Attention: Subway Eaters!

[Lionchild]

Well that is a problem - the Panj Pyare could have their own views and mix it into their instructions, that is why we must question them ahead of time to make sure they are not trying to mix their own views on this stuff.

PSK: read randip singh's and think about what you said. :TH:

I.eat meat and veggies, i'm not pro anything when it comes to diet. I prefer some types of foods, but i don't tell others that it's the only way - that would be ego and greed for power.

These kinds of dabates usually show that the pro veggie people are most aggressive, power hungry, and angry. :D

[Guest PRITAM SINGH KHALSA]

O human being, whatever you can see with your eyes, shall perish.

dhuna(n)aeeaa muradhaar khuradhanee gaafal havaae || rehaao ||

The world eats dead carcasses, living by neglect and greed. ||Pause||

gaibaan haivaan haraam kusathanee muradhaar bakhoraae ||

Like a goblin, or a beast, they kill and eat the forbidden carcasses of meat.

dhil kabaj kabajaa kaadharo dhojak sajaae ||2||

So control your urges, or else you will be seized by the Lord, and thrown into the tortures of hell. ||2||

think about what GuruJi has said :TH:

[Lionchild]

O human being, whatever you can see with your eyes, shall perish.

dhuna(n)aeeaa muradhaar khuradhanee gaafal havaae || rehaao ||

The world eats dead carcasses, living by neglect and greed. ||Pause||

gaibaan haivaan haraam kusathanee muradhaar bakhoraae ||

Like a goblin, or a beast, they kill and eat the forbidden carcasses of meat.

dhil kabaj kabajaa kaadharo dhojak sajaae ||2||

So control your urges, or else you will be seized by the Lord, and thrown into the tortures of hell. ||2||

think about what GuruJi has said :TH:

Here you go, randip singh made a very good post, exposing the falsehoods of misinterpretation, please do not just take a few sentences out of the guru granth sahib ji - read the entire meaning:

MISTRANSLATION AND MISREPRESENTATION OF THE SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI

Some of the tukhs of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that are often mistranslated are as follows:

1. Those mortals who consume marijuana, flesh and wine - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. (SGGS p1377)

2. You kill living beings and worship lifeless things, at your very last moment, You will suffer terrible pain. (SGGS p332)

3. Do not say that the Vedas are false, false are those who do not reflect. If in all is one god, then why does one kill the hen ? (SGGS p1350)

4. Bhagat Kabir says, that the best food is eating kichree (daal/lentils) where nectar sweet is the salt. You eat hunted meat, but which animal is willing to have their head cut ? (SGGS p1374)

5. In this dark age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; They eat rotting dead bodies for food. (SGGS p1242

6. Falsehood is my dagger and to eat by defrauding is meat.

(Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Raaj p24)

7. Avarice is a dog, falsehood the sweeper and cheating the eating of meat.

(Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Raag p15)

Let us analyse each one of these one by one.

1. Those mortals who consume marijuana, flesh and wine - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. (SGGS p1337)

In this instance let us firstly add the Gurmukhi with the English:

mukat padaarath paa-ee-ai thaak na avghat ghaat.

He obtains the treasure of liberation, and the difficult road to the Lord is not blocked.

kabeer ayk gharhee aaDhee gharee aaDhee hooN tay aaDh.

Kabeer, whether is is for an hour, half an hour, or half of that,

bhagtan saytee gostay jo keenay so laabh.

whatever it is, it is worthwhile to speak with the Holy.

kabeer bhaaNg maachhulee suraa paan jo jo paraanee khaaNhi.

Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine -

tirath barat naym kee-ay tay sabhai rasaatal jaaNhi.

no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell.

neechay lo-in kar raha-o lay saajan ghat maahi.

Kabeer, I keep my eyes lowered, and enshrine my Friend within my heart.

sabh ras khayla-o pee-a sa-o kisee lakhaava-o naahi. ;

I enjoy all pleasures with my Beloved, but I do not let anyone else know. ;

aath jaam cha-usath gharee tu-a nirkhat rahai jee-o.

Twenty-four hours a day, every hour, my soul continues to look to You, O Lord.

neechay lo-in ki-o kara-o sabh ghat daykh-a-u pee-o. ;

Why should I keep my eyes lowered? I see my Beloved in every heart. ;

sun sakhee pee-a meh jee-o basai jee-a meh basai ke pee-o.

Listen, O my companions: my soul dwells in my Beloved, and my Beloved dwells in my soul.

jee-o pee-o boojha-o nahee ghat meh jee-o ke pee-o. ;

I realize that there is no difference between my soul and my Beloved; I cannot tell whether my

soul or my Beloved dwells in my heart. ;

kabeer baaman guroo hai jagat kaa bhagtan kaa gur naahi.

