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You earlier said,

Your definition of naam is 1 word. My naam is all of Gurbani. What is better? One word of Gurbani?

and then you also said,

Wahe (Great) Guru (Guru) which is Gurbani is the Gurmantar.

The Sikh Rehit Maryada clearly says that naam is the word "Vahiguru" . You are saying that Gurbani as a whole is naam.

Now you are saying,

I don't questions Gurmantar. This dude made false allegations on me so I just budlaa lia by saying Randy Singh to Bhai Randhir Singh.

Are you know admitting you were wrong?

As for taking "budlaa", you do me no harm by insulting Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh. Like I said, you spit at the moon and you know what will result.

Your still haven't refuted the article I posted about Sheikh Farid and said what part you disagree with.

you did mention

And if he realized the truth when he met Guru Nanak, then why did he use Farid?

This is not a sensible point. All the Bhatts became Sikhs after meeting Guru Sahib but still used their names. What else would Bhagat Farid jee have used in his bani if not his name?

The dates you provided for the Bhagats are wrong.

The real facts about the Bhagats are as follows:

Sri Bharadwaj says based on facts, ancient Marathi Granths such as Bhaghat Rasaimat Sindhu, Naamdev Jeevan Charitar, says Guru Nanak Mahaprabhu bhagat Nanak Swami and Naam Dev met at Kumar Teerath. That is why Bharadwaj says Bhagat Naamdev’s time period could not have been before Guru Nanak Jee. This opinion of Bharadwaj is based on research on old granths Naam Dev Charitar. In fact Bharadwaj has even written a book Gyanashwar v Gyan Dev in which he sites many sources and comes to the conclusion that Naamdev and Guru Nanak were contemporaries.

The Bhagat were honoured with the fact that they were contemporaries of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Jee. They were influenced by Gurmati Shabadavli, Gurmat principals, Gurmat words, and even by the Gurmantar Satnaam. Some of the Bhagats had met Sri Guru Guru Nanak Dev Jee at Ayodhya.

I encourage you to please read Giani Gurdit Singh’s Ithihas, Sri Guru Granth Sahib (Bhagat Bani Bhag) second edition."

Janamsakhis do mention the Bhagats meeting Guru Nanak Dev Jee. Ramanand and the Bhagats time period is actually between 1500-1600 Bikrami. This is the time when Guru Nanak Dev Jee was here in bodily form i.e. 1526-1596-97 Bikrami.

Bhagat Ravidas Jee was a contemporary of Guru Nanak Dev Jee. Mira Bhai who lived during the reign of Mughal Emperor Akbar was a disciple of Bhagat Ravidas Jee. This in itself proves that Bhagat Ravidas Jee was a contemporary of Guru Nanak Dev Jee. Mira Bai’s time period was at the earliest 1555 BC, while some say she was born even later than 1555 BC.

Bhagat Kabir Jee was also a contemporary of Guru Nanak Dev Jee. There meeting are mentioned in Granths of the Kabir Panthis. This is confirmed by the writings of the first Kabir Panthi Dharam Daas. Puraatan Granths ‘Kabir Mansoor’ mention meetings of Guru Nanak Dev Jee and Bhagat Kabir Jee several times.

Bhagat Pipa Jee was also a contemporary of Guru Nanak Dev Jee. Bhagat Pipa Jee like most of the Bhagats was in the Ramanandi Shakaa. Bhagat Pipa Jee’s nephew Anant Das Jee’s commentaries (which were written in 1645 BC) mention an important meeting between Guru Nanak Dev Jee and Bhagat Pipa Jee.

Besides these, Meherwaans Janamsakhi mentions many of the Bhagats meeting Guru Nanak Dev Jee at Ayodhya. Infact there was even a Gurdwara built in the memory of this meeting hundreds of years ago which still exists today. The Bhagat who were present in this meeting were Nama (Naamdev), Jai Dev, Trilochan, Ravidas, Sadhana, Dhana, Banee.

Twareek Guru Khalsa (pg 80) also says Namdev, Ravidas, Trilochan, Parsaa & Haso Rai, Dharam Daas (both followers of Kabir Ji), Nitya Nand (was a follower of Ramanand) all met Guru Jee.

