Just Came Back From India....

[Guest Narinder Singh]

post a pic of the earliest known flag of india and i'll post the earliest known flag of the sikh nation. i bet the sikh nation's flag pre-dates the indian nation's flag.

Stop playing childish playground type dares mann. You are getting married now, so sianeyaan gallan kareya karr. You tell me earliest known reference to Khalistan and i'll tell you the earliest known reference to Hindustan according to Sikhs. I bet the the Hindustan reference will pre-date the Khalistan one.

khuraasaan khasmaanaa kee-aa hindusataan daraa-i-aa

Page 360, Guru Nanak Dev Ji

Our Guru is making a clear reference to hindustan as a seperate region, or nation, or area, whatever you may call it. Either you agree with that reference or you don't.

hindustan was never a united nation but a region. a region made up of sovereign nation-states with distinct languages, customs, etc. This region was sometimes consolidated by various kings and dynasties, but never remained so.

The sikh sovereign state was consolidated by Maharajah Ranjit Singh when he brought all the jathedars and misls under one flag, but it did not remain so.

By your definition, Punjab was also made up of sovereign nation-states like Kapurthala, Patiala etc etc. You want me to post the flags of these nation states.

let's not deny the sovereign sikh kingdom of punjab. If hindustan was one nation, then we wouldn't ahve the anglo-sikh wars, but rather the anglo-hindustani wars. the sikhs faught in the anglo-sikh wars defending their sovereign homeland. and hsitory which we just skip over and go back thousands of years before to hindu dynasties.

By your analogy, U.S.A, Canada, China, or UK, and many more should not be nations. A New Yorker has nothing in common with a Texan. A New Foundlander or a Quebecer has nothing in common with an Albertan. A Mongol has nothing in common with a Han. A scot has nothing in common with english.

i have nothing against hindustan, but don't deny and twist history.

Same here, but don't deny and twist the Guru's words.

Didn't Guru Nanak Dev Ji speak of a Halimi Raj? and Dasam Pita, Guru Gobind Singh Ji also spoke of khalsa raj.

The India we see today, which is being completely controlled from the center never existed back then, yes the land was referred to as "Hind" by the people and foreign invaders, but it was made up of several kingdoms. You could almost look at it as a continent rather than a unified nation.

As for states within sovereign Punjab, yes they existed, just as they did and still do in other nations, but all these states were united, the kingdoms in India were never all united. Banda Singh Ji Bahadur established the first Sikh raj, and even appointed governers to each state he had taken over, he even created his own currency, so youd have to go a little further back than Maharaja Ranjit Singh when it comes to Sikh rule. And if you really wanna find out about how "sovereign" the Sikhs were, read any book on world history that is not written by an Indian or a hardcore bharti (they usually ignore or distort historical facts). It'll definately be an eye-opener.

Fateh.

[mann_kaum_layee_qurbaan]

lol, i'm always gonna be a moorakh, married or not

siaaneiah galaan ta siaane bande hi karooge na

assi ta bhole bhaale pagal.....

i don't deny that shabad bro. guru nanak dev ji's words are eternal, but don't use a word from gurbaani to suit your needs. the shabad's purpose is not to prove the validity of hidustan as a soveriegn united nation, which is your purpose. If you want to quote gurbaani let's talk about gurbaani downplaying the importance of idol worship, pilgrimages, and the role of brahmans. you do that and your whole hindustan will be after you like a bat out of hades.

chal hindustan is a great soveriegn nation. now what. ladoo wandieh? chal mooh mitha karieh. bharat mata ki jai.

khush?

i hope so :cool:

peace bro.

just messin around...take it easy.

[Laadli Fauj]

India (Hindustan region) as one united nation never existed.

1st nishan sahib--Guru Amar Das Ji--White flag w/Ik Onkar

Indian subcontinent as one united nation, Tri Color started around 1947

Look at those maps you posted--no one actually had 100% of the sub continent, and it is also like that today.

...I think

[jai_ho]

well i just got back from India a couple days ago. Got engaged, and also got a court marriage under the Hindu Marriage Act, got the certificate to prove it. It actually says "Hindu Marriage Registration"

The trip started out by landing at Indira Gandhi International Airport. For all the super philisophical sikhs on this site who think naming an airport after a genocidal leader is a non-issue, I must say that the name of this airport is labelled everywhere so no mistake is made as to who this airport is named after. So after landing at the airport named after the murderer of innocent sikh sangat, I proceeded on the journey to Punjab.

I was very very impressed by the overall development of India. delhi actually has a skyline, if you go on the highway which goes past the Raddison Hotel, owned by Badal I believe. It looked like an american skyline. Very very impressive. My flight actually was 60-65% gorre on business to India. This actually proved helpful because now the airport officials don't bother you for bribes cause a few dozen gorre are waiting behind you in line to go past immigration and the indian officials don't want to hold up the lines and make India look bad in front of the visiting gorras. Immigration went smoothly.