Kabeer, the Brahmin may be the guru of the world, but he is not the Guru of the devotees.

arajh urajh kai pach moo-aa chaara-o baydahu maahi. ;

He rots and dies in the perplexities of the four Vedas. ;

har hai khaaNd rayt meh bikhree haathee chunee na jaa-ay.

The Lord is like sugar, scattered in the sand; the elephant cannot pick it up.

kahi kabeer gur bhalee bujhaa-ee keetee ho-ay kai khaa-ay. ;

Says Kabeer, the Guru has given me this sublime understanding: become an ant, and feed on it. ;

kabeer ja-o tuhi saaDh piramm kee sees kaat kar go-ay.

Kabeer, if you desire to play the game of love with the Lord, then cut off your head, and make it into a ball.

khaylat khaylat haal kar jo kichh ho-ay ta ho-ay. ;

Lose yourself in the play of it, and then whatever will be, will be. ;

kabeer ja-o tuhi saaDh piramm kee paakay saytee khayl.

Kabeer, if you desire to play the game of love with the Lord, play it with someone with committment.

kaachee sarsa-uN payl kai naa khal bha-ee na tayl. ;

Pressing the unripe mustard seeds produces neither oil nor flour. ;

dhooNdhat doleh anDh gat ar cheenat naahee sant.

Searching, the mortal stumbles like a blind person, and does not recognize the Saint.

kahi naamaa ki-o paa-ee-ai bin bhagtahu bhagvant. ;

Says Naam Dayv, how can one obtain the Lord God, without His devotee? ;

har so heeraa chhaad kai karahi aan kee aas.

Forsaking the Diamond of the Lord, the mortals put their hopes in another.

tay nar dojak jaahigay sat bhaakhai ravidaas. ;

Those people shall go to hell; Ravi Daas speaks the Truth. ;

kabeer ja-o garihu karahi ta Dharam kar naahee ta kar bairaag.

Kabeer, if you live the householder's life, then practice righteousness; otherwise, you might as well retire from the world.

bairaagee banDhan karai taa ko bado abhaag. ;

If someone renounces the world, and then gets involved in worldly entanglements, he shall suffer terrible misfortune. ;

Taking out the sentence we see

kabeer bhaaNg maachhulee suraa paan jo jo paraanee khaaNhi.

Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine -

tirath barat naym kee-ay tay sabhai rasaatal jaaNhi. ;

no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. ;

Firstly note that maachlee is not flesh, but is indeed fish. The word in Punjabi for flesh is maas. Then secondly one must ask, why is there a forbidding in the consumption of fish specifically. The answer lies in reading the entire paragraph and a picture emerges. In the last two lines the statement is made:

kabeer ja-o garihu karahi ta Dharam kar naahee ta kar bairaag.

Kabeer, if you live the householder's life, then practice righteousness; otherwise, you might as well retire from the world.

bairaagee banDhan karai taa ko bado abhaag.;

If someone renounces the world, and then gets involved in worldly entanglements, he shall suffer terrible misfortune. ;

Now putting this in its entire context what Bhagat Kabir is actually criticising in the rich and those in power. The thrill seekers, who are addicted to their senses and those addicted to the 5 thieves. Kabir was born around the area of Benares, and was brought up in a poor Muslim weavers family. He saw the excesses of the rich around him, while the poor starved. Foods like fish and wine were associated with the rich who had an excessive disposable income. Marijuana was associated with either idol people or those who had time and money to waste. Kabir abhorred this, and this statement is a social comment about the excesses of the rich. At the end he clearly states, that those people who do their duties as householders (i.e. work hard, care for other etc) are the ones who will be liberated, and those who live by excesses will suffer. One cantherefore clearly see that this is in no way a comment about eating meat (because of mistranslation) or about avoiding certain foods (as has been misrepresented).

2. You kill living beings and worship lifeless things, at your very last moment, You will suffer terrible pain. (SGGS p332)

Again let us put this into its correct context:

ik-oNkaar satgur parsaad.

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

jeevat pitar na maanai ko-oo moo-ayN siraaDh karaahee.

He does not honor his ancestors while they are alive, but he holds feasts in their honor after they have died.

pitar bhee bapuray kaho ki-o paavahi ka-oo-aa kookar khaahee. ;

Tell me, how can his poor ancestors receive what the crows and the dogs have eaten up? ;

mo ka-o kusal bataavhu ko-ee.

If only someone would tell me what real happiness is!

kusal kusal kartay jag binsai kusal bhee kaisay ho-ee. ; rahaa-o.

Speaking of happiness and joy, the world is perishing. How can happiness be found? ;Pause;

maatee kay kar dayvee dayvaa tis aagai jee-o dayhee.

