Fools Who Continue To Wrangle

[kds1980]

not to offend anybody but if the high level sants of sikhism know everything then why do they have differences.why they have different rehat maryada,s.i once read on this site that sants of taksals have vision

of guru gobind singh ji and guru ji told them that raagmaala is gurbani.but if you ask AKJs they have different stories about the vision of guru 's telling them that raagmaala is not gurbani.so who is right and who is wrong

that being said... we can say that all sants/gurmukhs/mahapurakhs agree that eating meat is against Sikhi.. i haven't heard of any great souls from any jattha havin consumption of meat... u can look at any gurmukh bandaa from akj/ddt/sadh sangat/gnnsj/nanaksar etc... none of them ate meat either...

so although some parts of maryada are different, they still all agreed on one thing --> that being no meat :lol:

my point is that if sants in sikhism know's everything then why do they have differences with each other.

it means that we cannot accept their opinion as final verdict.

[randip singh]

how am I pulling points out of the air and 'claiming' them to be true?...

whether u believe in Sants/Mahapurakhs/Brahmgyanee's or not... any person can see that so many uchee avasthaa Gurmukhs were against meat.. in fact, I don't know any Gurmukh that was pro-meat..

lets see... bhai sahib bhai randhir singh jee, gyanee amolak singh jee, bhai sahib bhai jeevan singh jee, bhai rama singh jee, sant gyanee jarnail singh jee, sant gyanee kartar singh, sant baba thakur singh jee, sant baba isher singh jee, sant baba nand singh jee, sant gyanee kartar singh jee, bhai jaswant singh jee (bauji), gyanee thakur singh jee, baba gurbachan singh jee, baba ranjit singh and so on and so on... (just to name a few)...

as i mention in an earlier post... what u think don't matter.. in the end its the call of the panj pyaray.. now if ur panj pyaray said i's okay for u to eat meat, then so-be-it... i'm nobody to question that.. but if they said NO, and u still eat meat based on ur 'research' and ur feelin, then sux to be u 'cause u broke ur amrit.. (and i'm saying 'you' generally speaking, not specifically toward randip singh)...

bottom line.. i's panj pyaray's hukam.. u follow it no matter what... end of story!!

chardi kalaa!!

Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Jee Kee Fateh!!

Well I could say what you think doesn't matter either....but actually it does.....when it is addressing salient points.............not when pulling points out of the air..............

and you are pulling points out of the air.......... because you are claiming that because these particular people didn't eat meat then it applies to entire Sikhism.................our Guru is the Guru Granth Sahib ji at the end of the day.......not the people who follow a particular Sant orientated Maryada....and the Guru Granth Sahib ji which is higher than the Sants you believe in says this issue doesn't matter...........

If you took the time to read the article it is not actually about meat eating or vegetarianism.....but actually about the Hankaar of some people who wish to impose their own beliefs onto Sikhism......even to the extent where they mistranslate.................. classic one Murdaar.........even a person with basic Gurmukhi skills knowws the meaning of this.....yet some websites have deliberately mistranslated........

Also leaving lines off Dabistan-e-Mazhib....that is just doctoring of quotes.........and plain lieing......

the list goes on................

I say again....tackle the points you have issue with for inaccuracy in the essay............otherwise you are just pulling points out of the air.

[Paneer Monster]

Vahegurujikakhalsavahegurujikifateh

i believe meat consumption is just wrong. it doesnt mater which way you look at it. i can also pull quotes from Guru Granth Sahib Ji and give interpretations to justify my opinion. Learn and read Guru's Bani, understand the deep philosophy of Guru Granth Sahib Ji and then live every action of your life in accordance to Guru Ji's Bani. Only then can you even try to justify eating meat. If eating meat was a last resort to live longer to do naam jap etc then by all means eat it. but i do believe chomping meat casuary in every day life is wrong.

