Fools Who Continue To Wrangle

[Hardeep__singh]

Also Baghat Sadhana was a butcher…….was he and his profession so bad that the Guru’s condemned him? No in fact they included his hymms in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

One evening, a customer came and asked Sadhna, "Weigh for me a leg of mutton."

Sadhna said, "There is no meat left now. Please come tomorrow and take it."

The customer said, "I need the meat badly now. I have very important guests and nothing to cook for them. Please you must help me out. I am a loyal, regular and old customer of your family's business. You may charge double the price for it."

Sadhna said, "If I slaughter a goat now, it will rot by tomorrow."

The man said, "You have no need to slaughter a goat. Just cut one leg and give it to me."

Pressed by the customer, Sadhna went near the goat with a hatchet. As he approached the goat, he felt as if the goat was laughing. This shocked Sadhna.

Then the goat said: "O' Sadhna, in your worldly greed, today you are going to open a new account of pain and misery. We have been going through many thousands of births and deaths; but never before has any of us cut a limb off a live animal. You are beginning a new level of cruelty!"

At this point, the hatchet fell out of Sadhna's hand and he turned to the customer to tell him of his helplessness. But there was no one there. He did not find any customer there. A thought came to Sadhna's mind, "It was the Lord Himself Who had come to reveal Himself to his devotee in the form of a customer."

With dedication and devotion, Bhagat Sadhna obtained salvation - "…. Kabir, …. Sadhana and Sain crossed over. Says Ravi Daas, listen, O Saints, through the Dear Lord, all is accomplished." (Sggs Page 1106).

The lord himself condemed him and he got salvation and after that his words got incorporated because he learnt the lesson and he wished to share it with others and this has got nothing to do with eating meat.

What on God’s dear earth are you saying?

Are you trying to impose a caste system on Sikhism again?

There is another story before this about the weight stone….maybe you should read that too, where Sadhana’s profession as a butcher is praised because he does it with a honest heart.

Other so called lowley jobs are that of a leather worker, musician etc too…!!

and thats bull there is no line in gurbani on page 141 as you suggest:

"Nanak, another's right is swine for him (the Musalman) and cow for him (the Hindu)."

(Guru Nanak, pg. 141)

Your wrong, read the page properly:

O Nanak, God shall preserve your honor. || 1 || FIRST MEHL: To take what rightfully belongs to another, is like a Muslim eating pork, or a Hindu eating beef. Our Guru, our Spiritual Guide, stands by us, if we do not eat those carcasses. By mere talk, people do not earn passage to Heaven. Salvation comes only from the practice of Truth. By adding spices to forbidden foods, they are not made acceptable. O Nanak, from false talk, only falsehood is obtained. || 2 || FIRST MEHL: There are five prayers and five times of day for prayer; the five have five names. Let the first be truthfulness, the second honest living, and the third charity in the Name of God. Let the fourth be good will to all, and the fifth the praise of the Lord. Repeat the prayer of good deeds, and then, you may call yourself a Muslim. O Nanak, the false obtain falsehood, and only falsehood. || 3 || PAUREE: Some trade in priceless jewels, while others deal in mere glass. When the True Guru is pleased, we find the treasure of the jewel, deep within the self. Without the Guru, no one has found this treasure. The blind and the false have died in their endless wanderings. The self-willed manmukhs putrefy and die in duality. They do not understand contemplative meditation. Without the One Lord, there is no other at all. Unto whom should they complain? Some are destitute, and wander around endlessly, while others have storehouses of wealth. Without God's Name, there is no other wealth. Everything else is just poison and ashes. O Nanak, the Lord Himself acts, and causes others to act; by the Hukam of His Command, we are embellished and exalted. || 7 || SHALOK, FIRST MEHL: It is difficult to be called a Muslim; if one is truly a Muslim, then he may be called one. First, let him savor the religion of the Prophet as sweet; then, let his pride of his possessions be scraped away. Becoming a true Muslim, a disciple of the faith of Mohammed, let him put aside the delusion of death and life. As he submits to God's Will, and surrenders to the Creator, he is rid of selfishness and conceit. And when, O Nanak, he is merciful to all beings, only then shall he be called a Muslim. || 1 || FOURTH MEHL: Renounce sexual desire, anger, falsehood and slander; forsake Maya and eliminate egotistical pride. Renounce sexual desire and promiscuity, and give up emotional attachment. Only then shall you obtain the Immaculate Lord amidst the darkness of the world. Renounce selfishness, conceit and arrogant pride, and your love for your children and spouse. Abandon your thirsty hopes and desires, and embrace love for the Lord. O Nanak, the True One shall come to dwell in your mind. Through the True Word of the Shabad, you shall be absorbed in the Name of the Lord. || 2 || PAUREE: Neither the kings, nor their subjects, nor the leaders shall remain. The shops, the cities and the streets shall eventually disintegrate, by the Hukam of the Lord's Command. Those solid and beautiful mansions - the fools think that they belong to them. The treasure-houses, filled with wealth, shall be emptied out in an instant. The horses, chariots, camels and elephants, with all their decorations; the gardens, lands, houses, tents, soft beds and satin pavilions - Oh, where are those things, which they believe to be their own? O Nanak, the True One is the Giver of all; He is revealed through His All-powerful Creative Nature. || 8 || SHALOK, FIRST MEHL: If the rivers became cows, giving milk, and the spring water became milk and ghee;