Making gods and goddesses out of clay, people sacrifice living beings to them.

aisay pitar tumaaray kahee-ahi aapan kahi-aa na layhee. ;

Such are your dead ancestors, who cannot ask for what they want. ;

sarjee-o kaateh nirjee-o poojeh ant kaal ka-o bhaaree.

You murder living beings and worship lifeless things; at your very last moment, you shall suffer in terrible pain.

raam naam kee gat nahee jaanee bhai doobay sansaaree.;

You do not know the value of the Lord's Name; you shall drown in the terrifying world-ocean. ;

dayvee dayvaa poojeh doleh paarbarahm nahee jaanaa.

You worship gods and goddesses, but you do not know the Supreme Lord God.

kahat kabeer akul nahee chayti-aa bikhi-aa si-o laptaanaa. ;

Says Kabeer, you have not remembered the Lord who has no ancestors; you are clinging to your corrupt ways. ;

Quite clearly when put into context this is nothing to do with meat eating. What is being alluded to is Hindu sacrificial rituals (eg Anustarani http://www.sanskrit.org/www/Rites%20...rs2.html#_ftn4) where animals were sacrificed on the funeral pyre, ancestors or to deities. Yet the Brahmins who performed these rituals were themselves devout vegetarians. This is a comment about the futility of animal sacrifices to stone idols and dead ancestors. It is a comment on hypocrisy.

3. Do not say that the Vedas are false, false are those who do not reflect. If in all is one god, then why does one kill the hen ? (SGGS p1350)

Again, let us put this into context:

parbhaatee.

Prabhaatee:

bayd katayb kahhu mat jhoothay jhoothaa jo na bichaarai.

Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false.

ja-o sabh meh ayk khudaa-ay kahat ha-o ta-o ki-o murgee maarai. ;

You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens? ;

mulaaN kahhu ni-aa-o khudaa-ee.

O Mullah, tell me: is this God's Justice?

tayray man kaa bharam na jaa-ee. ; rahaa-o.

The doubts of your mind have not been dispelled. ;Pause;

pakar jee-o aani-aa dayh binaasee maatee ka-o bismil kee-aa.

You seize a living creature, and then bring it home and kill its body; you have killed only the clay.

jot saroop anaahat laagee kaho halaal ki-aa kee-aa. ;

The light of the soul passes into another form. So tell me, what have you killed? ;

ki-aa ujoo paak kee-aa muhu Dho-i-aa ki-aa maseet sir laa-i-aa.

And what good are your purifications? Why do you bother to wash your face? And why do you bother to bow your head in the mosque?

ja-o dil meh kapat nivaaj gujaarahu ki-aa haj kaabai jaa-i-aa. ;

Your heart is full of hypocrisy; what good are your prayers or your pilgrimage to Mecca? ;

tooN naapaak paak nahee soojhi-aa tis kaa maram na jaani-aa.

You are impure; you do not understand the Pure Lord. You do not know His Mystery.

kahi kabeer bhisat tay chookaa dojak si-o man maani-aa. ;

Says Kabeer, you have missed out on paradise; your mind is set on hell. ;

Again put into context this is a comment on the Muslim sacrifice ritual where either a goat or a chicken is kept in the confines of the home and then ritually slaughtered as obeisance to Abraham. Kabeer is mocking the futility of this ritual and saying, that why are you doing this sacrifice just to emulate God’s asking of Abraham to kill his only son? It is a futile gesture that will not sway God. Abraham was sacrificing his son to God, however all the sacrifice in this instance has achieved is destruction of the outer shell of the chicken. The soul won’t travel to God, but merely to another form. One can only understand this if one has a basic grasp of history. In this instance the person who tried to use this tukh as an anti-meat quotation was unaware of the Koranic context and had an extremely poor knowledge of Semitic history.

4. Bhagat Kabir says, that the best food is eating kichree (daal/lentils) where nectar sweet is the salt. You eat hunted meat, but which animal is willing to have their head cut ? (SGGS p1374)

Let us add this to the correct context:

oraa gar paanee bha-i-aa jaa-ay mili-o dhal kool.;

The hail-stone has melted into water, and flowed into the ocean. ;

kabeeraa Dhoor sakayl kai puree-aa baaNDhee dayh.

Kabeer, the body is a pile of dust, collected and packed together.

divas chaar ko paykhnaa ant khayh kee khayh.;

It is a show which lasts for only a few days, and then dust returns to dust. ;

kabeer sooraj chaaNd kai udai bha-ee sabh dayh.

Kabeer, bodies are like the rising and setting of the sun and the moon.

gur gobind kay bin milay palat bha-ee sabh khayh.;

Without meeting the Guru, the Lord of the Universe, they are all reduced to dust again. ;

jah anbha-o tah bhai nahee jah bha-o tah har naahi.