So I just looked out the car window and was amazed how the country is developing. Poverty is still there but you get a sense of change, of real economic change.

So on the way to punjab, we stopped by our usual Dhaba for food in Haryana. The last time I went to thsi place 10 years ago, it was basically a tent. Well, this bad boy was now a three story mega dhaba, with washrooms so clean I actually didn't feel like barfing when entering it. The wasrooms were state of the art, with child workers cleaning it constantly. Yes, the child labor thing is an issue still. So had some great dhaba food and proceeded to PUnjab. the streets are amazing.

One major thing I noticed is that the police presence is very minimal these days. I remember back in the day cops were everywhere, this time I barely ever saw any cops.

It was election time and watching IBN-CNN or whatever, I was pretty impressed by the american style election coverage. India is definitely on the rise.

of course with all the nice roads and development, you have your people on the side of the roads doing a number one and in some rare cases some kids doin a number two

Also surprisingly, I didn't see too much anti-sikh stuff, saw a lot of gurbaani boards, sikhi related signs, etc etc. Also saw a lot of people in dastaars, many many kids who keep Kesh.

Ok, onto the point. Khalistan. My humble and honest observation about khalistan in Punjab, is that the Indian gov't has successfully killed any genuine widespread support for an independent sikh state. However, I will say this, the people of Punjab have a very very emotional nature and don't atke anyone's garbage. The attitude of Punjabi sikhs is one of immense pride and vigor. I don't see any tyrannical regime suppressing the dynamic nature of Punjabi sikhs. the people are strong physically and mentally. I didn't see any pushovers. What I did see is a group of people who just want to live and live with dignity. With the media presence in PUnjab i don't see the gov't getting away with another 1984. it is just impossible.

i was laughing with my brother-in-law, that us NRIs talk about khalistan, but someone like me would just die from drinking the water in India(had my bottled water with me at all times lol ).....

there are a lot of things i observed but it would get very long.....just thought i'd share a few things...

I noticed the various laws which muddle the sikh identity, i noticed how punjabi is being lost with Hindi words, "ye acha hai, neeche ah jao, nashta kar lao..." all this kind of nonsense, like no one says bhain ji anymore, everyone says "didi"....landing at an aiport named after indira was quite annoying....

but one thing i want to leave with is this. There is just something about the people of Punjab that says, no one can mess with these people. There is an attitude a swagger. It's kind of like, hey you make your laws but we know who we are. you mess with us and we'll break your neck. i don't know. I'm happy with all the development and at the same time there are some things lacking.

overall, i was happy with my trip.

chalo, that's enough for now.

peace.

..i also went to punjab in 2006 summer & i remember playing a game while going to jalandhar( spotting punjabi's) all you see is bhayias, forget about the cities people have started speaking hindi in villages & the youth most of them are addicts of some kind drug (alcohol is a drug too)

…1984 cant happen because of the media presence in punjab (remember how the media reacted when amrinder abolished all the agreements regarding Punjab waters)

[Harmeet Singh]

Jayd,

Is khurasan a nation also? More on Khurasan at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khorasan

Khurasan is also mentioned in the same context as Hindustan, in a subcontinental reference. Hindustan was not a National identity.Don't view it from today's paradigm.

[KKV]

can we for once stop judging people. What makes Sikh better than an Hindu? What makes Hindu better than a Sikh?

Dont take the following as offensive BUT to my understanding; there wouldnt be hindu's if it wearnt for our Vude'h Sikh - in the time when mughal's were in raaj - they had hindu's / anyone who wearnt muslim converting - it was our Guru's and Shaheed's that fought back

[Bijla Singh]

My thoughts on India and Punjab

I too visited Punjab after 10 years and returned in March. Besides bad experience with Air India (a disgrace to air travel) everything was good. Amritsar airport was nice but nothing like in the west. Four bhayeeas were trying to figure out how to turn the computer on. Many were standing and wandering around like there was no work. Customer service is at worst as always. Delhi airport is no different. Certainly India is developing economically and so is Punjab (very slowly and slower than other states). However, I did not see much improvement in the lives of the people. Same houses with little to no change. People in villages are at worst. Bribery, carelessness and corruption at a higher level than before. Everything is getting expensive and less employment opportunities. Most good jobs are found outside of Punjab.

Sangat has significantly increased at Darbar Sahib. So I went around 10am when there are not a lot of people there. It felt very peaceful being away from traffic, honking and the dust. Besides, Darbar Sahib is the ultimate place of inner and outer peace. It felt really good to visit all the Gurdwaras and meet my friends and relatives. I talked to many people and tried to see what they thought about living in India. Almost all of them did not like the way things were. Not that they wanted Khalistan but they certainly did not like how things were being run by the government. Most people are unaware of the rich Sikh history and Sikhs being a separate nation. Media has played much of the role in brainwashing the youth. I talked to many of my friends and cousins about Sikhi and Sikh martyrs. Basic things about Sikhi and sakhis that we read everyday in the west were unknown to them but I think the youth is willing to listen and understand if they are approached in the right way. Inside they had shardha for Sikhi. I always tied dumalla and they treated me with respect. Many asked me to teach them how to tie a dumalla as they found it to be more stable and better looking than a pug. I bought some good books and distributed them amongst whom I knew most. Two of my friends said they would stop trimming beards, and couple of others were deeply interested in studying last 30 years of Sikh history and learning more about Sant Jarnail Singh Ji. Only time will tell how they turn out as the influence of anti-Sikhi forces is at large in India. But talking to them revealed that our (Sikhs) top priority must be the parchar and education. This in my opinion is the road to Khalistan. On a side note, I did see amritdhari Sikhs who practice Sikhi and many sabat soorat people who were not amritdhari (yet).