A Granth belonging to Ravidas Panthis mentions an interesting story in page 435â€

Mardhana was with Guru Nanak Jee when visiting Banaras (Kaashi). The Brahmans and Khatris of Kaashi said to Guru Nanak Jee You have visited that low caste Chamar Ravidas, when we (the high caste) are not even suppose to get touched by their mere shadow. Hearing this, Guru Nanak said to them:

NEECHA UNDAR NEECH JAAT, NEECHI HU AT NEECH||

JITHAY TIN KAY SANG SAAT, VADIYA SIO KIA REES||

JITHAY JEECH SAMALIAN, THITHAY NADIR TERI BAKSHISH|| (siri raag M, 1 -15)

All this proves that the Bhagats whose Bani is in Guru Granth Sahib Jee were not only contemporaries of Guru Nanak Dev Jee, but had met Guru Nanak Dev Jee personally.

Also, I would like to point out to you that the Gurdwara I mentioned at Ayodhya was not constructed because Guru Nanak Dev Jee merely visited that area, but was constructed in the memory of the historic meeting that took place between the Bhagats and Guru Nanak Dev Jee. Similarly, Panja Sahib was not constructed because Guru Nanak Dev Jee merely visited that area, but because of the event that took place there i.e. the story of Guru Nanak Dev Jee stopping a huge bolder with this hand.

In a Puraatan Granth “Guru Ravidas” written by Prithi Azaad mentions on PG 42 another meeting between Guru Nanak Dev Jee and Bhagat Ravidas Jee, this meeting took place at 1555 according to the Granth. So now, I have provided three separate puraatan sources other than Twareek Guru Khalsa all saying that Guru Nanak Dev Jee met with Bhagat Ravidas Jee (Meherwaan’s Janamsakhi, Ravidas Panthi Granth Pg 435, Guru Ravidas Pg 42).

Please also refute this article point by point and we can continue.

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I will do so in December. I don't have time right now.

Remind me in December. Make sure you have Bani of Sheikh Farid Understood by that time.

Overall, the points you said are contradicting aren't really contradicting. They are separate things so they aren't contradicting. Understand what I mean.

As for spitting on moon, moons don't run away from AKaal Takht.

He was even offered Jthaydaari of AKaal Takht but refused because he had to stop things such as Sarabloh and not eating from non-chelas. People change. Good become bad and bad become good.

E.g. Dunni Chund did gdaaree when time came.

Bidhi Chund got Sardaree when time came.

You still didn't answer the use of Word Sheikh Farid.

Here it is again and you have fallen into your own trap.

You say Ibrahim Sani used Farid because was descendent of Sheikh Farid. What does that mean? That means he was follower of Sheikh Farid. Thus it has nothing to do with Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

So if he realized the truth when he met Guru Nanak, then why did he still use Farid?

When he no longer belonged to Sheikh Farid then why use his name? Copyright violation.

As for the article, remind me in december.

Tommorrow someone can write article about Guru Sahib taking cannabis and opium using the same granths. Will you accept? All granths mention Guru Sahib eating meat, do you accept?

Why the dual standards and pick and choose?

Howeverm, you don't pick or choose but follow Colorful Friends and other books.

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He was even offered Jthaydaari of AKaal Takht but refused because he had to stop things such as Sarabloh and not eating from non-chelas. People change. Good become bad and bad become good.

What's your reference for this? If he became Jathedar why would he have had to stop eating from Sarbloh? No one would force him. At any rate give a reference.

You still didn't answer the use of Word Sheikh Farid.

Here it is again and you have fallen into your own trap.

You say Ibrahim Sani used Farid because was descendent of Sheikh Farid. What does that mean? That means he was follower of Sheikh Farid. Thus it has nothing to do with Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

So if he realized the truth when he met Guru Nanak, then why did he still use Farid?

When he no longer belonged to Sheikh Farid then why use his name? Copyright violation.

You haven't explained why there are words like Prabh and Saadh in the bani which are not used by Muslims. You haven't answered all the points made.