Where the Fearless Lord is, there is no fear; where there is fear, the Lord is not there.

kahi-o kabeer bichaar kai sant sunhu man maahi. ;

Kabeer speaks after careful consideration; hear this, O Saints, in your minds. ;

kabeer jinahu kichhoo jaani-aa nahee tin sukh need bihaa-ay.

Kabeer, those who do not know anything, pass their lives in peaceful sleep.

hamhu jo boojhaa boojhnaa pooree paree balaa-ay. ;

But I have understood the riddle; I am faced with all sorts of troubles. ;

laagee chot maramm kee rahi-o kabeeraa tha-ur. ;

Struck by the Mystery of God, Kabeer remains silent. ;

kabeer chot suhaylee sayl kee laagat lay-ay usaas.

Kabeer, the stroke of a lance is easy to bear; it takes away the breath.

chot sahaarai sabad kee taas guroo mai daas. ;

But one who endures the stroke of the Word of the Shabad is the Guru, and I am his slave. ;

kabeer mulaaN munaaray ki-aa chadheh saaN-ee na bahraa ho-ay.

Kabeer: O Mullah, why do you climb to the top of the minaret? The Lord is not hard of hearing.

jaa kaaran tooN baaNg deh dil hee bheetar jo-ay. ;

Look within your own heart for the One, for whose sake you shout your prayers. ;

saykh sabooree baahraa ki-aa haj kaabay jaa-ay.

Why does the Shaykh bother to go on pilgrimage to Mecca, if he is not content with himself?

kabeer jaa kee dil saabat nahee taa ka-o kahaaN khudaa-ay. ;

Kabeer, one whose heart is not healthy and whole - how can he attain his Lord? ;

kabeer alah kee kar bandagee jih simrat dukh jaa-ay.

Kabeer, worship the Lord Allah; meditating in remembrance on Him, troubles and pains depart.

dil meh saaN-ee pargatai bujhai balantee naaN-ay. ;

The Lord shall be revealed within your own heart, and the burning fire within shall be extinguished by His Name. ;

kabeer joree kee-ay julam hai kahtaa naa-o halaal.

Kabeer, to use force is tyranny, even if you call it legal.

daftar laykhaa maaNgee-ai tab ho-igo ka-un havaal. ;

When your account is called for in the Court of the Lord, what will your condition be then? ;

kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.

Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.

hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un. ;

Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread?;

kabeer gur laagaa tab jaanee-ai mitai moh tan taap.

Kabeer, one is known to have been touched by the Guru, only when his emotional attachment and physical illnesses are eradicated.

harakh sog daajhai nahee tab har aapeh aap. ;

He is not burned by pleasure or pain, and so he becomes the Lord Himself. ;

kabeer raam kahan meh bhayd hai taa meh ayk bichaar.

Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider.

so-ee raam sabhai kaheh so-ee ka-utakhaar.;

Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath and the Wondrous Lord. ;

kabeer raamai raam kaho kahibay maahi bibayk.

Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction.

ayk anaykeh mil ga-i-aa ayk samaanaa ayk. ;

One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere, while the other is contained only in himself. ;

kabeer jaa ghar saaDh na sayvee-ah har kee sayvaa naahi.

Kabeer, those houses in which neither the Holy nor the Lord are served –

tay ghar marhat saarkhay bhoot baseh tin maahi. ;

those houses are like cremation grounds; demons dwell within them. ;

kabeer goongaa hoo-aa baavraa bahraa hoo-aa kaan.

Kabeer, I have become mute, insane and deaf.

paavhu tay pingul bha-i-aa maari-aa satgur baan. ;

I am crippled - the True Guru has pierced me with His Arrow.;

kabeer satgur soormay baahi-aa baan jo ayk.

Kabeer, the True Guru, the Spiritual Warrior, has shot me with His Arrow.

laagat hee bhu-ay gir pari-aa paraa karayjay chhayk. ;

As soon as it struck me, I fell to the ground, with a hole in my heart. ;

kabeer nirmal boond akaas kee par ga-ee bhoom bikaar.

Kabeer, the pure drop of water falls from the sky, onto the dirty ground.

At one level this is a mistranslation and at another misrepresentation of the context within which this is written:

kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.

Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.

hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un. ;

Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread? ;

In the above Gurmukhi, there is no mention of meat whatsoever. The person who has tried to translate this has added his/her own spin .What this is actually saying is that to the follower of the Guru or one who has been touched by God a simple dish of Kheechree (lentils and rice), flavoured with salt is enough. To have something more exotic to eat you would not cut your own throat (the western equivalent would be to cut your own nose off to spite your face). In no way is this tukh anything to do with meat eating and the person who has misrepresented and mistranslated it should be held to account for his/her actions.

5.In this dark age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; They eat rotting dead bodies for food. (SGGS p1242)

Again, let us put this into context:

salok mehlaa 1.

Shalok, First Mehl:

kal ho-ee kutay muhee khaaj ho-aa murdaar.

