Nature of Vaheguru

[Sarbloh Soulja]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

can u paste here what you wrote in the mail?please khalsa soulja

[>Bikramjit Singh<]

WJKK WJKF

Khalsa Souljah

Bro, I had a discussion with this guy a few days ago on yahoo messenger and he is pretty amateur. Like most Muslims they like to garble endlessly about 'knowledge' and 'rationality' but in the end all they have as proof of the truth of their religion is the story of a man 1400 years ago who thought he was visited by an Angel and some horse took him to heaven. He started off the debate with the usual arrogance of a fanatic who thinks he has all the answers. After the intros he started off with 'let's cut to the chase' and half an hour later he couldn't leave fast enough.

His technique is to try and latch on to one thing in Sikhi in which he thinks he can create a doubt about and then keep on hammering at it. He's good at sprouting the usual 'thousands are converting to Islam every day' drivel but when you question any of his views further he will try and hit you with some koran quote as if that provides the definative answer!. I enjoyed myself questioning his belief that Allah is 'above heaven'. Here's a brief summary of the debate as I remember it.

Me: Is heaven a physical place ?

Muslim : Sure is

Me: Is Allah in Heaven

Muslim: No. He's 'above Heaven' *provides quote from Koran which I cannot remember*

Me: Is 'Above Heaven' a place. ie physical

Muslim: No, it's not physical, it is spiritual, another plane of existence

Me: So how can the location of something that is not physical as 'above Heaven ' is, be referenced by something that is physical ie Heaven ?.

*long gap*

Muslim: You did not answer my quest

ion about the Gurus

He also has a 'soundbite' which is his opinion as to why he cannot think about Sikhi as a true religion. I think it goes like this

When I look at Sikhism I see the belief in reincarnation, nirvana and I think of it as Hinduism and I could never consider becoming a Hindu

My reply was

When I look at Islam, I see Judaism, a liberal sprinking of Christianity and later Jewish heresies and topped off with the delusions of one man.

I think the debate ended with the usual blind faith argument of 'Allah knows best'

The problem is that Muslims are not used to having to answer questions logically about their religion. They think that they can question every minute detail of someones else's religion but that when we ask them a question about Islam then we should accept their answer 'Koran says so' or 'Allah knows best' !.

There are two ways to counter this guy.

1. Take support and help from people that know about their techniques. Apparently this guy is now refusing to debate with me or ignoring me. The only way their technique can work is if the person who is debating with them has no support from the Sangat. The guy realises this and that's why he doesn't wish to debate further. His email to Sarbloh Kaur saying that he did not wish to have a debate and was just showing her what Islam has to offer shows that he cannot handle logical questioning of his views. After my debate with him he sent Sarbloh Kaur a long cut and paste article off the net 'proving' that Allah is in a place 'above Heaven'. Obviously I had created some doubt in him and he must have spent some time searching for an answer to clear his doubt!. Nice to know that one Muslim got a taste of his own medicine!.

2. Cut off all contact. Consider him like a dog barking in the night, annoying but harmless.

GurFateh

Bikramjit

[bijli kaur]

whoa! bikramjit that sadeyah jeyah kebab is saying sikhism is like hinduism?????

islam is more like hinduism than sikhi , eg, pilgrimages, sacred bathings ( wuzu), deeds for brownie points to heaven, charity, fasting, ritual slaughter, idol worship (kabba n sang e aswad), heirarchy of racial superiority ie mohammeds claim that arabs are more pure than others and claims that martyrs go to heavens with beautiful women.

they are trying to create this hindu sikh link and tar us with the same brush use some verses from quran about pagans to make us feel inferior.

[V]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

why? Is it because Islaam is making sense to you but you don't want to accept it because of the consequences, as a result you start comparing Islaam with the Moghuls

ISLAM IS MKAING SENSE

ISLAM MAKING SENSE

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

[jagjit_waheguru]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Pyare jio, below is a mail I wrote a year about this. Please check debate below, it has many of the answers that you are searching for. For other questions, let me know there is a website, which answers everything islam has to offer.

"Pyare jio, recently I encountered a bibi who was heavily influenced by islam. She wanted to have a debate with me. She seemed quite confident she was going to convince me about the superiority of Islam. I accepted. The angle she used was all about life after death.

A few weeks later I was talking to another local Gursikh about this. He said this was so strange. He said in the office he worked, he too was approached, and also asked about life after death. He said not only this, but his brother who studies in a birmingham university was also asked the same questions. So was his sister, who is a teenager in a leeds school. We thought this cannot be a coincidnce that in the matter a two weeks four practicing sikhs are approached by muslims with exactly the same questions. These are just the people we know, how many more?

