Fools Who Continue To Wrangle

[Heera Singh]

randip singh... the article aside.. i wanna ask u a few questions.. simple and straight forward... 1.. are you amritdhari? if yes, then wha'd ur panj pyaray say about the meat issue?... if no.. then continue wrangling

[randip singh]

Thats right,

everyone’s posts are irrelevant, inaccurate or just "pull points out of the air" except for your own!

its ok for you to make false claims such as "in all probability he (Bhagat kabeer Ji) ate Halal (because he was a Muslim)" (amongst others) and when your proven you wrong you switch the lines of the argument and say

"but Bhaghat Kabir is not the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.......In anycase the debate is irrelevant because you won't read the post before commenting on it...."

who even said bhagat kabeerji is the Guru Granth Sahib ji?? you always use these words as your get out of jail free card “that’s irrelevant, that’s inaccurate, that’s not important, that’s pulling points out of the air”.

Another thing is for you its ok to post the views of

Surindar Singh Kohli, Singh Bros.

A History of the Sikh People by Dr. Gopal Singh, World Sikh University Press, Delhi

Philosophy of Sikhism by Gyani Sher Singh (Ph.D), Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee. Amritsar

A Popular Dictionary of Sikhism, W.Owen Cole and Piara Singh Sambhi, England

Dr. H.S. Singha and Satwant Kaur, Hemkunt Press, Delhi

And many many many more,

(which no person has objected to) But if any person mentions the opinion of chardi kala well respected Gursikh saants and sevadar’s of the panth, your only reply is

“I am not concerned with Sants and Baba's!! I am not even interested in your opinion....but hard facts”.

well maby your not interested?! But other people are which is why they have voiced their opinions.

common sort your own comments out before you go point out at everyone elses.

For someone who does not want to debate you are doing a good job........

Fortunately I have posted facts by experts in the field ......wheras you are just someone on the net who cannot even critically analyse an essay without resorting to diartribe or back up fact with refrences, page numbers etc.

Here is what you have selectively quoted from the above article:

“one can only conclude that some of the Guru’s were indeed vegetarian and some meat eaters”

Here is what the article says:

Now clearly we know the message of the Guru’s was uniform. It was not that they contradicted each other on issues such as meat eating. If some of this authors writings are to be believed as factual, then one can only conclude that some of the Guru’s were indeed vegetarian and some meat eaters, but it was not an issue that mattered to them or which they attached importance to. The author in this instance has liberally applied his own thoughts in order to show a contradiction amongst the Sikh Guru’s teaching and possibly a mean to exploit division. There was no contradiction in Sikh thought from the First Master to the Last.

Enough said I think.

randip singh... the article aside.. i wanna ask u a few questions.. simple and straight forward... 1.. are you amritdhari? if yes, then wha'd ur panj pyaray say about the meat issue?... if no.. then continue wrangling

For 1...none of your business

for 2 none of your buisness.

Regards

[randip singh]

looks like we are still wrangling about this subject...

Please, let's justleave this topic for now before someone gets hurt.

We fail to attack the message...so lets attack the messanger......classic strategy of the defeated...

I noticed you experienced this too Bindy.........

[Paneer Monster]

atleast i can admit i had taken that one sentence out of context... look back on all your posts in this thread and see you have made many more. EG You bring up a discussion about Bhagat Kabeer Ji, you slandered him with false claims, and when I justified the life of Bhagat Kabeer you showed no acknowledgment. You basically initiated this topic with a one track mind (on the poultry section) and have probably discouraged other users that genuinely would like to contribute to this topic.

your attitude is simply..."im right, im right, im right... im judge and jury, i decide what posts are valid and what posts are not"...

On one hand you say by all means lets have a discussion, yet when one person has the courage to contribute you snap at them and you show no interest in the opinion of other users yet you expect everyone to listen to your views. One of the users in this thread asked you genuine questions inorder to see your viewpoint however, you responded in a rude and abrupt manner. “none of ur business, none of your business ”…… and then you have the nerve to call me childish when you was the one who was rude to me in the first place. Then you hide behind posts belly dancing all over my arguments.

You randip can not see where your errors are yourself. At least I have displayed a degree of self critical analysis….by no means am I saying I am perfect, but I do take on other the perspective of others.

Vahegurujikakhalsavahegurujikifateh

[randip singh]

Jugga...I'm sorry if I have offended you.

Now back to the topic at hand....any constructive comments?

Thanks

[The Khalsa Fauj]

People ask for churdi kala Gurmukhs who ate and eat meat. There are lots. Not only that, they were/are all Gurmat gyanis and don't misuse Gurbani and call themselves Sants, or 108s or Brahmgyanis.

Here is a list:

Hari Singh Nalwa

Jassa Singh Ahluwalia

Akali Nihung Phoola Singh

Sardar Churrt Singh

Prof. Gurmukh Singh - Singh Sabha founder, 1st ever newspaper in Punjabi

Gyani Ditt Singh - Singh Sabha leader, wrote countless books on Gurmat

Nihung Chet Singh Budda Dal

Bhai Kaan Singh Nabha (He wrote: Mahan Kosh, Gurmat Maartund, Gurmat parbhaakr, Hum Hindu Nahee, etc.)

Prof. Sahib Singh (teekakaar Guru Granth Sahib Ji)

Prof. Darshan Singh

Inder Singh Ghugga

Bhai Taru Singh

All those puratan Shaheeds and warriors

Gyani Santokh Singh - Sooraj Parkash (all babas do katha from this granth)

Principal Harbhajan Singh (give khitaab of Bhai Sahib by Akaal Takht)

- This khitaab also given to Bhai Randhir Singh

Akali Nihung Kaur Singh

Bhai Veer Singh

and prob. many more

And Above all, our SatGuru Mahraaj Ji

e.g. Guru Nanak Ji on visits to hardwar and Kurukshater, etc.

e.g. Guu Gobind SIngh Ji at madho dass dera and at Anandpur

Guys, it is just food. All upjeo from water. Different forms of water, read Gurbani - 1289 and 1290

All clear there.