At any rate I'll answer your question. The descendant was called Farid Sani by everyone (in that lineage). The present descendant admits that the bani is by the 14th in that line. All the Bhatts used their old names in Bani and so did Bhagat Farid. It's not rocket science.

You still haven't answered my question about Naam. As it says in the Sikh Rehit Maryada that Naam is the word "Vahiguru" do you now admit this as opposed to your earlier statement that

My naam is all of Gurbani. What is better? One word of Gurbani?
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I could never think how idiotic you can be but you have showed by disrespecting a Gursikh. You are contradicting yourself and changing statements. Just because you were insulted doesn't mean you have the right to insult Gursikhs. Who the heck are you to compare yourself to Bhai Randhir Singh. The way you are writing posts I have to say that you are some kid who has no manners. Read "Bhagat Bani Ithaas" first. Talking to you is like "Majh de Aagay Been Vajana". Guru Rakha - Bijla Singh

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Also, I am calm and cooling.

However, me, you can't be fooling.

may i add my silly query in this serious debate..

The great panthic Khalsa fauji, by looking at your made up rhymes on sikhawareness and on sikhsangat.. makes me ask you question, you sure you are not influenced by black sub culture?

if yes, whats up my nigga? yo alright brotha? whos the batti man? blad clot bom bak lat ni man tongue.gif :D LOL.gif

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I could never think how idiotic you can be but you have showed by disrespecting a Gursikh. You are contradicting yourself and changing statements. Just because you were insulted doesn't mean you have the right to insult Gursikhs. Who the heck are you to compare yourself to Bhai Randhir Singh. The way you are writing posts I have to say that you are some kid who has no manners. Read "Bhagat Bani Ithaas" first. Talking to you is like "Majh de Aagay Been Vajana". No doubt deras have harmed Sikhi but what about SGPC that has budget of 62 billion rs? What have they done with this money? They control Gurdwaras yet no parchaar being done. They run Missionary college yet the only preachers are coming out who question very fundamentals of Sikhi such as Naam. You need to change man. Guru Rakha

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On a serious note, this *edited* needs to be banned on this forum, he not only insulted great gursikh on this thread by calling bhai sahib bhai randhir singh ji also sort of name but also on other threads called sant maharaj isher singh ji rara sahibwale isher-misher singh, and also insulted baba nand singh ji maharaj. This twat atleast need a warning that will get his *edited* atleast on this forum.

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I am not influenced by Black culture. I don't listent to black music or anything else.

As for comparing myself to Bhai Randhir Singh, so what? Did he put a copyright that no one can compare to him? Was he SatGuru that no one can compare to him? If you ban me, I will use that time to write some books and that is even worse. Hahahahahahahahahaha!

Who gave Bhai Randhir Singh permission to disrespect Bhagats by saying they are stuck in Karam Khund. He portrayed himself as above Bhagats. You guys have lived and grown up in western countries and got no clue and intake whatever your jatha feeds. Maybe you guys didn't know but Ghugga isn't from Sikh Missionary College or Shaheed Sikh Missionary College. What can you guys do other than ban me? Threats don't work on BAIs. If Bhai Randhir Singh is so high and Naam japp or the word Waheguru is the only thing needed, I recommend handing over the saroops of Guru Granth Sahib Ji back to Akaal Takht and doing parkash of books by Bhai Randhir Singh. That way I won't need to debate with you guys as it will be clear that you guys aren't part of the Panth.

At least Radha Swamis had the manhood to come out and declare that they aren't part of the Khalsa Panth.

Namastang, you are more lost than anyone. You have been disrespecting Bhai Randhir Singh for years and no one has banned you. If you want to ban me go ahead but also change the name to Jatha sangat and not Sikhs sangat. Remove any links to Gurbani and just post info from books by your jatha leaders since they were above Guru Ji and Gurbani according to you guys.

Namastang is a promtoer of hair cutting and drugs as evidenced on his website, his language is also uncivilized. He just hates me due to dasam granth. RSS material can take over for a while but kaum is waking up in Punjab.

I respected AKJ more than any other jatha and respected Bhai Randhir Singh too but this thread has made me lose respect for him so blame youself.