Again this shabad confirms this is nothing to do with meat but taking away someone’s rights. So it is not bull. Maybe you may worship the cow and the bull and shouldn’t take the name in vain .

From this notion, Randip, your revealing falsehood and you dont even know what your talking about to be honest. So take your meat eating topics where they really belong to, in the BIN!

They don’t belong into the bin, but your ignorant thinking does. From another post you said you were older than me, but from what I am reading you cannot be older than 20.

Prove that the hukamnamas are true, what next you going to say I read so and so by Dr this and that, read the granth and find out.

I you have been studying Sikh History for at least 20 years, you will come to realise that there are a lot of false documents out there attributed to the Guru’s. They have been planted by Brahmin’s and Hindu Vaishnav’s.

Previously you said and misinterpretated:

Awpy mwCI mCulI Awpy pwxI jwlu ] (23-12, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

aapay maachhee machhulee aapay paanee jaal.

He Himself is the fisherman and the fish; He Himself is the water and the net.

Awpy jwl mxkVw Awpy AMdir lwlu ]2] (23-12, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

aapay jaal mankarhaa aapay andar laal. ||2||

He Himself is the sinker, and He Himself is the bait. ||2||

Awpy bhu ibiD rMgulw sKIey myrw lwlu ] (23-13, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

aapay baho biDh rangulaa sakhee-ay mayraa laal.

He Himself loves in so many ways. O sister soul-brides, He is my Beloved.

inq rvY sohwgxI dyKu hmwrw hwlu ]3] (23-13, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

nit ravai sohaaganee daykh hamaaraa haal. ||3||

He continually ravishes and enjoys the happy soul-brides; just look at the plight I am in without Him! ||3||

Before the above is mentioned, it mentions:

rMig rqw myrw swihbu riv rihAw BrpUir ]1] rhwau ] (23-11, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

rang rataa mayraa saahib rav rahi-aa bharpoor. ||1|| rahaa-o.

My Lord and Master is imbued with love; He is totally permeating and pervading all. ||1||Pause||

Premeating mean saturated and Pervading mean infused in all no matter if we are murderers, robbers or meat eaters or vegetarians, so it just goes to show you have picked and twisted the bani, not me.

Are you so like a stone that you cant understand what Gurbani means, Herelet me clarify it for you:

God is everywhere in the person who hunts for meat, hes in the water, he is in the fish he is in me and you. All you can think is the Gurbani is a food menu lol! u make me laugh! u just proved your own words.

My thinking is not on Brahmins and Hindu Vaishnavs, my quotes are direct from the Granth, so stop bringing the stupid influence from Hindus and Brahmins.

"Again this shabad confirms this is nothing to do with meat but taking away someone’s rights. So it is not bull".

Again bull, sorry but there is no justification in your answer. oh and IS IT? READ IT PROPERLY, if you can read that is lol! Read and research and find out from the granth, if you cant dont chat silly on the forum, simple as.

You have researched sikh history for 20 years, wow, intelligence shows and all you cud think of is a menu, listen, I am a lot older than 20 if you want to meet me come to LEEDS, UK, I will meet you and you can find out how old i am.

You couldnt not even translate the Gurmukhi I quoted, can you even read? LOL! so how to you expect me to argue against your comments, when you dont even know anything about Gurbani, perhaps you need to ask your parents.

[randip singh]

Randip, not a single thing you say is true, you get it out of books, yeh I defend myself by suing Guru Granth Sahib because that is the ultimate Guru, and not so called professor Sahib like you are, so your comments are null and false, come back to me when you have something sensible to say. No! You need to go to those gurmat classes, not me I have been through them in my younger years, you come out with stuff from books, so dont give me all that yeh, go back to your professor Sahib and ask him? I have read cover to cover and it was very tough back in the day, have you? Most which I have forgot but aint forgot that the fact that meat is banned, prohibited, fanito.

and guess what your the blind man not us.

I am not pursuing a Hindu Vaishnav agenda, by telling people to protect cows. You are.