[N30S1NGH]

Eating meat or not eating meat all depends on your avastha, it's defaniately not black and white issue as some premis claim to be.

I don't like to nit pick specific actions taken by mahapursh and start presenting it as maryada. I usually post sakhiya's of mahapursh which has all do with spiritual expereinces or some times post sakhiya's of their sipahi hood to get doubts out of all people mind.

My only intention to present baba attar singh ji sakhi with baba chet singh ji budda dal sakhi is to challenge common mindset sikh these days have- which is black and white sikhi. do and do not and judge everyone according to that. What they don't get is, there is always exceptional cases or grey area. Take meat issue for example, you will get people who are soo binded with meat issue either pro or against that they will judge other person or group only by that factor not according to avastha. Mahapursh who are fully veggie they don't do that, they judge others by avastha. I also try to follow same type of foot steps. I am veggie myself also acknowledge that meat does affect's learner(jagiaso sikh) spirituality- especially thoughts. But I also acknowledge that once you are in certain stage then eating meat or not eating meat does not effect's anything.Here is another one- Bhai Vir Singh Ji he himself mentioned in his book that when he was ill he had to eat meat for health reasons. will someone hold that against him and consider that as downfall in his bhagti? don't know.. depends on person's mindset if person is out of black and white sikhi then probably not, will not matter since we are not JAINS either.

Here is the sakhi:

This sakhi was told by a old nihang singh who was in nihang baba chet singh ji's time. It's between sant baba attar singh ji mustanewaley and sant baba chet singh ji budda dal.Sant baba attar singh ji mustaneywale went to sant baba chet singh ji budda dal. Baba Chet Singh ji ate meat with full maryada (full ishana of oneself, recitation of sri akaal ustat or chandi di //). Baba Chet Singh Ji was sitting on a manja just about to eat meat when sant baba attar singh ji arrived. He did not felt right to eat Meat alone so he offered some to Sant baba attar singh ji mustaneywaley. Sant baba attar singh ji being veggie accepted this notion and ate it by reciting this shabad: Gurparsad Bhram Ka Nash There were few chelas of baba attar singh ji mustaneywale who didn't understand this katuak of mahapursh and were shocked about this event and even to level to doubt their own mahapursh acts, but later they were given updesh that yes by eating meat it's somewhat effects person's spirituality but at the same time there are enough exceptional cases out there where eating meat does not effect their avasta. Their Avastha is sam(stable).

[randip singh]

Look people,

We can get into this game of one up manship. There were x amount of Sikh meat eaters....there were x amount of Sikh vegetarians. The point of the essay is that the two groups have ALWAYS coexisted and this was never an issue for them. They sat together, the fought together, and they DIED together.

We have made an issue of something that has no relevance to Sikhism. THAT is the point of the essay. To impose our own belief onto others is pure Hankaar and egotism........and the point of the essay is also how some have tried to impose their own viewpoint on others.

Various reasons for this lie in:

- lack of understand ing of Bani

- lack of understanding of sikh history

- hindu vashnavite influences.

- genuine concerns for animal rights

etc etc.

Again I point out, that this essay although compiled by one Vegetarian and one Meat eating Sikh had input from Amritdhari's (meat eater, vegetarian)....non-Amritdhari's (meat eater, vegetarian).............and they were all happy with a consensus.

The goal of this is ultimately to create UNITY in the Paanth......not division!

[Lion(LK)King]

Our of curiosity...although it is irrelevant..completly irrelevant.. I was wondering if you have evidence to support your claim that all those Gurmukhs ate meat (The Khalsa Fauj)

Akali Kaur Singh, for example, as far as I'm aware stopped eating meat at a later point in his life...

I know it's irrelevant...but just out of courisity... I mean historians rarely mention the Shaheedi of Bhai Taru Singh (I believe even cunningham's book misses it out.. mite be wrong..)..so how can we be sure of his diet..

I can understand that Akali Phoola Singh, Jassa Singh Alhuwalia and Hari Singh Nalwa.. historians probably mentioned it...

But what is rhe evidence that the...or the Singh Sabha people.. ate it..

. what evidence do you have to back up the names provided...

Again, I know its irrelevant who ate meat and who didn't...just that considering how poorly our history is written.. it surprises me that you were able to provide names.....and information about their diet. Just out of curisoity......

Again hopefully you can provide contemporary references......and back up your statements..

[randip singh]

Our of curiosity...although it is irrelevant..completly irrelevant.. I was wondering if you have evidence to support your claim that all those Gurmukhs ate meat (The Khalsa Fauj)

Akali Kaur Singh, for example, as far as I'm aware stopped eating meat at a later point in his life...

I know it's irrelevant...but just out of courisity... I mean historians rarely mention the Shaheedi of Bhai Taru Singh (I believe even cunningham's book misses it out.. mite be wrong..)..so how can we be sure of his diet..

I can understand that Akali Phoola Singh, Jassa Singh Alhuwalia and Hari Singh Nalwa.. historians probably mentioned it...

But what is rhe evidence that the...or the Singh Sabha people.. ate it..

. what evidence do you have to back up the names provided...

Again, I know its irrelevant who ate meat and who didn't...just that considering how poorly our history is written.. it surprises me that you were able to provide names.....and information about their diet. Just out of curisoity......

Again hopefully you can provide contemporary references......and back up your statements..

Hi LK.......I don't think anyone attatched importance to what they ate.....thats why its not recorded by them. They ate too keep fit and strong and what their own conscience told them was Ok.