As for the fake Khalistanis on this website, lets see you guys establish Khalistan.

What was Bhai Randhir Singh looking for from naked sadhu as written in his book?

If Bhagats weren't great then what was the point of them meeting Guru Ji?

Faridaa Bay Nivaaja Kutteyaa Eh Naa Bhlee Reet! Kub Hee Chul Naa Aaeyaa Punjay Vukhut Museet.

That all somone needs to understand if he was Muslim or not.

Dates can be off by maybe 20 years maximum, not centuries. What is next? Jesus was born in 1516 and got naam from Guru Nanak Dev Ji?

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Waheguru Ji Ka KHALSA Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

All my brothers and sisters

There are really many learned people in this forum. Very Nice. But perhaps that is why many conflicting views!!!

I just want to say one thing. After listening to my uncles discussing (I don't have much knowledge) I can conclude that the best way all this arguments will stop is the day we follow ONE path, ONE Maryada - and that is the original maryada bestowed by Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj. All later creations are man made. Thus creating confusions and fights. SGPC maryada has created the most blunder. Actually no one is following it including its diehard supporters. Not even a single Amrit Sanchar done with 5 pauris Anand Sahib. Chairs in darbar sahibs is against SGPC maryada yet all Gurdwaras in Malaysia have it......... and the list is long. When they can't follow it, they want to change the maryada now, to suite them. 10 years in future new scholars will come and change it again. More confusions and fights and break-up in Panth. So follow one original maryada.

"SACH PURANA HOWEH NAHI"

Bhul Chuk Maaf.

Waheguru Ji Ka KHALSA Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

All my brothers and sisters

There are really many learned people in this forum. Very Nice. But perhaps that is why many conflicting views!!!

I just want to say one thing. After listening to my uncles discussing (I don't have much knowledge) I can conclude that the best way all this arguments will stop is the day we follow ONE path, ONE Maryada - and that is the original maryada bestowed by Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj. All later creations are man made. Thus creating confusions and fights. SGPC maryada has created the most blunder. Actually no one is following it including its diehard supporters. Not even a single Amrit Sanchar done with 5 pauris Anand Sahib. Chairs in darbar sahibs is against SGPC maryada yet all Gurdwaras in Malaysia have it......... and the list is long. When they can't follow it, they want to change the maryada now, to suite them. 10 years in future new scholars will come and change it again. More confusions and fights and break-up in Panth. So follow one original maryada.

"SACH PURANA HOWEH NAHI"

Bhul Chuk Maaf.

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Wahe (Great) Guru (Guru) which is Gurbani is the Gurmantar.

Let’s analyse that a bit. Vahi (Wow! Or expression of Ascharj) Guru (Enlightener) is the Gurmantar, meditating on which one loses ego.

You said “which is Gurbani”. It makes no sense at all to say Wow Guru is the Gurmantar. How can the Guru be the Guru’s Mantar. The Guru is the Guru! Unfortunately the only person you are fooling with this concocted meaning is yourself. Can you find even ONE other scholar or anyone else who agrees with your translation?

If we go with your translation, then Vahiguru Jee Ka Khalsa Vahiguru jee kee Fateh doesn’t mean that the Khalsa belongs to God, but it means Khalsa belongs to Gurbani? Does that make any sense?

At any rate, the Akal Takhat Maryada makes it clear that the word “Vahiguru” is the Gurmantar. How will you reject that?

Waheguru gurmantar hai jap humai koi

Singh123,

i would like to ask a question... The word Wahguru comes in guru granth sahib ji like this in total:

vwihgurU vwihgurU vwihgurU vwih jIau ]

WAh guru, wah guru, wahguru, wah jeeeo

This particular thuuk comes in gurbani 4 times

3 times on panna 1402

and once ond panna 1403.......

the other shabad is ... kIAw Kylu bf mylu qmwsw vwihgurU qyrI sB rcnw ]

keea kail bad maail tamasaa wahguru tairee sabh rachna

IN all these thuukks bhuuta thee bani they are giving maham praise to guru sahib by calling wahguru...