Baba Mian Singh Ji, a student of Baba Ishar Singh Ji, was a high level Sant. He said no person should ever justify eating meat using Guru Ji's Bani. On one occasion, a Bibi Ji (who had come from her home after preparing a chicken dish) was going to prepare Guru Ka Langar in Gurdwara Sahib, Baba ji stoped her, and asked her where she was going. She said she was going to prepare Langar. Baba Ji explained how wrong it was to use her hands to prepare langar immediately after preparing a meat dish. the Bibi was flabbergasted at how Baba Ji knew. To date since that day, Bibi Ji has never prepared or consumed any meat.

The above article says “one can only conclude that some of the Guru’s were indeed vegetarian and some meat eaters” that’s wrong, maby that’s the only conclusion that individual can come to, however I find it bizarre why Guru Sahib would (and I hate to type this… even theoretically speaking) eat meat in only some forms and not others. Our Guru Ji’s carries the same joyt in all 11 forms. The Chardi Kala Gurmuks such as Baba Mian Singh Ji spreads the light and teachings of Guru Ji further.

Vahegurujikakhalsavahegurujikifateh

With all due respect I am not concerned with Sants and Baba's!! I am not even interested in your opinion....but hard facts.

I would like to see evidence from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji (our Guru) to back up your claim.........till then I will treat what you are saying as another smokescreen.

Thanks. :lol:

Vahegurujikakhalsavahegurujikifateh

Wow! your one post says alot about you!

Im surprised a person with an attitude like yours even reads Guru Ji's sweet Bani!.. By the sounds of things, it doesn’t seem to inspire you. I think your one of those people Guru Sahib Ji warns us of who uses Guru Ji's Bani to suit there own needs. You talk about Guru Granth Sahib Ji so much but you must understand you cant selectively pick and choose which Bani you pay heed to. Maybe because there’s so much meat in front of your face, you cant see further then your own fork.

Another thing you need to realise is, this is a discussion forum - keyword DISCUSSION. People will have different opinions to yours... now thats hard facts! And obviously my opinion does interest you to the max, as otherwise you wouldn’t have quoted me with your sausage fingers. If you are not interested in the opinion of others, then you hold no bearings on this forum.

Your not concerned with Sants? Well I am. Guru Granth Sahib Ji emphasis on the connection we should have with Sants; touching our foreheads at the feet of Sants, serving sants with humility, serving the sevadars of sants, keeping the company of sants, singing praises with sants, learning our way of life from saints and studying the lifes of sants etc etc…. Guru Granth Sahib Ji speaks a lot more about Sants then it does on meat, so perhaps maby you should be concerned with the lives of great chardi kala sants (all CK sants lived and live a vegetarian lifestyle). Guru Nanak Sahib Ji studied the life of a saint before His own holy time: Bhagat Kabeer Ji (needles to say he was vegetarian). All true Saints come with the same message.

I do not feel worthy enough to post any Gutru’s Bani for you to adjust to justify your own actions. It seems you have already made up your mind, and Guru Maharaj says there is no point in arguing with a fool. Also Guru Granth Sahib Ji says a lot about the slandering of a Saint.

If u eat meat then u eat meat fair enough, were all human and were all equal but please do not say its acceptable in Sikhi unless you can back it up with LIGITIMATE proof which one cannot do unless one is CHARDI KALA which im certain Randip Singh is not.. People talk of jtka meat but please show me where in Guru Granth Sahib Ji it even mentions the word Jutka, let alone justification for eating it.

.

Your posts and attitude to me says “forget Panj Pyarea hukam and answer to me”. Dasmesh Pita Ji Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharj said he resides where 5 Singhs assemble (Panj Pyarea)…. It is them we must obey, serve and answer to.

Im not holding my breath for a reply from you (randip) as you claim you are not interested in my opinion, yet you still tend to quote me!

