By various devices, and in so many ways, this world is enticed.

jis no rakhai so rahai samrith purakh apaar.

They alone are saved, whom the All-powerful, Infinite Lord protects.

har jan har liv uDhray naanak sad balihaar. ||4||21||91||

The servants of the Lord are saved by the Love of the Lord. O Nanak, I am forever a sacrifice to them. ||4||21||91||

The sentence “Engrossed in the intoxication of sexual desire and anger, people wander through reincarnation over and over again.” seems to confirm this. This is not about meat at all.

page 467:

Alu malu khaayee sir chhaayee paayee. Moorakh andhai pat gvaayee: One who eats filth corrupts his mind — the blind fool loses his honor (sggs 467)

This shabad again has nothing to do with meat but appears to be talking about the stae of man without Waheguru:

mehlaa 1.

First Mehl:

likh likh parhi-aa.

The more one write and reads,

taytaa karhi-aa.

the more one burns.

baho tirath bhavi-aa.

The more one wanders at sacred shrines of pilgrimage,

tayto lavi-aa.

the more one talks uselessly.

baho bhaykh kee-aa dayhee dukh dee-aa.

The more one wears religious robes, the more pain he causes his body.

saho vay jee-aa apnaa kee-aa.

O my soul, you must endure the consequences of your own actions.

ann na khaa-i-aa saad gavaa-i-aa.

One who does not eat the corn, misses out on the taste.

baho dukh paa-i-aa doojaa bhaa-i-aa.

One obtains great pain, in the love of duality.

bastar na pahirai.

One who does not wear any clothes,

ahinis kahrai.

suffers night and day.

mon vigootaa.

Through silence, he is ruined.

ki-o jaagai gur bin sootaa.

How can the sleeping one be awakened without the Guru?

pag upaytaanaa.

One who goes barefoot

apnaa kee-aa kamaanaa.

suffers by his own actions.

al mal khaa-ee sir chhaa-ee paa-ee.

One who eats filth and throws ashes on his head

moorakh anDhai pat gavaa-ee.

- the blind fool loses his honor.

)

vin naavai kichh thaa-ay na paa-ee.

Without the Name, nothing is of any use.

rahai baybaanee marhee masaanee.

One who lives in the wilderness, in cemetaries and cremation grounds

anDh na jaanai fir pachhutaanee.

- that blind man does not know the Lord; he regrets and repents in the end

The fact this is to do with the state of man without his/her Guru is confirmed by “Without the Name, nothing is of any use.”. So without Naam everything else is usless.

The practice of eating filth and throwing ashes on the head was carried out by Sadhu’s………so again nothing to do with meat.

So Randip, dont give me your lecture on eating meat is OK, because its not, Full Stop the above is authenticated literature of Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

The above is authentic but your interpretation flawed and quoting out of context is plain wrong. Again you are trying to cause a division amongst Sikhs where there is none.

I think you should have paid attention in lectures then you may have understood the basic teachings of Bani. :D

[Hardeep__singh]

hmm! Yeh Randip keep eating meat and keep justifying it by incorrect things you have brought out by Dr and Scholars.

Not incorrect at all……..its what our best Sikh brains have interpreted our teachings to be.

Your one of those people who thinks "Guru Granth Sahib is a ala carte menu" I used ur sentence because you use to justify eating meat, your the one that is treating it as a menu not us.

Incorrect again.

I am not bashing meat eaters or vegetarians. I have a problem with none of these people. In fact I personally think people eat far too much read meat, butter, sweets and fatty stuff generally.

You on the other hand have a set point of view and seek to use the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji as tool to bash peoples eating habits. I say eat what is good for your mind and body and leave eating meat or not as a personal choice.

Its clearly written in Page 1103 of Guru Granth Sahib:

jIA bDhu su Drmu kir Qwphu ADrmu khhu kq BweI ] (1103-2, mwrU, Bgq kbIr jI)

jee-a baDhahu so Dharam kar thaapahu aDhram kahhu kat bhaa-ee.

You kill living beings, and call it a righteous action. Tell me, brother, what would you call an unrighteous action?