In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; they eat rotting carcasses for food.

koorh bol bol bha-ukanaa chookaa Dharam beechaar.

They bark and speak, telling only lies; all thought of righteousness has left them.

jin jeevandi-aa pat nahee mu-i-aa mandee so-ay.

Those who have no honor while alive, will have an evil reputation after they die.

likhi-aa hovai naankaa kartaa karay so ho-ay. ;

Whatever is predestined, happens, O Nanak; whatever the Creator does, comes to pass. ;

At first glance one notices that this paragraph is clearly a metaphor for people who behave like dogs. The dog is a scavenger, hunts in packs, fights within its pack, eats practically anything it can find etc etc. This entire Ang talks about people greed and those that lack honour when they are alive.

The second point to note is the mistranslation. Murdaar is not the word for meat. Murdaar is a reference to people who are dead. In other words people are acting so much like dogs that when people have died they gather round to get as much as they can. A good analogy would be inheritance, where is some instances people try and contest them or try and grab for themselves as much as they can. In India, it has not been unusual to murder siblings of inheritance disputes. In fact the word Murder in the English language has come from the word Murdaar.

6. Falsehood is my dagger and to eat by defrauding is meat.

(Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Raaj p24

Let us again see this in context:

sireeraag mehlaa 1 ghar 4.

Siree Raag, First Mehl, Fourth House:

ayk su-aan du-ay su-aanee naal.

The dogs of greed are with me.

bhalkay bha-ukahi sadaa ba-i-aal.

In the early morning, they continually bark at the wind.

koorh chhuraa muthaa murdaar.

Falsehood is my dagger; through deception, I eat the carcasses of the dead.

Dhaanak roop rahaa kartaar. ;

I live as a wild hunter, O Creator! ;

mai pat kee pand na karnee kee kaar.

I have not followed good advice, nor have I done good deeds.

ha-o bigrhai roop rahaa bikraal.

I am deformed and horribly disfigured.

tayraa ayk naam taaray sansaar.

Your Name alone, Lord, saves the world.

mai ayhaa aas ayho aaDhaar. ; rahaa-o.

This is my hope; this is my support. ;Pause;

mukh nindaa aakhaa din raat.

With my mouth I speak slander, day and night.

par ghar johee neech sanaat.

I spy on the houses of others-I am such a wretched low-life!

kaam kroDh tan vaseh chandaal.

Unfulfilled sexual desire and unresolved anger dwell in my body, like the outcasts who cremate the dead.

Dhaanak roop rahaa kartaar.;

I live as a wild hunter, O Creator! ;

faahee surat malookee vays.

I make plans to trap others, although I appear gentle.

ha-o thagvaarhaa thagee days.

I am a robber-I rob the world.

kharaa si-aanaa bahutaa bhaar.

I am very clever-I carry loads of sin.

Dhaanak roop rahaa kartaar. ;

I live as a wild hunter, O Creator! ;

mai keetaa na jaataa haraamkhor.

I have not appreciated what You have done for me, Lord; I take from others and exploit them.

ha-o ki-aa muhu daysaa dusat chor.

What face shall I show You, Lord? I am a sneak and a thief.

naanak neech kahai beechaar.

Nanak describes the state of the lowly.

Dhaanak roop rahaa kartaar. ;

I live as a wild hunter, O Creator! ;

Again this is similar to the above translated Ang. The Guru is clearly making an analogy between people who are acting like dogs. He is even saying that they are barking like dogs.

koorh chhuraa muthaa murdaar.

Falsehood is my dagger; through deception, I eat the carcasses of the dead.

Again Mudaar does not mean meat at all. Mudaar refers to dead people, and how people are literally fighting over one another to get what they think is theirs. They are so consumed with greed and selfishness that they care not for one another, clearly nothing to do with meat eating.

7. Avarice is a dog, falsehood the sweeper and cheating the eating of meat. (Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Raag p15)

Let us put this last tukh in context with its correct translation:

sireeraag mehlaa 1.

Siree Raag, First Mehl:

lab kutaa koorh choohrhaa thag khaaDhaa murdaar.

Greed is a dog; falsehood is a filthy street-sweeper. Cheating is eating a rotting carcass.

par nindaa par mal mukh suDhee agan kroDh chandaal.

Slandering others is putting the filth of others into your own mouth. The fire of anger is the outcaste who burns dead bodies at the crematorium.

ras kas aap salaahnaa ay karam mayray kartaar. ;

I am caught in these tastes and flavors, and in self-conceited praise. These are my actions, O my Creator! ;

baabaa bolee-ai pat ho-ay.

O Baba, speak only that which will bring you honor.

ootam say dar ootam kahee-ahi neech karam bahi ro-ay.; rahaa-o.