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Vahegurujikakhalsavahegurujikifateh

[mann_kaum_layee_qurbaan]

I would just like to say that in my lifetime, I have met chardi kala vegetarian amritdhari sikhs and meat-eating amritdhari sikhs.

eatng meat or not eating meat is a maryada, or discipline. You go to a country like , say Japan, your maryada would be to eat rice 99% of the time.

Just like sants/deras etc choose their maryadas accordingly, i guess so do average people. These days there is one maryada for every sikh on earth, so about 20 million maryadas floating about. Add to that 2 sants for every maryada and you get 40 million sants.

enjoy dinner (whatever your having) :lol: If you read and try to live Gurbaani, your my friend, i don't care if you follow sant X's maryada or sant Y's maryada.

peace.

[Paneer Monster]

vahegurujikakhalsavahegurujikifateh

True Gurmukh Sants know better then we do. were (or atleast I) am a blind fool, know whats paap and still do it, on one side of the coin go Gurdwara Sahib on the other im drowning in the things Guru Sahib Ji warned us of. We are not at the speritaual level or above the speritual level of Gurmukh Sants (vast majority of us are way below). Gurmuk Chardi Kala Sants have a vision we do not have, there can see from the dasam duar.... we can not, they have a clearer accurate understanding of Gurbani then we (or I) do. Sants tell us to avoid meat, and we say "no, we can, Sikhi allows it"...?!... dnt make sence to me. I am not even worthy of the dust on the floors of Gurdwara Sahib to be speaking and explaining the definitions of Gurbani. My message to sangat is Learn, Read and Study Gurbani for your selves. If you wanto become Gursikh, then live your life without any doubts in accordance to Guru Ji's teachings. In this way every choice you make will be the right one. if you are ever unsure, take Hukamnama from guru Granth Sahib Ji... In its deep meaning will you find your answer.

this is probably just another 'smokescreen post' but its my opinion anyways...

bhul chuk maaf

vahegurujikakhalsavahegurujikifateh

[randip singh]

Wow! your one post says alot about you!

Oh really….lets continue.

Im surprised a person with an attitude like yours even reads Guru Ji's sweet Bani!.. By the sounds of things, it doesn’t seem to inspire you. I think your one of those people Guru Sahib Ji warns us of who uses Guru Ji's Bani to suit there own needs. You talk about Guru Granth Sahib Ji so much but you must understand you cant selectively pick and choose which Bani you pay heed to. Maybe because there’s so much meat in front of your face, you cant see further then your own fork.

Attitude like who did you say?…I see you have debased this debate to mere insults and eating references. Not even an attempt at debate.

I could have made you look incredibly silly before on the fact that you did not even understand the comment on Dabistan. The comment was actually dismissing Dabistan as biased and creating a division between the message of the Guru’s by making meat an issue….precisely like YOU are……..however that went way over you head…….lets continue…..

Another thing you need to realise is, this is a discussion forum - keyword DISCUSSION. People will have different opinions to yours... now thats hard facts! And obviously my opinion does interest you to the max, as otherwise you wouldn’t have quoted me with your sausage fingers. If you are not interested in the opinion of others, then you hold no bearings on this forum.

Sausage fingers……hilarious………are you really a grown up?

You were not discussing at all but forcing YOUR opinion onto others. You did not even understand what the final paragraph in the document was saying yet you felt you could comment on it and twist it to say something it has not. Now someone without prejudice like say LK (who os a strict vegetarian), can see that…..but Hankaar cloud your eyes so much that you see meat eaters as “talking to their fork” or “or sausage fingers”……………………….incredibly childish!!

Your not concerned with Sants? Well I am. Guru Granth Sahib Ji emphasis on the connection we should have with Sants; touching our foreheads at the feet of Sants, serving sants with humility, serving the sevadars of sants, keeping the company of sants, singing praises with sants, learning our way of life from saints and studying the lifes of sants etc etc…. Guru Granth Sahib Ji speaks a lot more about Sants then it does on meat, so perhaps maby you should be concerned with the lives of great chardi kala sants (all CK sants lived and live a vegetarian lifestyle). Guru Nanak Sahib Ji studied the life of a saint before His own holy time: Bhagat Kabeer Ji (needles to say he was vegetarian). All true Saints come with the same message.