Again quoted out of context, as we shall demonstrate:

Again let us put this into its correct context:

ik-oNkaar satgur parsaad.

jeevat pitar na maanai ko-oo moo-ayN siraaDh karaahee.

pitar bhee bapuray kaho ki-o paavahi ka-oo-aa kookar khaahee.

mo ka-o kusal bataavhu ko-ee.

kusal kusal kartay jag binsai kusal bhee kaisay ho-ee. rahaa-o.

maatee kay kar dayvee dayvaa tis aagai jee-o dayhee.

aisay pitar tumaaray kahee-ahi aapan kahi-aa na layhee.

sarjee-o kaateh nirjee-o poojeh ant kaal ka-o bhaaree.

raam naam kee gat nahee jaanee bhai doobay sansaaree.

dayvee dayvaa poojeh doleh paarbarahm nahee jaanaa.

kahat kabeer akul nahee chayti-aa bikhi-aa si-o laptaanaa.

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

He does not honor his ancestors while they are alive, but he holds feasts in their honor after they have died.

Tell me, how can his poor ancestors receive what the crows and the dogs have eaten up?

If only someone would tell me what real happiness is!

Speaking of happiness and joy, the world is perishing. How can happiness be found?Pause

Making gods and goddesses out of clay, people sacrifice living beings to them.

Such are your dead ancestors, who cannot ask for what they want.

You murder living beings and worship lifeless things; at your very last moment, you shall suffer in terrible pain.

You do not know the value of the Lord's Name; you shall drown in the terrifying world-ocean.

You worship gods and goddesses, but you do not know the Supreme Lord God.

Says Kabeer, you have not remembered the Lord who has no ancestors; you are clinging to your corrupt ways.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

Quite clearly when put into context this is nothing to do with meat eating. What is being alluded to is Hindu sacrificial rituals (eg Anustarani http://www.sanskrit.org/www/Rites%20of%20P...ncestors2.html) where animals were sacrificed on the funeral pyre, ancestors or to deities. Yet the Brahmins who performed these rituals were themselves devout vegetarians. This is a comment about the futility of animal sacrifices to stone idols and dead ancestors. It is a comment on hypocrisy.

On page 1242:

kil hoeI kuqy muhI Kwju hoAw murdwru ] (1242-18, swrMg, mÚ 1)

kal ho-ee kutay muhee khaaj ho-aa murdaar.

In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; they eat rotting carcasses for food.

Again, let us put this into context:

salok mehlaa 1.

kal ho-ee kutay muhee khaaj ho-aa murdaar.

koorh bol bol bha-ukanaa chookaa Dharam beechaar.

jin jeevandi-aa pat nahee mu-i-aa mandee so-ay.

likhi-aa hovai naankaa kartaa karay so ho-ay.

Shalok, First Mehl:

In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; they eat rotting carcasses for food.

They bark and speak, telling only lies; all thought of righteousness has left them.

Those who have no honor while alive, will have an evil reputation after they die.

Whatever is predestined, happens, O Nanak; whatever the Creator does, comes to pass.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

At first glance one notices that this paragraph is clearly a metaphor for people who behave like dogs. The dog is a scavenger, hunts in packs, fights within its pack, eats practically anything it can find etc etc. This entire Ang talks about people greed and those that lack honour when they are alive.

The second point to note is the mistranslation. Murdaar is not the word for meat. Murdaar is a reference to people who are dead. In other words people are acting so much like dogs that when people have died they gather round to get as much as they can. A good analogy would be inheritance, where is some instances people try and contest them or try and grab for themselves as much as they can. In India, it has not been unusual to murder siblings of inheritance disputes. In fact the word Murder in the English language has come from the word Murdaar.

On page 1243:

rMnw hoeIAw boDIAw purs hoey seIAwd ] (1243-1, swrMg, mÚ 1)

rannaa ho-ee-aa boDhee-aa puras ho-ay sa-ee-aad.

Women have become advisors, and men have become hunters.

sIlu sMjmu suc BMnI Kwxw Kwju Ahwju ] (1243-2, swrMg, mÚ 1)

seel sanjam such bhannee khaanaa khaaj ahaaj.

Humility, self-control and purity have run away; people eat the uneatable, forbidden food. .

Sorry friend nothing to do with meat eating. More to do probably with sexual conduct:

mÚ 1 ] (1243-1)

mehlaa 1.