They alone are good, who are judged good at the Lord's Door. Those with bad karma can only sit and weep. ;Pause;

ras su-inaa ras rupaa kaaman ras parmal kee vaas.

The pleasures of gold and silver, the pleasures of women, the pleasure of the fragrance of sandalwood,

ras ghorhay ras sayjaa mandar ras meethaa ras maas.

the pleasure of horses, the pleasure of a soft bed in a palace, the pleasure of sweet treats and the pleasure of hearty meals –

aytay ras sareer kay kai ghat naam nivaas. ;

these pleasures of the human body are so numerous; how can the Naam, the Name of the Lord, find its dwelling in the heart? ;

jit boli-ai pat paa-ee-ai so boli-aa parvaan.

Those words are acceptable, which, when spoken, bring honor.

fikaa bol viguchnaa sun moorakh man ajaan.

Harsh words bring only grief. Listen, O foolish and ignorant mind!

jo tis bhaaveh say bhalay hor ke kahan vakhaan.;

Those who are pleasing to Him are good. What else is there to be said? ;

tin mat tin pat tin Dhan palai jin hirdai rahi-aa samaa-ay.

Wisdom, honor and wealth are in the laps of those whose hearts remain permeated with the Lord.

tin kaa ki-aa salaahnaa avar su-aali-o kaa-ay.

What praise can be offered to them? What other adornments can be bestowed upon them?

naanak nadree baahray raacheh daan na naa-ay. ;

O Nanak, those who lack the Lord's Glance of Grace cherish neither charity nor the Lord's Name. ;

Again clearly a mistranslation and mischief making on the part of someone who wishes to convey a certain message.

lab kutaa koorh choohrhaa thag khaaDhaa murdaar.

Greed is a dog; falsehood is a filthy street-sweeper. Cheating is eating a rotting carcass.

Again Murdaar is not Meat but is dead people. The entire Ang is talking about people who fall prey to the 5 thieves, Kaam, Krodh, Moh, Lobh and Hankaar.

After that, read this:

MOTIVATIONS BEHIND MISTRANSLATION AND MISREPRESENTATION

There are several reasons behind why these mistranslations and misrepresentations have occurred:

The publishers have a lack of education and do not understand the meaning of words in Gurmukhi and the correct translation into English.

In their eagerness to promote their own brand of Sikhism (Sant, Jatha etc) they have deliberately allowed mistranslation and mistranslation.

Genuine abhorrence of killing animals can be a motivation too (eg those people that believe in Animal Rights), however Sikhism should not be used as a tool to promote such agendas.

Poor knowledge of history and the context in which the Guru’s and Bhaghats wrotes these Angs is a factor too. This can lead to a misrepresentation.

In conclusion one can only say that it is very important that Sikh institution promote a clear and concise programme where only those with a certain amount of knowledge in Sikh History and the Sikh Language, should be officially sanctioned as being translators for the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

[manjot]

^^^^^

That's a lot to read. :D

[SSM]

everything is open to interpretation BOTH WAYS.

I don't think we are allowed to question the Panj, is that not disrespectful?

[Lionchild]

everything is open to interpretation BOTH WAYS.

I don't think we are allowed to question the Panj, is that not disrespectful?

Well if they told you not to kill a black cow, or bow down to chairs, woudl you follow it anyways even if it's not in sikhi. And just do it out of respect? no.

the problem with the sikh community is that it is so easy to label a new ritual with "respecting the guru" it's higher people that do this that twist sikhi, and the average sikhi just accepts it because they are sants or something. Well people need to get out of that way and just follow directly from the guru.

that fact that you mention this, is the comman feeling - must not question anything and accept as is.

[natsilahk]

Singhstah:

you talk as if what your saying is fact, what proof have you that says guroo sahib didnt hunt just to give mukti?

And can you give me proof to the contrary?

No.

Because, if you could, we wouldn't be having this debate.

and atlease have some resepect for Guroo sahib atleast, not Nanak, Guroo Nanak Sahib Ji

"Respect for Guru Sahib" I have. It's respect for rumours and gossip that I don't have.

AK47 JATHA LION:

all living things have souls. a sikh cannot harm another soul. a sikh cannot eat meat. it is prohibited. learn the basics.

Plants are "living things".

More "living" than an egg, anyway :D

Singhstah:

so simple hena, yet you still get people tryin gto argue meat is ok, anyone with half a brain cell would understand its not

Actually, "anyone with half a brain cell would understand" that plants are actually "living things".

And it's funny you should mention "half a brain cell" since an egg has precisely that amount of genetic material, hence rendering it more 'dead' than a plant.

akjforever:

I admit I am an <banned word filter activated> with no knowledge about anything. I never claimed to be a scholar on this topic. You are however superior with your intellect. Sikhism is about living and breathing Gurbani, not just have discussions about it.

Perhaps. But that's what this board is about. That's why you're here.