Wondering about this, we came to the conclusion, that there must be some kind of organised approach to this. Quite possibly an egroup, which regularly lists questions which can be asked to all non-muslims, to question their faith, and then interest them in islam.

Two weeks ago, I met another sikh who works as a teacher in a school. He said he has alot of muslim kids in his class. He said one of them even came up to him, put his arm around him, and said, "give me half an hour, and I will convince you islam is the only way." He said he w

as amazed at the level of confidence in these kids that they could say something like that to their teacher.

Cont`d from last mail.. Below is the debate we had about this subject, initiated by the bibi.

Bibi: Bhaji, You sikhs believe in reincarnation. This is a completely absurd theory. It does not make sense. How can a human then become a pig?

Das: Bhen ji, both sikhs and hindus believe in re-incarnation, but our belief is different in some areas, but the whole concept of re-incarnation is not about what a person becomes in their next life, but about escaping the cycle of life and death and becoming mukht.

Bibi : But how do you become a pig from a human?

Das: The body is just a vessel, only the soul is what is of value. This soul can be born in any vessel.

Bibi: I do not accept this, I think it is absurd.

Das: Bhen ji, that is your choice. A person after death is judged according to their thoughts & actions. It is according to this judgement, that they are honoured or dishonoured in the next life. But even this is not so important. The important thing is to be able to break the cycle in life and death, while alive. To be able to attain a spiritual plain and obtain mukhti. Then it does not matter what you will be in the next life, for you are free and merged with God. That is the key to re-incarnation, that one breaks free from this cycle.

Bibi: Fine, but is sikhi the way? Judgement day will come upon us all.

Das: Yes it will, and it happens everyday. Everyday we are judged, and every action we do has a re-action. But in the end to Judgement day will come, we call it the Dharam Raj, you call it different.

Bibi: No, judgement day will come to everyone on this earth. The day will be beckoning, when Allah judges all, and the muslims will rise.

Das: You mean the muslims will rise, ie. all the ones buried in coffins will rise again and you will have an army of zombies fighting against non-muslims. You find re-incarnation absurd, but you find this acceptable?

Bibi:

Islam is the truth, it is the only way. All those who are non-muslims will become muslims.

Das: Judgement day as a concept is complete nonsense. It does not make sense.

Bibi: How can you say that?

Das: Bhen ji, relax and listen. Firstly you believe in a day. Why? God, Allah, Waheguru, does not believe in day and night, God is timeless. Day and night is a concept of man, and the result of the earth circling the sun. Why would God wait for a day to judge everyone. God is beyond that. It is a continuous process as in sikhi has with the Dharam raj. Do you believe God is not capable of judging people continuously. Why wait for a day? Them muslims who died centuries ago are then unlucky for they have had to stay in coffins all this time, decomposing, waiting for this day to come when they can be judged. Does this not seem an ineffective way, surely continuous judgement via dhram raj is more sensible, and God`s way is Truth. I see more truth in continuous judgement.

Bibi: yes, but your way, turns a human into a pig?

Das: Bhen ji, You are stuck on one silly point. God gives his beloved souls many many chances, it is they who choose whether to take this chance or not. If they do not then they come back in some form or another. Just because muslims do not like pigs, does not mean they are bad. A pig is part of Allah`s creation aswell, just like everything else. A person who is a friend of God, is also a friend on his creation. That person learns to love and appreciate everything God has created.

Bibi: No, in islam there is only one chance, there is only one way, and you are judged according to it.

Das: How can this be the way of God? Even a mother with a child. The child as it grows up makes thousands of mistakes, the mother sometimes gets frustrated, but never stops loving the child. The mother always forgives and has that compassionate nature. And we are talking of God. It is God who put that compassionate nature into the mother. How can we say God is not compasionate at all? The human will make

thousands of mistakes in their life, no matter how holy they are, but God will always love them, help them, and be compassionate towards them. he gives them thousands of chances.

Bibi: Yes, true a mother is compassonate and so must be God. l have to read deeper, maybe in islam you do get another chance.

Das: Then if you do get another chance, then that chance has a form. Whether or not you accept it, then that is a form of re-incarnation, and non-acceptance of Judgement day theory.

(Bibi goes quiet, revelation suddenly dawns upon her)

Bibi: No, No, I will have to get back to you ... We will talk about this again..

Bibi left.

waheguru ji ke khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

[chamkila]

Can I ask where do you guys find these people from?

[jagjit_waheguru]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

pyare jio, Bradford!

Enough said.

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

[chamkila]

Bradford = mini Pakistan

[>Bikramjit Singh<]

Can I ask where do you guys find these people from?

At Idiots R Us

[Guest mehtab]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

after reading jagit_waheguru's post, all i have to say is

BOLAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

NIHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLL

S A T S R I A K A A L!!!!!