Actually Bhagta Kabeer was a Muslim weaver (there are spurious claims by Brahmins that he was a Hindu…totally untrue)…..in all probability he ate Halal (because he was a Muslim) meat….but no one knows his diet in any case.

My Sant, My Guru my everything is the Guru Granth Sahib ji……………..I keep the company of Gurmukhs….and because I don’t believe in the Sants YOU believe in, you have NO right to question my faith in Sikhism.

I could name the direct descendents of the Guru’s (Bedi’s and Sodhi’s) who do not live a vegetarian lifestyle…..yet there are Udasis etc who do (and these people are outcastes from Sikhs)…………..

I do not feel worthy enough to post any Gutru’s Bani for you to adjust to justify your own actions. It seems you have already made up your mind, and Guru Maharaj says there is no point in arguing with a fool. Also Guru Granth Sahib Ji says a lot about the slandering of a Saint.

I maybe a Fool………….who cares if I am…………….. If you don’t feel worthy enough to post Bani then you obviously do not consult and learn from your Guru enough………………my suggestion is to increase your relationship with your Guru and don’t worry about running around after Sants and other fellows.

If u eat meat then u eat meat fair enough, were all human and were all equal but please do not say its acceptable in Sikhi unless you can back it up with LIGITIMATE proof which one cannot do unless one is CHARDI KALA which im certain Randip Singh is not.. People talk of jtka meat but please show me where in Guru Granth Sahib Ji it even mentions the word Jutka, let alone justification for eating it.

Exactly……..the Guru Granth Sahib ji does not prescribe meat eating…..it also does not prescribe vegetarianism…………………

This statement alone clearly shows you did not even bother to read the essay…

.

Your posts and attitude to me says “forget Panj Pyarea hukam and answer to me”. Dasmesh Pita Ji Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharj said he resides where 5 Singhs assemble (Panj Pyarea)…. It is them we must obey, serve and answer to.

Im not holding my breath for a reply from you (randip) as you claim you are not interested in my opinion, yet you still tend to quote me!

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Vahegurujikakhalsavahegurujikifateh

My attitude to you is based on the fact you twisted the meaning of the final comment…………….it shows you did not bother to read the entire document……..for if you did you would realise that diet…..meat or vegetarian has nothing to do with Sikhism.

Constructive comments ARE welcome….but half baked statements without reading the material are not.

Regards. :lol:

[Paneer Monster]

Vahegurujikakhalsavahegurujikifateh

HUMMMM

and who was it who said: “I am not even interested in your opinion....but hard facts”. Lol if this was true then surely wouldn’t have quoted me 8 times and counting. im not into internet beef, i aint no internet gangster, you made a post, i gave my opinion, you responded by saying u don’t care etc etc…. fair enough…i made a joke, no need to sulk about it.

I still stand by my comments.

You make comments such as “With all due respect I am not concerned with Sants and Baba's!! I am not even interested in your opinion....but hard facts “ and “I will treat what you are saying as another smokescreen”.

And then, after saying this you expect me to keep up /start a debate with you ./ running pulling out quotes from Guru Granth Sahib Ji… nah its not going to happen. Like I said before, read my previous post. I have nothing more to say on the meat matter…. here, ill save you the trouble of scrolling up…

My message to sangat is Learn, Read and Study Gurbani for your selves. If you wanto become Gursikh, then live your life without any doubts in accordance to Guru Ji's teachings. In this way every choice you make will be the right one. if you are ever unsure, take Hukamnama from guru Granth Sahib Ji... In its deep meaning will you find your answer.

We can find ways around anything to make things easier for ourselves, we can take shortcuts on any route we take, but the Gurmukh does not find alternative routes or take shortcuts, the Gurmukh does this in accordance to His will, the Gurmukh is disciplined and the Gurmukh does not take the easy way out.