I have quoted Bani, and the whole shabad rather than one line. You have quoted one line ot of context.

Who is us….if you mean Sant/Jatha….the yes I am not part of that……I have a bigger brotherhood and it is the brotherhood of Sikhs.

What you said:

Quite clearly when put into context this is nothing to do with meat eating. What is being alluded to is Hindu sacrificial rituals (eg Anustarani http://www.sanskrit.org/www/Rites%20of%20P...ncestors2.html) where animals were sacrificed on the funeral pyre, ancestors or to deities. Yet the Brahmins who performed these rituals were themselves devout vegetarians. This is a comment about the futility of animal sacrifices to stone idols and dead ancestors. It is a comment on hypocrisy.

I say NONSENSE! I quote from Guru Granth Sahib all the time, you bring any site or book in front of our Guru, and Guru would teach you a lesson what Sikhi is all about.

"This shabad again has nothing to do with meat but appears to be talking about the stae of man without Waheguru", thats your opinion, quite clear has Guru Ji told you and you dont even listen to Guru Ji all you listen to is your professor.

I would quit whilst your behind, because you havent a clue.

I am neither behind nor ahead….for you this is your goal….to be on top and surpress people….that is not mine.

If you do not understand something in Hindu ritualism, then admit it….don’t be ignorant and make personal attacks.

Also I clearly do listen to what Guruji tells me….what I don’t listen to is Sant/Jatha followers who spin Sikhism for their own benefits.

You twisted the Gurbani yet again and said:

jo rat peeveh maansaa tin ki-o nirmal cheet.

Those who suck the blood of human beings-how can their consciousness be pure?

Your completely out of context not me and you got that from sikhnet, which incorrect, there is no word in there about Human beings, your wrong thus proviing your falseness.

Actually you do not understand Bani…what is “ansaa tin ki-o nirmal cheet”? If you don’t understand….no point talking to you.

www.srigranth.org has two translations like this, so I cannot be wrong. Do not slander me just to make your point friend.

I am dividing Sikh people, think again its you, most people disagree with, make another poll post people who agree meat is allowed, lets see what result is?

Why post a poll……..I am talking to you….it is you making a big deal about this not me.

I am saying diet is an individual choice….you are trying to impose your dier, your will on everyone else.

Simple, I quote from Guru Granth Sahib and you quote from websites and DR's. Your the weakest link goodbye!

Oh and:

ਬੰਦੇ ਚਸਮ ਦੀਦੰ ਫਨਾਇ ॥

ਦੁਨਂੀਆ ਮੁਰਦਾਰ ਖੁਰਦਨੀ ਗਾਫਲ ਹਵਾਇ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

ਗੈਬਾਨ ਹੈਵਾਨ ਹਰਾਮ ਕੁਸਤਨੀ ਮੁਰਦਾਰ ਬਖੋਰਾਇ ॥

ਦਿਲ ਕਬਜ ਕਬਜਾ ਕਾਦਰੋ ਦੋਜਕ ਸਜਾਇ ॥੨॥

Oh and:

ਪਉੜੀ 21 ( ਨਿਗੁਰਾ ਮਨਮੁਖੁ ਵਸ ਵਿਚ ਨਹੀ ਆ ਸਕਦਾ )

ਕੁਹੈ ਕਸਾਈ ਬਕਰੀ ਲਾਇ ਲੂਣ ਸੀਖ ਮਾਸੁ ਪਰੋਆ॥ ਹਸਿ ਹਸਿ ਬੋਲੇ ਕੁਹੀਂਦੀ ਖਾਧੇ ਅਕਿ ਹਾਲੁ ਇਹੁ ਹੋਆ॥

ਮਾਸ ਖਾਨਿ ਗਲਿ ਛੁਰੀ ਦੇ ਹਾਲੁ ਤਿਨਾੜਾ ਕਉਣੁ ਅਲੋਆ॥ ਜੀਭੈ ਹੰਦਾ ਫੇੜਿਆ ਖਉ ਦੰਦਾਂ ਮੁਹੁ ਭੰਨਿ ਵਿਗੋਆ॥

ਪਰ ਤਨ ਪਰ ਧਨ ਨਿੰਦ ਕਰਿ ਹੋਇ ਦੁਜੀਭਾ ਬਿਸੀਅਰੁ ਭੋਆ॥ ਵਸਿ ਆਵੈ ਗੁਰੁਮੰਤ ਸਪੁ ਨਿਗੁਰਾ ਮਨਮੁਖੁ ਸੁਣੈ ਨ ਸੋਆ॥

ਵੇਖਿ ਨ ਚਲੈ ਅਗੈ ਟੋਆ

Again means nothing.