First Mehl:

rannaa ho-ee-aa boDhee-aa puras ho-ay sa-ee-aad.

Women have become advisors, and men have become hunters.

seel sanjam such bhannee khaanaa khaaj ahaaj.

Humility, self-control and purity have run away; people eat the uneatable, forbidden food.

saram ga-i-aa ghar aapnai pat uth chalee naal.

Modesty has left her home, and honor has gone away with her.

naanak sachaa ayk hai a-or na sachaa bhaal. ||2||

O Nanak, there is only One True Lord; do not bother to search for any other as true. ||2||

An equivalent is in the Bible when Adam ate the forbidden food….the apple.

Page 140:

Je ratu lagai kaprhaia jaamaa hoi pleet. Jo ratu pevahi maansaa tin kiyu nirmal cheet: Clothes stained with blood become impure. Similarly, O man, if you consume blood (and flesh, etc.) of other beings, then how you cannot have pure consciousness! (sggs 140).

Totally and utterly out of context. This shabad is about people exploiting others….quite literally sucking the blood of fellow humans….and to confirm….here is the shabad:

salok mehlaa 1.

Shalok, First Mehl:

jay rat lagai kaprhai jaamaa ho-ay paleet.

If one's clothes are stained with blood, the garment becomes polluted.

jo rat peeveh maansaa tin ki-o nirmal cheet.

Those who suck the blood of human beings-how can their consciousness be pure?

naanak naa-o khudaa-ay kaa dil hachhai mukh layho.

O Nanak, chant the Name of God, with heart-felt devotion.

avar divaajay dunee kay jhoothay amal karayhu. ||1||

Everything else is just a pompous worldly show, and the practice of false deeds. ||1||

Page 723:

gYbwn hYvwn hrwm kusqnI murdwr bKorwie ] (723-15, iqlµg, mÚ 5)

gaibaan haivaan haraam kustanee murdaar bakhoraa-ay.

Like a goblin, or a beast, they kill and eat the forbidden carcasses of meat.

idl kbj kbjw kwdro dojk sjwie ]2] (723-15, iqlµg, mÚ 5)

dil kabaj kabjaa kaadro dojak sajaa-ay. ||2||

So control your urges, or else you will be seized by the Lord, and thrown into the tortures of hell. ||2||

Again taken out of context and mistranslated:

Firstly the worg “Murdaar” refers to dead people…..this is about people exploiting other people. A metaphor. Do you understand that? The use of the word Haraam is significant.

Here is the entire ang:

tilang mehlaa 5 ghar 1

Tilang, Fifth Mehl, First House:

ik-oNkaar satgur parsaad.

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

khaak noor kardaN aalam dunee-aa-ay.

The Lord infused His Light into the dust, and created the world, the universe.

asmaan jimee darkhat aab paidaa-is khudaa-ay. ||1||

The sky, the earth, the trees, and the water - all are the Creation of the Lord. ||1||

banday chasam deedaN fanaa-ay.

O human being, whatever you can see with your eyes, shall perish.

duneeN-aa murdaar khurdanee gaafal havaa-ay. rahaa-o.

The world eats dead carcasses, living by neglect and greed. ||Pause||

gaibaan haivaan haraam kustanee murdaar bakhoraa-ay.

Like a goblin, or a beast, they kill and eat the forbidden carcasses of meat.

dil kabaj kabjaa kaadro dojak sajaa-ay. ||2||

So control your urges, or else you will be seized by the Lord, and thrown into the tortures of hell. ||2||

valee ni-aamat biraadaraa darbaar milak khaanaa-ay.

Your benefactors, presents, companions, courts, lands and homes

jab ajraa-eel bastanee tab chay kaaray bidaa-ay. ||3||

- when Azraa-eel, the Messenger of Death seizes you, what good will these be to you then? ||3||

)

havaal maaloom kardaN paak alaah.

The Pure Lord God knows your condition.

bugo naanak ardaas pays darvays bandaah. ||4||1||

O Nanak, recite your prayer to the holy people. ||4||1||

Puttting this into context, it is quite clear this is about exploitation of huma beings, with refrences to neglect and greed being present.

and on page 1377:

Kabir Bhaang maashulee sura paan jo jo praanee khaahi. Teerath barat nem keeye te sabhai rasaatal jaahi: Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine — no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell (sggs 1377).