India is growing as is every third world country in the world. This world is a dynamic place and changes everyday but in my opinion this is not a reason to compromise our freedom and dignity. Mughal empire and British empire had more riches than India does. Technology was changing back then as well. World is never the same but the attitude of the governments towards Sikhi has stayed the same if not gotten worst over time. In the future, I believe some sectors of India may very well develop but India as a whole never will unless drastic measures are taken signs of which are not apparent as of now. Even if India were to become a first world country and stronger and richer than USA I would still fully support a separate Sikh nation. No money or worldly riches can provide the protection, honor and dignity that of a homeland. There is no place like home. I felt sad when I left the land of the Gurus where Sikhi started but I left with a certainty that one day power from Darbar Sahib (which the government tried to destroy) would rise bringing chardee kala in the panth and blood spilled by my brothers and sisters will bring fruits of freedom. And I just might be the lucky one to see that day. Guru Rakha

[singhalicious]

My thoughts on India and Punjab

I too visited Punjab after 10 years and returned in March. Besides bad experience with Air India (a disgrace to air travel) everything was good. Amritsar airport was nice but nothing like in the west. Four bhayeeas were trying to figure out how to turn the computer on. Many were standing and wandering around like there was no work. Customer service is at worst as always. Delhi airport is no different. Certainly India is developing economically and so is Punjab (very slowly and slower than other states). However, I did not see much improvement in the lives of the people. Same houses with little to no change. People in villages are at worst. Bribery, carelessness and corruption at a higher level than before. Everything is getting expensive and less employment opportunities. Most good jobs are found outside of Punjab.

Sangat has significantly increased at Darbar Sahib. So I went around 10am when there are not a lot of people there. It felt very peaceful being away from traffic, honking and the dust. Besides, Darbar Sahib is the ultimate place of inner and outer peace. It felt really good to visit all the Gurdwaras and meet my friends and relatives. I talked to many people and tried to see what they thought about living in India. Almost all of them did not like the way things were. Not that they wanted Khalistan but they certainly did not like how things were being run by the government. Most people are unaware of the rich Sikh history and Sikhs being a separate nation. Media has played much of the role in brainwashing the youth. I talked to many of my friends and cousins about Sikhi and Sikh martyrs. Basic things about Sikhi and sakhis that we read everyday in the west were unknown to them but I think the youth is willing to listen and understand if they are approached in the right way. Inside they had shardha for Sikhi. I always tied dumalla and they treated me with respect. Many asked me to teach them how to tie a dumalla as they found it to be more stable and better looking than a pug. I bought some good books and distributed them amongst whom I knew most. Two of my friends said they would stop trimming beards, and couple of others were deeply interested in studying last 30 years of Sikh history and learning more about Sant Jarnail Singh Ji. Only time will tell how they turn out as the influence of anti-Sikhi forces is at large in India. But talking to them revealed that our (Sikhs) top priority must be the parchar and education. This in my opinion is the road to Khalistan. On a side note, I did see amritdhari Sikhs who practice Sikhi and many sabat soorat people who were not amritdhari (yet).

India is growing as is every third world country in the world. This world is a dynamic place and changes everyday but in my opinion this is not a reason to compromise our freedom and dignity. Mughal empire and British empire had more riches than India does. Technology was changing back then as well. World is never the same but the attitude of the governments towards Sikhi has stayed the same if not gotten worst over time. In the future, I believe some sectors of India may very well develop but India as a whole never will unless drastic measures are taken signs of which are not apparent as of now. Even if India were to become a first world country and stronger and richer than USA I would still fully support a separate Sikh nation. No money or worldly riches can provide the protection, honor and dignity that of a homeland. There is no place like home. I felt sad when I left the land of the Gurus where Sikhi started but I left with a certainty that one day power from Darbar Sahib (which the government tried to destroy) would rise bringing chardee kala in the panth and blood spilled by my brothers and sisters will bring fruits of freedom. And I just might be the lucky one to see that day. Guru Rakha

At the end of that i just got to say isnt it supposed to be Rabh Rakhe :umm:

[Laadli Fauj]

Same thing isn it?

[jai_ho]

At the end of that i just got to say isnt it supposed to be Rabh Rakhe :umm:

..no my friend its Rabh Rakha