Quote the entire shabad rather than a few lines.

Please stop making such a big deal and just agree to disagree, rather than using slander and cheapshots. If you don’t understand something its not a big deal. We are all still learning.

[Hardeep__singh]

Also Baghat Sadhana was a butcher…….was he and his profession so bad that the Guru’s condemned him? No in fact they included his hymms in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

One evening, a customer came and asked Sadhna, "Weigh for me a leg of mutton."

Sadhna said, "There is no meat left now. Please come tomorrow and take it."

The customer said, "I need the meat badly now. I have very important guests and nothing to cook for them. Please you must help me out. I am a loyal, regular and old customer of your family's business. You may charge double the price for it."

Sadhna said, "If I slaughter a goat now, it will rot by tomorrow."

The man said, "You have no need to slaughter a goat. Just cut one leg and give it to me."

Pressed by the customer, Sadhna went near the goat with a hatchet. As he approached the goat, he felt as if the goat was laughing. This shocked Sadhna.

Then the goat said: "O' Sadhna, in your worldly greed, today you are going to open a new account of pain and misery. We have been going through many thousands of births and deaths; but never before has any of us cut a limb off a live animal. You are beginning a new level of cruelty!"

At this point, the hatchet fell out of Sadhna's hand and he turned to the customer to tell him of his helplessness. But there was no one there. He did not find any customer there. A thought came to Sadhna's mind, "It was the Lord Himself Who had come to reveal Himself to his devotee in the form of a customer."

With dedication and devotion, Bhagat Sadhna obtained salvation - "…. Kabir, …. Sadhana and Sain crossed over. Says Ravi Daas, listen, O Saints, through the Dear Lord, all is accomplished." (Sggs Page 1106).

The lord himself condemed him and he got salvation and after that his words got incorporated because he learnt the lesson and he wished to share it with others and this has got nothing to do with eating meat.

What on God’s dear earth are you saying?

Are you trying to impose a caste system on Sikhism again?

There is another story before this about the weight stone….maybe you should read that too, where Sadhana’s profession as a butcher is praised because he does it with a honest heart.

Other so called lowley jobs are that of a leather worker, musician etc too…!!

and thats bull there is no line in gurbani on page 141 as you suggest:

"Nanak, another's right is swine for him (the Musalman) and cow for him (the Hindu)."

(Guru Nanak, pg. 141)

Your wrong, read the page properly:

O Nanak, God shall preserve your honor. || 1 || FIRST MEHL: To take what rightfully belongs to another, is like a Muslim eating pork, or a Hindu eating beef. Our Guru, our Spiritual Guide, stands by us, if we do not eat those carcasses. By mere talk, people do not earn passage to Heaven. Salvation comes only from the practice of Truth. By adding spices to forbidden foods, they are not made acceptable. O Nanak, from false talk, only falsehood is obtained. || 2 || FIRST MEHL: There are five prayers and five times of day for prayer; the five have five names. Let the first be truthfulness, the second honest living, and the third charity in the Name of God. Let the fourth be good will to all, and the fifth the praise of the Lord. Repeat the prayer of good deeds, and then, you may call yourself a Muslim. O Nanak, the false obtain falsehood, and only falsehood. || 3 || PAUREE: Some trade in priceless jewels, while others deal in mere glass. When the True Guru is pleased, we find the treasure of the jewel, deep within the self. Without the Guru, no one has found this treasure. The blind and the false have died in their endless wanderings. The self-willed manmukhs putrefy and die in duality. They do not understand contemplative meditation. Without the One Lord, there is no other at all. Unto whom should they complain? Some are destitute, and wander around endlessly, while others have storehouses of wealth. Without God's Name, there is no other wealth. Everything else is just poison and ashes. O Nanak, the Lord Himself acts, and causes others to act; by the Hukam of His Command, we are embellished and exalted. || 7 || SHALOK, FIRST MEHL: It is difficult to be called a Muslim; if one is truly a Muslim, then he may be called one. First, let him savor the religion of the Prophet as sweet; then, let his pride of his possessions be scraped away. Becoming a true Muslim, a disciple of the faith of Mohammed, let him put aside the delusion of death and life. As he submits to God's Will, and surrenders to the Creator, he is rid of selfishness and conceit. And when, O Nanak, he is merciful to all beings, only then shall he be called a Muslim. || 1 || FOURTH MEHL: Renounce sexual desire, anger, falsehood and slander; forsake Maya and eliminate egotistical pride. Renounce sexual desire and promiscuity, and give up emotional attachment. Only then shall you obtain the Immaculate Lord amidst the darkness of the world. Renounce selfishness, conceit and arrogant pride, and your love for your children and spouse. Abandon your thirsty hopes and desires, and embrace love for the Lord. O Nanak, the True One shall come to dwell in your mind. Through the True Word of the Shabad, you shall be absorbed in the Name of the Lord. || 2 || PAUREE: Neither the kings, nor their subjects, nor the leaders shall remain. The shops, the cities and the streets shall eventually disintegrate, by the Hukam of the Lord's Command. Those solid and beautiful mansions - the fools think that they belong to them. The treasure-houses, filled with wealth, shall be emptied out in an instant. The horses, chariots, camels and elephants, with all their decorations; the gardens, lands, houses, tents, soft beds and satin pavilions - Oh, where are those things, which they believe to be their own? O Nanak, the True One is the Giver of all; He is revealed through His All-powerful Creative Nature. || 8 || SHALOK, FIRST MEHL: If the rivers became cows, giving milk, and the spring water became milk and ghee;