Again taken out of context…….lets look at the deeper meaning….not the Vaishnav Hindu interpretation:

In this instance let us firstly add the Gurmukhi with the English:

mukat padaarath paa-ee-ai thaak na avghat ghaat. 231

kabeer ayk gharhee aaDhee gharee aaDhee hooN tay aaDh.

bhagtan saytee gostay jo keenay so laabh. 232

kabeer bhaaNg maachhulee suraa paan jo jo paraanee khaaNhi.

tirath barat naym kee-ay tay sabhai rasaatal jaaNhi. 233

neechay lo-in kar raha-o lay saajan ghat maahi.

sabh ras khayla-o pee-a sa-o kisee lakhaava-o naahi. 234

aath jaam cha-usath gharee tu-a nirkhat rahai jee-o.

neechay lo-in ki-o kara-o sabh ghat daykh-a-u pee-o. 235

sun sakhee pee-a meh jee-o basai jee-a meh basai ke pee-o.

jee-o pee-o boojha-o nahee ghat meh jee-o ke pee-o. 236

kabeer baaman guroo hai jagat kaa bhagtan kaa gur naahi.

arajh urajh kai pach moo-aa chaara-o baydahu maahi.237

har hai khaaNd rayt meh bikhree haathee chunee na jaa-ay.

kahi kabeer gur bhalee bujhaa-ee keetee ho-ay kai khaa-ay. 238

kabeer ja-o tuhi saaDh piramm kee sees kaat kar go-ay.

khaylat khaylat haal kar jo kichh ho-ay ta ho-ay. 239

kabeer ja-o tuhi saaDh piramm kee paakay saytee khayl.

kaachee sarsa-uN payl kai naa khal bha-ee na tayl.240

dhooNdhat doleh anDh gat ar cheenat naahee sant.

kahi naamaa ki-o paa-ee-ai bin bhagtahu bhagvant. 241

har so heeraa chhaad kai karahi aan kee aas.

tay nar dojak jaahigay sat bhaakhai ravidaas. 242

kabeer ja-o garihu karahi ta Dharam kar naahee ta kar bairaag.

bairaagee banDhan karai taa ko bado abhaag. 243

He obtains the treasure of liberation, and the difficult road to the Lord is not blocked. 231

Kabeer, whether is is for an hour, half an hour, or half of that,

whatever it is, it is worthwhile to speak with the Holy. 232

Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine -

no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. 233

Kabeer, I keep my eyes lowered, and enshrine my Friend within my heart.

I enjoy all pleasures with my Beloved, but I do not let anyone else know.234

Twenty-four hours a day, every hour, my soul continues to look to You, O Lord.

Why should I keep my eyes lowered? I see my Beloved in every heart. 235

Listen, O my companions: my soul dwells in my Beloved, and my Beloved dwells in my soul.

I realize that there is no difference between my soul and my Beloved; I cannot tell whether my soul or my Beloved dwells in my heart. 236

Kabeer, the Brahmin may be the guru of the world, but he is not the Guru of the devotees.

He rots and dies in the perplexities of the four Vedas. 237

The Lord is like sugar, scattered in the sand; the elephant cannot pick it up.

Says Kabeer, the Guru has given me this sublime understanding: become an ant, and feed on it. 238

Kabeer, if you desire to play the game of love with the Lord, then cut off your head, and make it into a ball.

Lose yourself in the play of it, and then whatever will be, will be. 239

Kabeer, if you desire to play the game of love with the Lord, play it with someone with

committment.

Pressing the unripe mustard seeds produces neither oil nor flour. 240

Searching, the mortal stumbles like a blind person, and does not recognize the Saint.

Says Naam Dayv, how can one obtain the Lord God, without His devotee?

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

Taking out the sentence we see

kabeer bhaaNg maachhulee suraa paan jo jo paraanee khaaNhi.

Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine –

tirath barat naym kee-ay tay sabhai rasaatal jaaNhi. 233

no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. 233

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

Firstly note that maachlee is not flesh, but is indeed fish. The word in Punjabi for flesh is maas. Then secondly one must ask, why is there a forbidding in the consumption of fish specifically. The answer lies in reading the entire paragraph and a picture emerges. In the last two lines the statement is made:

[/i]

kabeer ja-o garihu karahi ta Dharam kar naahee ta kar bairaag.

Kabeer, if you live the householder's life, then practice righteousness; otherwise, you might as well retire from the world.

bairaagee banDhan karai taa ko bado abhaag. 243

If someone renounces the world, and then gets involved in worldly entanglements, he shall suffer terrible misfortune. 243

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

[/i]

Now putting this in its entire context what Bhagat Kabir is actually criticising in the rich and those in power. The thrill seekers, who are addicted to their senses and those addicted to the 5 thieves. Kabir was born around the area of Benares, and was brought up in a poor Muslim weavers family. He saw the excesses of the rich around him, while the poor starved. Foods like fish and wine were associated with the rich who had an excessive disposable income. Marijuana was associated with either idol people or those who had time and money to waste. Kabir abhorred this, and this statement is a social comment about the excesses of the rich. At the end he clearly states, that those people who do their duties as householders (i.e. work hard, care for other etc) are the ones who will be liberated, and those who live by excesses will suffer. One cantherefore clearly see that this is in no way a comment about eating meat (because of mistranslation) or about avoiding certain foods (as has been misrepresented).

page 50:

Jiyu kookar harkaayiyaa dhaavai dah dis jaaye. Lobhee jant na jaanayee bhukh abhakh sabh khaaye: Like the mad dog running around in all directions, the greedy person, unaware, consumes everything, edible and non-edible alike (sggs 50).

Putting this into context this appears to be talking about people who are addicted to Kaam, Krodh, Moh, Lob and Hankaar:

Here is the entire shabad:

sireeraag mehlaa 5.

Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl:

mithaa kar kai khaa-i-aa ka-urhaa upji-aa saad.

People eat what they believe to be sweet, but it turns out to be bitter in taste.

bhaa-ee meet surid kee-ay bikhi-aa rachi-aa baad.

They attach their affections to brothers and friends, uselessly engrossed in corruption.

jaaNday bilam na hova-ee vin naavai bismaad. ||1||

They vanish without a moment's delay; without God's Name, they are stunned and amazed. ||1||

mayray man satgur kee sayvaa laag.

O my mind, attach yourself to the service of the True Guru.

jo deesai so vinsanaa man kee mat ti-aag. ||1|| rahaa-o.

Whatever is seen, shall pass away. Abandon the intellectualizations of your mind. ||1||Pause||

ji-o kookar harkaa-i-aa Dhaavai dah dis jaa-ay.

Like the mad dog running around in all directions,

lobhee jant na jaan-ee bhakh abhakh sabh khaa-ay.

the greedy person, unaware, consumes everything, edible and non-edible alike.

kaam kroDh mad bi-aapi-aa fir fir jonee paa-ay. ||2||

Engrossed in the intoxication of sexual desire and anger, people wander through reincarnation over and over again. ||2||

maa-i-aa jaal pasaari-aa bheetar chog banaa-ay.

Maya has spread out her net, and in it, she has placed the bait.

tarisnaa pankhee faasi-aa nikas na paa-ay maa-ay.

The bird of desire is caught, and cannot find any escape, O my mother.

jin keetaa tiseh na jaan-ee fir fir aavai jaa-ay. ||3||

One who does not know the Lord who created him, comes and goes in reincarnation over and over again. ||3||

anik parkaaree mohi-aa baho biDh ih sansaar.

By various devices, and in so many ways, this world is enticed.

jis no rakhai so rahai samrith purakh apaar.

They alone are saved, whom the All-powerful, Infinite Lord protects.

har jan har liv uDhray naanak sad balihaar. ||4||21||91||

The servants of the Lord are saved by the Love of the Lord. O Nanak, I am forever a sacrifice to them. ||4||21||91||

The sentence “Engrossed in the intoxication of sexual desire and anger, people wander through reincarnation over and over again.” seems to confirm this. This is not about meat at all.

page 467:

Alu malu khaayee sir chhaayee paayee. Moorakh andhai pat gvaayee: One who eats filth corrupts his mind — the blind fool loses his honor (sggs 467)

This shabad again has nothing to do with meat but appears to be talking about the stae of man without Waheguru:

mehlaa 1.