Wahguru, Wahguru , Wahguru wah jeeeo

this shows that WAH meaning GREAT... and then GURU

Gurbani has it in this enlightment.. now show me anywhere where in guru granth sahib thee bani where it says Waheguru is NAAM

Prof Sahib singh Aarth of Wahguru:

pd ArQ:— vwihgurU—hy gurU

ArQ:— vwh vwh ! hy ipAwry ! hy gurU !

Now lets analyze this prof sahib singh has done this aarth as VAH Guru... now i dont understand what yiou are trying to say... what guru granth sahib ji is saying is tottally different then what you are defining... you are repeating one single word.. while we are trying to read gurbani...

Show me where in guru granth sahib ji does it say WAHGURU IS NAAM ... BENTI

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Secondly Stop with this baby talk about warnings and bans... When people talk against the teachings of sikh missionary collage or someone else would not like to name it is ok for those people...

But when Some people talk about taksal and what is written in there books it is closed right away and then people start complaining and the biased mods start giving warnings...

This site is beter then other with tolerance but there are flaws....

ADMIN ji you need to choose who should be mod and not with there stance on gurmat... neutral will be best... not one from one saide and not one from the other... because people like bilja who was previously a mod made a mockery of freedom of speech.... yes there are restrictions to freedom of speech i dont literly mean say whatever you like but doing vichaar or someone not agreeing with him.. closed thread finished....

truth needs to be out.... who will talk about all the things in the books which have already been published and are sitting in our local libraries in the gurdwaras..... cant we have one dedicated thread to that so we can discuss each point and not argue with in depth analysis with what is in the books

fateh

Waheguru Ji Ka KHALSA Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

All my brothers and sisters

There are really many learned people in this forum. Very Nice. But perhaps that is why many conflicting views!!!

I just want to say one thing. After listening to my uncles discussing (I don't have much knowledge) I can conclude that the best way all this arguments will stop is the day we follow ONE path, ONE Maryada - and that is the original maryada bestowed by Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj. All later creations are man made. Thus creating confusions and fights. SGPC maryada has created the most blunder. Actually no one is following it including its diehard supporters. Not even a single Amrit Sanchar done with 5 pauris Anand Sahib. Chairs in darbar sahibs is against SGPC maryada yet all Gurdwaras in Malaysia have it......... and the list is long. When they can't follow it, they want to change the maryada now, to suite them. 10 years in future new scholars will come and change it again. More confusions and fights and break-up in Panth. So follow one original maryada.

"SACH PURANA HOWEH NAHI"

Bhul Chuk Maaf.

Waheguru Ji Ka KHALSA Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

All my brothers and sisters

There are really many learned people in this forum. Very Nice. But perhaps that is why many conflicting views!!!

I just want to say one thing. After listening to my uncles discussing (I don't have much knowledge) I can conclude that the best way all this arguments will stop is the day we follow ONE path, ONE Maryada - and that is the original maryada bestowed by Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj. All later creations are man made. Thus creating confusions and fights. SGPC maryada has created the most blunder. Actually no one is following it including its diehard supporters. Not even a single Amrit Sanchar done with 5 pauris Anand Sahib. Chairs in darbar sahibs is against SGPC maryada yet all Gurdwaras in Malaysia have it......... and the list is long. When they can't follow it, they want to change the maryada now, to suite them. 10 years in future new scholars will come and change it again. More confusions and fights and break-up in Panth. So follow one original maryada.

"SACH PURANA HOWEH NAHI"

Bhul Chuk Maaf.

IF we have trouble following the minimal requirements for gursikhi reyat... then what are we gonna say to singh 132 who is a suportter of sarbloh bibek....

The reason akal takht maryada was made because after the time of udhasi nirmalai mahants had statues in darbar sahib and other guru ghars maryada was no more.....

So then came SIkh reyat maryada which was made to bring alll gurughars under one maryada... and the duty which this was laid upon was SGPC... BUT SGPC are the same people now who Promote "Fateh Divas" the promotion of dasam granth.. when in Akal takht maryada it says that only guru granth sahib ji, bhai gurdas diya vaara, and bhai nand lal jee diya varra are bani... and are to be only read on stage nothing else... and now look what we have SGPC doing....

there are sevreal other issues but time is short

fateh

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