Again this shabad confirms this is nothing to do with meat but taking away someone’s rights. So it is not bull. Maybe you may worship the cow and the bull and shouldn’t take the name in vain .

From this notion, Randip, your revealing falsehood and you dont even know what your talking about to be honest. So take your meat eating topics where they really belong to, in the BIN!

They don’t belong into the bin, but your ignorant thinking does. From another post you said you were older than me, but from what I am reading you cannot be older than 20.

Prove that the hukamnamas are true, what next you going to say I read so and so by Dr this and that, read the granth and find out.

I you have been studying Sikh History for at least 20 years, you will come to realise that there are a lot of false documents out there attributed to the Guru’s. They have been planted by Brahmin’s and Hindu Vaishnav’s.

Previously you said and misinterpretated:

Awpy mwCI mCulI Awpy pwxI jwlu ] (23-12, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

aapay maachhee machhulee aapay paanee jaal.

He Himself is the fisherman and the fish; He Himself is the water and the net.

Awpy jwl mxkVw Awpy AMdir lwlu ]2] (23-12, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

aapay jaal mankarhaa aapay andar laal. ||2||

He Himself is the sinker, and He Himself is the bait. ||2||

Awpy bhu ibiD rMgulw sKIey myrw lwlu ] (23-13, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

aapay baho biDh rangulaa sakhee-ay mayraa laal.

He Himself loves in so many ways. O sister soul-brides, He is my Beloved.

inq rvY sohwgxI dyKu hmwrw hwlu ]3] (23-13, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

nit ravai sohaaganee daykh hamaaraa haal. ||3||

He continually ravishes and enjoys the happy soul-brides; just look at the plight I am in without Him! ||3||

Are you so like a stone that you cant understand what Gurbani means, Herelet me clarify it for you:

God is everywhere in the person who hunts for meat, hes in the water, he is in the fish he is in me and you. All you can think is the Gurbani is a food menu lol! u make me laugh! u just proved your own words.

My thinking is not on Brahmin’s and Hindu Vaishnav’s, my quotes are direct from the Granth, so stop bringing the stupid influence from Hindus and Brahmins.

"Again this shabad confirms this is nothing to do with meat but taking away someone’s rights. So it is not bull".

Again bull, sorry but there is no justification in your answer. oh and IS IT? READ IT PROPERLY, if you can read that is lol! Read and research and find out from the granth, if you cant don chat tutti on the forum, simple as.

You have researched sikh history for 20 years, wow, intelligence shows and all you cud think of is a menu, listen, I am a lot older than 20 if you want to meet me come to LEEDS, UK, I will meet you and you can find out how old i am.

Of course its a big deal, you cant understand Gurmukhi, full stop, hence your still learning, but you must be a low grade student, not my fault. Oh and by the way it is the full shabad, you <banned word filter activated>. Hahahahahah I cant believe it you are so naive, you didnt even knew that was full shabad.

[randip singh]

Previously you said and misinterpretated:

Awpy mwCI mCulI Awpy pwxI jwlu ] (23-12, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

aapay maachhee machhulee aapay paanee jaal.

He Himself is the fisherman and the fish; He Himself is the water and the net.

Awpy jwl mxkVw Awpy AMdir lwlu ]2] (23-12, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

aapay jaal mankarhaa aapay andar laal. ||2||

He Himself is the sinker, and He Himself is the bait. ||2||

Awpy bhu ibiD rMgulw sKIey myrw lwlu ] (23-13, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

aapay baho biDh rangulaa sakhee-ay mayraa laal.