What you need to realise is, Yes, Guru Granth Sahib Ji is most supreme in the Sikh faith, and yes, our lives should revolve around Gurbani, but that does not mean she should black out and ignore the rest of the world around us. We get education from teachers in schools, we make transactions with the help of clerks in a bank, we can get speritial teaching from learned sants in accordance to Guru Granth Sahib Ji. If you don’t wanto accept this, fine don’t, but that’s my belief.

I tend to refrain from quoting Guru Ji's Bani because I am not Gurmukh. I would not wanto give the wrong interpretation of Gurbani as it is a huge sin and very disrespectful to Guru Sahib however other people quote Gurbani, give their own interpretations and pass it off as the correct interpretation. When Gurbani is translated it looses a lot of its meaning and philosophy that’s why I urge sangat to learn gurbani themselves. I would never give my interpretation of Gubani. The seeker should search Guru Granth Sahib Ji themselves, I find it pointless and unnecessary to quote Gurbani in threads such as this one. I do not know my Guru Ji well enough to explain the holy Bani of Guruji.. As Sikhs we should obay hukam of Panj Pyarea when embracing amrit.

About Bhagat Kabeer Ji,

Most of the information i know about Bhagat Kabeer Ji i have from this book:

I duno where it was published, it is mainly writen in arabic (which i cannot read), but also has english literature (translated) believed to have been writen by Bhagat Kabeer Ji.. In this book there is a translation of bhagat Kabeer Ji that reads as follows:

A man who eats meat is a devil in human form.

Avoid his company, it sabotages the devotion to the lord.

Those who eat flesh, eyes open to the killing of animals will not be saved from the sorrows of hell.

The only reference have for this is the book, all other references are given in Arabic. If anyone else has this book its on p322.

Also on p332:

O friend I see you fasting during the day,

Then slaughtering cows at night to break your fast,

At one end is devotion at the other is murder,

How can the lord be pleased?

I say to you, once again I say

I entreat you, take this fact to heart.

The being you kill so lightly today

Will someday slaughter you.

Mr friend, do pray and cut the throat of anger,

And slaughter the ravages of blind fury

Those who slaughter the 5 passions

Lust anger greed attachment and pride

Will surely see the Lord face to face.

many times I have read that Bhagat Kabeer Ji was vegetarian. This book si the only reference I have at hand.

however how authentic there translations are I do not know, in any case I hold them higher then your theory of “he was muslim so he ate halal” that’s just ignorance.

You say "in all probability he ate halal meat". "no one knows is diet in any case", based on my my research, partly from this book, but from various other sources i believe it is most likely that bhagat Kabeer ji lived a vegetarian lifestyle.

This is very unlikely Bhagat Ji ate halal meat as he only speaks of meat in negative terms. Also, Bhagat Kabeer Ji was against outward forms of worship ie haaj, halal, pilgrimages etc so you can not say he probably ate meat. Just like Baba Bulleh Shah was a Muslim, however he never adopted the muslim ortherdox belief. A story tells of how Buleh Shah was asked my mullah’s to explain his religion, he replied he belongs to the religion of luv, his companion was asked the same question and was beaten by the mullah’s because his replied he was muslim (but he did not follow the ortherdox muslim belief). Another point I find interesting is, there lives a very smallsect of muslims that believe Mohammed Sahib only ate meat 4 times in his whole life!.... does any other persons know about this sect of mulsims? Aperantly there beliefs are very similar to Sikhs.obviously this is not the belief of ortherdoz muslims. Singh Your probably wondering what the relevance of this is, just because someone is muslim, does not mean it is fair to say they “probably eat halal meat” – especially if they denounce religious rituals, madnir, mosk, Friday payers, haaj halal, etc etc he rightly explained that one does not attain god realisation in this way. Bhagat Ji was against circumcision “if circumcision makes a man a muslim? When what will be made of your women?”.