All the meat eaters on the board please do me a favor and if youre gonna eat the filth, eat it, but don't use Sikhism as the reason for eating it.

I've never had to "use Sikkhism as the reason for" anything.

I use my God-given conscience for all life's reasoning, and look to texts whose wisdom I believe in for guidance when I need it.

For example, if Sikkhism said "kill human beings", I wouldn't do it just because 'Sikkhi says so', or some equally weak-minded comment.

If you just stated that you feel that morally it is ok to it and you see no problem with it then that is fine BUT don't say you eat it because Sikhi says it's ok.

I eat it because it tastes good. I don't eat it often, but a spicy lamb or chicken kebab with spicey sauce and pickle is enough to make even the most seasoned vegetarian's mouth water (my vegetarian sister has admitted it on many occasions).

It's natural. As long as we act responsibly and don't drive animals to extinction, it's okay.

And SHOW RESPECT TO GURU SAHIB!!! It's not "Nanak", how disgracefull!!

Oh, I'm afraid it is "Nänak". I use Guru sometimes, and sometimes I don't. But "Nänak" was his name.

Sorry if that's offended you, but it's my choice how I wish to refer to him. And it's not like I'm calling him by something slanderous. I'm calling him by his birth name.

P.S. - You talk to me of respect. But I have seen the most 'devout' gursikkhs completely disrespect the Guru's teachings...and yet they refer to him as Guru. That kind of superficial respect has never been my primary concern.

Gupt Lion:

were in kalyug so people are lost the world is on its head in satyug people were vegetarians and lived by truth now where in kalyug so obviously people gonna do the opposite

like above post said if u gna eat it, eat it but dont say because sikhi says its ok

does any 1 no any chardikala gursikhs who are meat eaters?

i've personaly never heard of one?

has their been a great sikh of the past that have been meat eaters?

Yes, that's it. We must be lost. It's us. The common sense-users. Not the ones who shit bricks over whether or not their underpants are elasticated.

Thank you, oh Enlightened Ones.

FINALLY, someone who uses their BRAIN.

Max, I congratulate you. You are the man.

[Guest PRITAM SINGH KHALSA]

"""""""""""""""If you just stated that you feel that morally it is ok to it and you see no problem with it then that is fine BUT don't say you eat it because Sikhi says it's ok.

I eat it because it tastes good. I don't eat it often, but a spicy lamb or chicken kebab with spicey sauce and pickle is enough to make even the most seasoned vegetarian's mouth water (my vegetarian sister has admitted it on many occasions).

It's natural. As long as we act responsibly and don't drive animals to extinction, it's okay."""""""""""""""

Your sister could have her mouth water but not me. I can suppress my hunger if I saw food I couldnt eat. I do it all the time. I dont think your sister is a representive for the seasoned vegetarians. I was a vegetarian years before I became a Sikh.

You crave meat as a lion craves the meat of the grazing impalla on the plains.

I think of my food as a cow standing in the grass and chewing their cud, that it is just food to eat, nothing special but a life sustaining element. Meat doesnt give you exray vision or make you live longer or stand taller etc. When it is just food to you then your tongue becomes ungreedy but then you have people wanting steak and not chicken and thats what makes the mouth greedy. You dont think your greedy until shown by someone else even though your tongue was greedy the whole time.

[Balwinder Singh]

everything is open to interpretation BOTH WAYS.

I don't think we are allowed to question the Panj, is that not disrespectful?

Asking questions is not disrespectful at all. I think in a spirtual journey we need to ask questions whenever we feel like. Do not stop urself....ask questions...thats really important.

Singhstah:

you talk as if what your saying is fact, what proof have you that says guroo sahib didnt hunt just to give mukti?

And can you give me proof to the contrary?

No.

Because, if you could, we wouldn't be having this debate.

and atlease have some resepect for Guroo sahib atleast, not Nanak, Guroo Nanak Sahib Ji

"Respect for Guru Sahib" I have. It's respect for rumours and gossip that I don't have.

AK47 JATHA LION:

all living things have souls. a sikh cannot harm another soul. a sikh cannot eat meat. it is prohibited. learn the basics.

Plants are "living things".

More "living" than an egg, anyway :D

Singhstah:

so simple hena, yet you still get people tryin gto argue meat is ok, anyone with half a brain cell would understand its not

Actually, "anyone with half a brain cell would understand" that plants are actually "living things".

And it's funny you should mention "half a brain cell" since an egg has precisely that amount of genetic material, hence rendering it more 'dead' than a plant.

akjforever:

I admit I am an <banned word filter activated> with no knowledge about anything. I never claimed to be a scholar on this topic. You are however superior with your intellect. Sikhism is about living and breathing Gurbani, not just have discussions about it.

Perhaps. But that's what this board is about. That's why you're here.