He Himself loves in so many ways. O sister soul-brides, He is my Beloved.

inq rvY sohwgxI dyKu hmwrw hwlu ]3] (23-13, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

nit ravai sohaaganee daykh hamaaraa haal. ||3||

He continually ravishes and enjoys the happy soul-brides; just look at the plight I am in without Him! ||3||

Before the above is mentioned, it mentions:

rMig rqw myrw swihbu riv rihAw BrpUir ]1] rhwau ] (23-11, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

rang rataa mayraa saahib rav rahi-aa bharpoor. ||1|| rahaa-o.

My Lord and Master is imbued with love; He is totally permeating and pervading all. ||1||Pause||

Premeating mean saturated and Pervading mean infused in all no matter if we are murderers, robbers or meat eaters or vegetarians, so it just goes to show you have picked and twisted the bani, not me.

Are you so like a stone that you cant understand what Gurbani means, Herelet me clarify it for you:

God is everywhere in the person who hunts for meat, hes in the water, he is in the fish he is in me and you. All you can think is the Gurbani is a food menu lol! u make me laugh! u just proved your own words.

I have not misinterpreted or misunderstood. Not twisted......I think you have dreams of chicken drumsticks. I think meat is constantly on your mind. I think the thought of it clouds your thinking and stops you from thinking clearly.

My thinking is not on Brahmins and Hindu Vaishnavs, my quotes are direct from the Granth, so stop bringing the stupid influence from Hindus and Brahmins.

The thinking seems to come straight from an RSS VHP or Vaishnav Hindu proaganda leaflet.......thats why I asked.

"Again this shabad confirms this is nothing to do with meat but taking away someone’s rights. So it is not bull".

Again bull, sorry but there is no justification in your answer. oh and IS IT? READ IT PROPERLY, if you can read that is lol! Read and research and find out from the granth, if you cant dont chat silly on the forum, simple as.

Great..intelligent chat from an old man using words like "bull". .......and "u" instead of "you". I'm reading but you simply don't understand.

You have researched sikh history for 20 years, wow, intelligence shows and all you cud think of is a menu, listen, I am a lot older than 20 if you want to meet me come to LEEDS, UK, I will meet you and you can find out how old i am.

You write like a teenager. I based in Birmingham, but if you wish to meet me, i expect you to be civil.

You couldnt not even translate the Gurmukhi I quoted, can you even read? LOL! so how to you expect me to argue against your comments, when you dont even know anything about Gurbani, perhaps you need to ask your parents.

I can translate it.....but the question is can YOU understand it......I think not. However, you should learn from your parents that "you" is not "u"........."cud" id "could"..........and what the Gurmukhi word for humanity or human is.

Full shabad...not segement...

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥

ik-oNkaar satgur parsaad.

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਖਾਕ ਨੂਰ ਕਰਦੰ ਆਲਮ ਦੁਨੀਆਇ ॥

खाक नूर करदं आलम दुनीआइ ॥

khaak noor kardaN aalam dunee-aa-ay.

The Lord infused His Light into the dust, and created the world, the universe.

ਅਸਮਾਨ ਜਿਮੀ ਦਰਖਤ ਆਬ ਪੈਦਾਇਸਿ ਖੁਦਾਇ ॥੧॥

असमान जिमी दरखत आब पैदाइसि खुदाइ ॥१॥

asmaan jimee darkhat aab paidaa-is khudaa-ay. ||1||

The sky, the earth, the trees, and the water - all are the Creation of the Lord. ||1||

ਬੰਦੇ ਚਸਮ ਦੀਦੰ ਫਨਾਇ ॥

बंदे चसम दीदं फनाइ ॥

banday chasam deedaN fanaa-ay.

O human being, whatever you can see with your eyes, shall perish.

ਦੁਨਂ​‍ੀਆ ਮੁਰਦਾਰ ਖੁਰਦਨੀ ਗਾਫਲ ਹਵਾਇ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

दुनींआ मुरदार खुरदनी गाफल हवाइ ॥ रहाउ ॥

duneeN-aa murdaar khurdanee gaafal havaa-ay. rahaa-o.

The world eats dead carcasses, living by neglect and greed. ||Pause||

ਗੈਬਾਨ ਹੈਵਾਨ ਹਰਾਮ ਕੁਸਤਨੀ ਮੁਰਦਾਰ ਬਖੋਰਾਇ ॥

गैबान हैवान हराम कुसतनी मुरदार बखोराइ ॥

gaibaan haivaan haraam kustanee murdaar bakhoraa-ay.

Like a goblin, or a beast, they kill and eat the forbidden carcasses of meat.