First Mehl:

likh likh parhi-aa.

The more one write and reads,

taytaa karhi-aa.

the more one burns.

baho tirath bhavi-aa.

The more one wanders at sacred shrines of pilgrimage,

tayto lavi-aa.

the more one talks uselessly.

baho bhaykh kee-aa dayhee dukh dee-aa.

The more one wears religious robes, the more pain he causes his body.

saho vay jee-aa apnaa kee-aa.

O my soul, you must endure the consequences of your own actions.

ann na khaa-i-aa saad gavaa-i-aa.

One who does not eat the corn, misses out on the taste.

baho dukh paa-i-aa doojaa bhaa-i-aa.

One obtains great pain, in the love of duality.

bastar na pahirai.

One who does not wear any clothes,

ahinis kahrai.

suffers night and day.

mon vigootaa.

Through silence, he is ruined.

ki-o jaagai gur bin sootaa.

How can the sleeping one be awakened without the Guru?

pag upaytaanaa.

One who goes barefoot

apnaa kee-aa kamaanaa.

suffers by his own actions.

al mal khaa-ee sir chhaa-ee paa-ee.

One who eats filth and throws ashes on his head

moorakh anDhai pat gavaa-ee.

- the blind fool loses his honor.

)

vin naavai kichh thaa-ay na paa-ee.

Without the Name, nothing is of any use.

rahai baybaanee marhee masaanee.

One who lives in the wilderness, in cemetaries and cremation grounds

anDh na jaanai fir pachhutaanee.

- that blind man does not know the Lord; he regrets and repents in the end

The fact this is to do with the state of man without his/her Guru is confirmed by “Without the Name, nothing is of any use.”. So without Naam everything else is usless.

The practice of eating filth and throwing ashes on the head was carried out by Sadhu’s………so again nothing to do with meat.

So Randip, dont give me your lecture on eating meat is OK, because its not, Full Stop the above is authenticated literature of Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

The above is authentic but your interpretation flawed and quoting out of context is plain wrong. Again you are trying to cause a division amongst Sikhs where there is none.

I think you should have paid attention in lectures then you may have understood the basic teachings of Bani. :D

Randip, not a single thing you say is true, you get it out of books, yeh I defend myself by suing Guru Granth Sahib because that is the ultimate Guru, and not so called professor Sahib like you are, so your comments are null and false, come back to me when you have something sensible to say. No! You need to go to those gurmat classes, not me I have been through them in my younger years, you come out with stuff from books, so dont give me all that yeh, go back to your professor Sahib and ask him? I have read cover to cover and it was very tough back in the day, have you? Most which I have forgot but aint forgot that the fact that meat is banned, prohibited, fanito.

and guess what your the blind man not us.

What you said:

Quite clearly when put into context this is nothing to do with meat eating. What is being alluded to is Hindu sacrificial rituals (eg Anustarani http://www.sanskrit.org/www/Rites%20of%20P...ncestors2.html) where animals were sacrificed on the funeral pyre, ancestors or to deities. Yet the Brahmins who performed these rituals were themselves devout vegetarians. This is a comment about the futility of animal sacrifices to stone idols and dead ancestors. It is a comment on hypocrisy.

I say NONSENSE! I quote from Guru Granth Sahib all the time, you bring any site or book in front of our Guru, and Guru would teach you a lesson what Sikhi is all about.

"This shabad again has nothing to do with meat but appears to be talking about the stae of man without Waheguru", thats your opinion, quite clear has Guru Ji told you and you dont even listen to Guru Ji all you listen to is your professor.

I would quit whilst your behind, because you havent a clue.

You twisted the Gurbani yet again and said:

jo rat peeveh maansaa tin ki-o nirmal cheet.

Those who suck the blood of human beings-how can their consciousness be pure?

Your completely out of context not me and you got that from sikhnet, which incorrect, there is no word in there about Human beings, your wrong thus proviing your falseness.

I am dividing Sikh people, think again its you, most people disagree with, make another poll post people who agree meat is allowed, lets see what result is?

Simple, I quote from Guru Granth Sahib and you quote from websites and DR's. Your the weakest link goodbye!