All the meat eaters on the board please do me a favor and if youre gonna eat the filth, eat it, but don't use Sikhism as the reason for eating it.

I've never had to "use Sikkhism as the reason for" anything.

I use my God-given conscience for all life's reasoning, and look to texts whose wisdom I believe in for guidance when I need it.

For example, if Sikkhism said "kill human beings", I wouldn't do it just because 'Sikkhi says so', or some equally weak-minded comment.

If you just stated that you feel that morally it is ok to it and you see no problem with it then that is fine BUT don't say you eat it because Sikhi says it's ok.

I eat it because it tastes good. I don't eat it often, but a spicy lamb or chicken kebab with spicey sauce and pickle is enough to make even the most seasoned vegetarian's mouth water (my vegetarian sister has admitted it on many occasions).

It's natural. As long as we act responsibly and don't drive animals to extinction, it's okay.

And SHOW RESPECT TO GURU SAHIB!!! It's not "Nanak", how disgracefull!!

Oh, I'm afraid it is "Nänak". I use Guru sometimes, and sometimes I don't. But "Nänak" was his name.

Sorry if that's offended you, but it's my choice how I wish to refer to him. And it's not like I'm calling him by something slanderous. I'm calling him by his birth name.

P.S. - You talk to me of respect. But I have seen the most 'devout' gursikkhs completely disrespect the Guru's teachings...and yet they refer to him as Guru. That kind of superficial respect has never been my primary concern.

Gupt Lion:

were in kalyug so people are lost the world is on its head in satyug people were vegetarians and lived by truth now where in kalyug so obviously people gonna do the opposite

like above post said if u gna eat it, eat it but dont say because sikhi says its ok

does any 1 no any chardikala gursikhs who are meat eaters?

i've personaly never heard of one?

has their been a great sikh of the past that have been meat eaters?

Yes, that's it. We must be lost. It's us. The common sense-users. Not the ones who shit bricks over whether or not their underpants are elasticated.

Thank you, oh Enlightened Ones.

FINALLY, someone who uses their BRAIN.

Max, I congratulate you. You are the man.

Well..... I like the way Max answers the quetions.

Eating or not eating meat argument will stay here forever( I think). Guru ji instructed us Not to get into this debate EVER....but we still want the answer to be YES or NO. But fortunately or unfortunately God doesn't behave like YES or NO. And I am very pleased that Guru's Sikhi also teached us that.

[randip singh]

"""""""""""""""If you just stated that you feel that morally it is ok to it and you see no problem with it then that is fine BUT don't say you eat it because Sikhi says it's ok.

I eat it because it tastes good. I don't eat it often, but a spicy lamb or chicken kebab with spicey sauce and pickle is enough to make even the most seasoned vegetarian's mouth water (my vegetarian sister has admitted it on many occasions).

It's natural. As long as we act responsibly and don't drive animals to extinction, it's okay."""""""""""""""

Your sister could have her mouth water but not me. I can suppress my hunger if I saw food I couldnt eat. I do it all the time. I dont think your sister is a representive for the seasoned vegetarians. I was a vegetarian years before I became a Sikh.

You crave meat as a lion craves the meat of the grazing impalla on the plains.

I think of my food as a cow standing in the grass and chewing their cud, that it is just food to eat, nothing special but a life sustaining element. Meat doesnt give you exray vision or make you live longer or stand taller etc. When it is just food to you then your tongue becomes ungreedy but then you have people wanting steak and not chicken and thats what makes the mouth greedy. You dont think your greedy until shown by someone else even though your tongue was greedy the whole time.

MEAT EATERS, ONLY EAT FOR TASTE OR DO VEGETARIANS AS WELL?

The most absurd argument that has been come across is that meat eaters only eat for taste, and too satisfy their taste buds. It is a selfish desire in other words, based on Greed and Egotism. The basis of this argument falls down with the fact that Vegetarian dishes (particularly on the Indian Subcontinent), are the most varied and most tasty of all dishes. To say that a vegetarian hates every mouthful of eating an Aubergine and Potatoes Curry and a meat eater loves every mouthful of Liver is indeed the weakest of all arguments. In fact page 61 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji states:

jit tan naam na bhaav-ee <admin-profanity filter activated> tan ha-umai vaad.

That body which does not appreciate the Naam-that body is infested with egotism and conflict.

gur bin gi-aan na paa-ee-ai bikhi-aa doojaa saad.

Without the Guru, spiritual wisdom is not obtained; other tastes are poison.

bin gun kaam na aavee maa-i-aa feekaa saad. ;

Without virtue, nothing is of any use. The taste of Maya is bland and insipid. ;

aasaa andar jammi-aa aasaa ras kas khaa-ay.

Through desire, people are cast into the womb and reborn. Through desire, they taste the sweet and sour flavors.