ਦਿਲ ਕਬਜ ਕਬਜਾ ਕਾਦਰੋ ਦੋਜਕ ਸਜਾਇ ॥੨॥

दिल कबज कबजा कादरो दोजक सजाइ ॥२॥

dil kabaj kabjaa kaadro dojak sajaa-ay. ||2||

So control your urges, or else you will be seized by the Lord, and thrown into the tortures of hell. ||2||

ਵਲੀ ਨਿਆਮਤਿ ਬਿਰਾਦਰਾ ਦਰਬਾਰ ਮਿਲਕ ਖਾਨਾਇ ॥

वली निआमति बिरादरा दरबार मिलक खानाइ ॥

valee ni-aamat biraadaraa darbaar milak khaanaa-ay.

Your benefactors, presents, companions, courts, lands and homes -

ਜਬ ਅਜਰਾਈਲੁ ਬਸਤਨੀ ਤਬ ਚਿ ਕਾਰੇ ਬਿਦਾਇ ॥੩॥

जब अजराईलु बसतनी तब चि कारे बिदाइ ॥३॥

jab ajraa-eel bastanee tab chay kaaray bidaa-ay. ||3||

when Azraa-eel, the Messenger of Death seizes you, what good will these be to you then? ||3||

ਹਵਾਲ ਮਾਲੂਮੁ ਕਰਦੰ ਪਾਕ ਅਲਾਹ ॥

हवाल मालूमु करदं पाक अलाह ॥

havaal maaloom kardaN paak alaah.

The Pure Lord God knows your condition.

ਬੁਗੋ ਨਾਨਕ ਅਰਦਾਸਿ ਪੇਸਿ ਦਰਵੇਸ ਬੰਦਾਹ ॥੪॥੧॥

बुगो नानक अरदासि पेसि दरवेस बंदाह ॥४॥१॥

bugo naanak ardaas pays darvays bandaah. ||4||1||

O Nanak, recite your prayer to the holy people. ||4||1||

Again nothing to do with meat eating....."gaibaan haivaan haraam kustanee murdaar bakhoraa-ay.".............is a refrence to people exploiting each other and metaphorical. Infact murdaar is a refrence used in terms of dead people.

[Hardeep__singh]

Previously you said and misinterpretated:

Awpy mwCI mCulI Awpy pwxI jwlu ] (23-12, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

aapay maachhee machhulee aapay paanee jaal.

He Himself is the fisherman and the fish; He Himself is the water and the net.

Awpy jwl mxkVw Awpy AMdir lwlu ]2] (23-12, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

aapay jaal mankarhaa aapay andar laal. ||2||

He Himself is the sinker, and He Himself is the bait. ||2||

Awpy bhu ibiD rMgulw sKIey myrw lwlu ] (23-13, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

aapay baho biDh rangulaa sakhee-ay mayraa laal.

He Himself loves in so many ways. O sister soul-brides, He is my Beloved.

inq rvY sohwgxI dyKu hmwrw hwlu ]3] (23-13, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

nit ravai sohaaganee daykh hamaaraa haal. ||3||

He continually ravishes and enjoys the happy soul-brides; just look at the plight I am in without Him! ||3||

Before the above is mentioned, it mentions:

rMig rqw myrw swihbu riv rihAw BrpUir ]1] rhwau ] (23-11, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)

rang rataa mayraa saahib rav rahi-aa bharpoor. ||1|| rahaa-o.

My Lord and Master is imbued with love; He is totally permeating and pervading all. ||1||Pause||

Premeating mean saturated and Pervading mean infused in all no matter if we are murderers, robbers or meat eaters or vegetarians, so it just goes to show you have picked and twisted the bani, not me.

Are you so like a stone that you cant understand what Gurbani means, Herelet me clarify it for you:

God is everywhere in the person who hunts for meat, hes in the water, he is in the fish he is in me and you. All you can think is the Gurbani is a food menu lol! u make me laugh! u just proved your own words.

I have not misinterpreted or misunderstood. Not twisted......I think you have dreams of chicken drumsticks. I think meat is constantly on your mind. I think the thought of it clouds your thinking and stops you from thinking clearly.

My thinking is not on Brahmins and Hindu Vaishnavs, my quotes are direct from the Granth, so stop bringing the stupid influence from Hindus and Brahmins.

The thinking seems to come straight from an RSS VHP or Vaishnav Hindu proaganda leaflet.......thats why I asked.

"Again this shabad confirms this is nothing to do with meat but taking away someone’s rights. So it is not bull".

Again bull, sorry but there is no justification in your answer. oh and IS IT? READ IT PROPERLY, if you can read that is lol! Read and research and find out from the granth, if you cant dont chat silly on the forum, simple as.

Great..intelligent chat from an old man using words like "bull". .......and "u" instead of "you". I'm reading but you simply don't understand.

You have researched sikh history for 20 years, wow, intelligence shows and all you cud think of is a menu, listen, I am a lot older than 20 if you want to meet me come to LEEDS, UK, I will meet you and you can find out how old i am.