Oh and:

ਬੰਦੇ ਚਸਮ ਦੀਦੰ ਫਨਾਇ ॥

ਦੁਨਂ​‍ੀਆ ਮੁਰਦਾਰ ਖੁਰਦਨੀ ਗਾਫਲ ਹਵਾਇ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

ਗੈਬਾਨ ਹੈਵਾਨ ਹਰਾਮ ਕੁਸਤਨੀ ਮੁਰਦਾਰ ਬਖੋਰਾਇ ॥

ਦਿਲ ਕਬਜ ਕਬਜਾ ਕਾਦਰੋ ਦੋਜਕ ਸਜਾਇ ॥੨॥

Oh and:

ਪਉੜੀ 21 ( ਨਿਗੁਰਾ ਮਨਮੁਖੁ ਵਸ ਵਿਚ ਨਹੀ ਆ ਸਕਦਾ )

ਕੁਹੈ ਕਸਾਈ ਬਕਰੀ ਲਾਇ ਲੂਣ ਸੀਖ ਮਾਸੁ ਪਰੋਆ॥ ਹਸਿ ਹਸਿ ਬੋਲੇ ਕੁਹੀਂਦੀ ਖਾਧੇ ਅਕਿ ਹਾਲੁ ਇਹੁ ਹੋਆ॥

ਮਾਸ ਖਾਨਿ ਗਲਿ ਛੁਰੀ ਦੇ ਹਾਲੁ ਤਿਨਾੜਾ ਕਉਣੁ ਅਲੋਆ॥ ਜੀਭੈ ਹੰਦਾ ਫੇੜਿਆ ਖਉ ਦੰਦਾਂ ਮੁਹੁ ਭੰਨਿ ਵਿਗੋਆ॥

ਪਰ ਤਨ ਪਰ ਧਨ ਨਿੰਦ ਕਰਿ ਹੋਇ ਦੁਜੀਭਾ ਬਿਸੀਅਰੁ ਭੋਆ॥ ਵਸਿ ਆਵੈ ਗੁਰੁਮੰਤ ਸਪੁ ਨਿਗੁਰਾ ਮਨਮੁਖੁ ਸੁਣੈ ਨ ਸੋਆ॥

ਵੇਖਿ ਨ ਚਲੈ ਅਗੈ ਟੋਆ

[randip singh]

Also Baghat Sadhana was a butcher…….was he and his profession so bad that the Guru’s condemned him? No in fact they included his hymms in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

One evening, a customer came and asked Sadhna, "Weigh for me a leg of mutton."

Sadhna said, "There is no meat left now. Please come tomorrow and take it."

The customer said, "I need the meat badly now. I have very important guests and nothing to cook for them. Please you must help me out. I am a loyal, regular and old customer of your family's business. You may charge double the price for it."

Sadhna said, "If I slaughter a goat now, it will rot by tomorrow."

The man said, "You have no need to slaughter a goat. Just cut one leg and give it to me."

Pressed by the customer, Sadhna went near the goat with a hatchet. As he approached the goat, he felt as if the goat was laughing. This shocked Sadhna.

Then the goat said: "O' Sadhna, in your worldly greed, today you are going to open a new account of pain and misery. We have been going through many thousands of births and deaths; but never before has any of us cut a limb off a live animal. You are beginning a new level of cruelty!"

At this point, the hatchet fell out of Sadhna's hand and he turned to the customer to tell him of his helplessness. But there was no one there. He did not find any customer there. A thought came to Sadhna's mind, "It was the Lord Himself Who had come to reveal Himself to his devotee in the form of a customer."

With dedication and devotion, Bhagat Sadhna obtained salvation - "…. Kabir, …. Sadhana and Sain crossed over. Says Ravi Daas, listen, O Saints, through the Dear Lord, all is accomplished." (Sggs Page 1106).

The lord himself condemed him and he got salvation and after that his words got incorporated because he learnt the lesson and he wished to share it with others and this has got nothing to do with eating meat.

What on God’s dear earth are you saying?

Are you trying to impose a caste system on Sikhism again?

There is another story before this about the weight stone….maybe you should read that too, where Sadhana’s profession as a butcher is praised because he does it with a honest heart.