As for his faith, it is not known who the birth parents of Bhagat kabeer Ji were. They could very well have been Hindu, many stories are told about the birth of Bhagat Kabeer. Some believe he was found as a baby by a river and by low caste muslims who accepted him as there own. It is believed by some that Bhagat Kabeer Ji was taken into a mosk to be named. The name Kabeer (sacred name for god in the Islamic faith) was chosen 3 times my the mullah in the mosk. The mullah ordered the death of bhagat kabeer ji, as his parents were of low castes. At this point the parents of kabeer ji asked the mullah one more time, they insisted if the name kabeer appears again, it is gods will which must be obayed, the mullah named the baby for the 4th time, and the name kabeer was chosen.

Bhul chuk maaf

vahegurujikakhalsavahegurujikifateh

[randip singh]

Vahegurujikakhalsavahegurujikifateh

HUMMMM

and who was it who said: “I am not even interested in your opinion....but hard facts”. Lol if this was true then surely wouldn’t have quoted me 8 times and counting. im not into internet beef, i aint no internet gangster, you made a post, i gave my opinion, you responded by saying u don’t care etc etc…. fair enough…i made a joke, no need to sulk about it.

I still stand by my comments.

You make comments such as “With all due respect I am not concerned with Sants and Baba's!! I am not even interested in your opinion....but hard facts “ and “I will treat what you are saying as another smokescreen”.

And then, after saying this you expect me to keep up /start a debate with you ./ running pulling out quotes from Guru Granth Sahib Ji… nah its not going to happen. Like I said before, read my previous post. I have nothing more to say on the meat matter…. here, ill save you the trouble of scrolling up…

My message to sangat is Learn, Read and Study Gurbani for your selves. If you wanto become Gursikh, then live your life without any doubts in accordance to Guru Ji's teachings. In this way every choice you make will be the right one. if you are ever unsure, take Hukamnama from guru Granth Sahib Ji... In its deep meaning will you find your answer.

Well you don't want debate ...thats fine.

Like I said...before making comments on an article try reading it FIRST!!!

As for Bhaghat Kabir there are many accounts of him....even in my essay their is an account of him being a Vashnavite..............but Bhaghat Kabir is not the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.......

In anycase the debate is irrelevant because you won't read the post before commenting on it..............

[Paneer Monster]

Thats right,

everyone’s posts are irrelevant, inaccurate or just "pull points out of the air" except for your own!

its ok for you to make false claims such as "in all probability he (Bhagat kabeer Ji) ate Halal (because he was a Muslim)" (amongst others) and when your proven you wrong you switch the lines of the argument and say

"but Bhaghat Kabir is not the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.......In anycase the debate is irrelevant because you won't read the post before commenting on it...."

who even said bhagat kabeerji is the Guru Granth Sahib ji?? you always use these words as your get out of jail free card “that’s irrelevant, that’s inaccurate, that’s not important, that’s pulling points out of the air”.

Another thing is for you its ok to post the views of

Surindar Singh Kohli, Singh Bros.

A History of the Sikh People by Dr. Gopal Singh, World Sikh University Press, Delhi

Philosophy of Sikhism by Gyani Sher Singh (Ph.D), Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee. Amritsar

A Popular Dictionary of Sikhism, W.Owen Cole and Piara Singh Sambhi, England

Dr. H.S. Singha and Satwant Kaur, Hemkunt Press, Delhi

And many many many more,

(which no person has objected to) But if any person mentions the opinion of chardi kala well respected Gursikh saants and sevadar’s of the panth, your only reply is

“I am not concerned with Sants and Baba's!! I am not even interested in your opinion....but hard facts”.

well maby your not interested?! But other people are which is why they have voiced their opinions.

common sort your own comments out before you go point out at everyone elses.

[Lionchild]

looks like we are still wrangling about this subject...

Please, let's justleave this topic for now before someone gets hurt.