You write like a teenager. I based in Birmingham, but if you wish to meet me, i expect you to be civil.

You couldnt not even translate the Gurmukhi I quoted, can you even read? LOL! so how to you expect me to argue against your comments, when you dont even know anything about Gurbani, perhaps you need to ask your parents.

I can translate it.....but the question is can YOU understand it......I think not. However, you should learn from your parents that "you" is not "u"........."cud" id "could"..........and what the Gurmukhi word for humanity or human is.

Now from this:

I have not misinterpreted or misunderstood. Not twisted......I think you have dreams of chicken drumsticks. I think meat is constantly on your mind. I think the thought of it clouds your thinking and stops you from thinking clearly.

Your chatting out of your ******, its you whose thinking that meat is is allowed, hence thinking about chicken drumsticks not me, so dont tell me i am thinking about it.

Prove it in your own words, what the Shabads are, you simply cant, so forget it ok.

So you are calling Guru Granth Sahib a mere leaflet, al eaflet of RSS, think again, your just a lil man, sat behind the computer doiing nothing but reading the professors mind. I dont want to chat to you, your waste of space and my time, in fact this is my last message to you...

Listen, read and learn, shall I get you a book on that. In fact go to GNNSJ and ask them if your correct, they are mature and will tell you that you are incorrect. Thats why they dont serve meat in the langar, no doubt Guru ji will put you in the right from wrong.

NO OFFENCE intended, I am quite bored of this now, so I am leaving it. You carry on with your falsehoods, I am off

[Sarbloh Warrior]

FOOLS WHO CONTINUE TO WRANGLE ABOUT FLESH I MEAN LISTEN TO THE TITLE OF THE TOPIC THEY ARE FOOLS WHO WRANGLE ... SO STOP THE WRANGLING

[randip singh]

FOOLS WHO CONTINUE TO WRANGLE ABOUT FLESH I MEAN LISTEN TO THE TITLE OF THE TOPIC THEY ARE FOOLS WHO WRANGLE ... SO STOP THE WRANGLING

Absolutely spot on and you have said the most sensible thing here....why we wrote this essay......to stop idiotic chit chat like this....and I find myself doing it......

Thanks for the great words Sarbloh Ji to remind me to not let my Ego run away with me. :D

On that note I bow out of this worthless debate.

[Only five]

Randip Singh

Where are you?

Your article got ripped apart and you have not responded yet. Take a close look at this writing.

Why would jhatka be permitted when these guys that want to eat meat use bani that says the sugar cane also suffers when being crushed to justify meat eating. Vegetables are also be chopped into bits and they must be crying, and suffering all the time. So why can we put vegetables throw this pain, but not an animal. For an animal we have to strike it with one blow. This does not make sense because if animals and vegetables are the same on the food line then we should be able to cut an animal however we choose, just as we do with vegetables. And this whole Muslims cut the throat slowly and let it bleed to death is a big so what. Didn't the vegetable suffer when we cut it bit by bit. Didn't the juices of the vegetable come out slowly, cutting it bit by bit.

Why would Guru Gobind SIngh Sahib ji allow Sikh to cruelly cut one food(vegetables) and the other he would say the Muslims are making the animal suffer, so now on Sikhs have to eat meat when the animal is struck with one blow and killed. Why would Guru Sahib have a double standard when vegetarian food and meat is on the same line according to the meat eaters.

Second arguement these guys like to present is that Muslims were making a sacrifice of the meat to God and reading prayers to make it pure to eat. In this sense to start jhatka does not make sense still. because the food still can be made a sacrifice to God doesn't matter, which way you cut the animal. Can't the mantra be said two or three minutes before they strike the animal with one blow to purifify the food. The only thing Jhatka gets rid of is cruelty of the animal by one blow. But according to the meat eaters in Gurbani the sugar cane is crushed and feels pain. So why be the hypocrite and cruelly let a sugar cane suffer, but not let an animal suffer. Why the double standard.

Then last one they bring up is, jhatka was started to abolish the Muslim way of killing animals. What does it abolish that an animal is pure. This is already written in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. That animal sacrifice is wrong, again already written in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. As you can see above it doesn't solve this problem and if you say it does then you get labeled as a hypocrite for letting a vegetable suffer on the frying pan.

1. The arguement that vegetables/grain/fruit is the same as meat does not hold.

2. The jhatka way does not solve anything.

3. It proves that meat eaters have a double standard for meat and vegetables, but with the same tongue say both are the same.

[jassa]

And a fool bumps it :lol:

[Only five]

And a fool bumps it

Singh, you tried to rip my article apart, but was unsuccesful. Do you wanna give it another shot.