Other so called lowley jobs are that of a leather worker, musician etc too…!!

and thats bull there is no line in gurbani on page 141 as you suggest:

"Nanak, another's right is swine for him (the Musalman) and cow for him (the Hindu)."

(Guru Nanak, pg. 141)

Your wrong, read the page properly:

O Nanak, God shall preserve your honor. || 1 || FIRST MEHL: To take what rightfully belongs to another, is like a Muslim eating pork, or a Hindu eating beef. Our Guru, our Spiritual Guide, stands by us, if we do not eat those carcasses. By mere talk, people do not earn passage to Heaven. Salvation comes only from the practice of Truth. By adding spices to forbidden foods, they are not made acceptable. O Nanak, from false talk, only falsehood is obtained. || 2 || FIRST MEHL: There are five prayers and five times of day for prayer; the five have five names. Let the first be truthfulness, the second honest living, and the third charity in the Name of God. Let the fourth be good will to all, and the fifth the praise of the Lord. Repeat the prayer of good deeds, and then, you may call yourself a Muslim. O Nanak, the false obtain falsehood, and only falsehood. || 3 || PAUREE: Some trade in priceless jewels, while others deal in mere glass. When the True Guru is pleased, we find the treasure of the jewel, deep within the self. Without the Guru, no one has found this treasure. The blind and the false have died in their endless wanderings. The self-willed manmukhs putrefy and die in duality. They do not understand contemplative meditation. Without the One Lord, there is no other at all. Unto whom should they complain? Some are destitute, and wander around endlessly, while others have storehouses of wealth. Without God's Name, there is no other wealth. Everything else is just poison and ashes. O Nanak, the Lord Himself acts, and causes others to act; by the Hukam of His Command, we are embellished and exalted. || 7 || SHALOK, FIRST MEHL: It is difficult to be called a Muslim; if one is truly a Muslim, then he may be called one. First, let him savor the religion of the Prophet as sweet; then, let his pride of his possessions be scraped away. Becoming a true Muslim, a disciple of the faith of Mohammed, let him put aside the delusion of death and life. As he submits to God's Will, and surrenders to the Creator, he is rid of selfishness and conceit. And when, O Nanak, he is merciful to all beings, only then shall he be called a Muslim. || 1 || FOURTH MEHL: Renounce sexual desire, anger, falsehood and slander; forsake Maya and eliminate egotistical pride. Renounce sexual desire and promiscuity, and give up emotional attachment. Only then shall you obtain the Immaculate Lord amidst the darkness of the world. Renounce selfishness, conceit and arrogant pride, and your love for your children and spouse. Abandon your thirsty hopes and desires, and embrace love for the Lord. O Nanak, the True One shall come to dwell in your mind. Through the True Word of the Shabad, you shall be absorbed in the Name of the Lord. || 2 || PAUREE: Neither the kings, nor their subjects, nor the leaders shall remain. The shops, the cities and the streets shall eventually disintegrate, by the Hukam of the Lord's Command. Those solid and beautiful mansions - the fools think that they belong to them. The treasure-houses, filled with wealth, shall be emptied out in an instant. The horses, chariots, camels and elephants, with all their decorations; the gardens, lands, houses, tents, soft beds and satin pavilions - Oh, where are those things, which they believe to be their own? O Nanak, the True One is the Giver of all; He is revealed through His All-powerful Creative Nature. || 8 || SHALOK, FIRST MEHL: If the rivers became cows, giving milk, and the spring water became milk and ghee;

Again this shabad confirms this is nothing to do with meat but taking away someone’s rights. So it is not bull. Maybe you may worship the cow and the bull and shouldn’t take the name in vain .

From this notion, Randip, your revealing falsehood and you dont even know what your talking about to be honest. So take your meat eating topics where they really belong to, in the BIN!

They don’t belong into the bin, but your ignorant thinking does. From another post you said you were older than me, but from what I am reading you cannot be older than 20.

Prove that the hukamnamas are true, what next you going to say I read so and so by Dr this and that, read the granth and find out.

I you have been studying Sikh History for at least 20 years, you will come to realise that there are a lot of false documents out there attributed to the Guru’s. They have been planted by Brahmin’s and Hindu Vaishnav’s.