Hindu Voice Uk

[Guest Dancing Warrior]

Whats wrong in saying all Sikhs are Hindus? ‘Hinduism’ has millions of branches/philosophies and the word itself is an umberella term coined by parsis to understand the composite culture of India. Rather than every fringe group calling themselves as ‘independent of hinduism’ and proactively working towards segregation, they should first learn about their roots and unite under the ‘hindu’ umberella - which literally provides infinite freedom.

The first sikh guru WAS INDEED a ‘Hindu’, just like Gautama Siddharth was a ‘Hindu’ and so is Sri Sri, Mata Amritanandamayi, Vivekananda, Rama Krishna etc. Their followers would do more justice to their Master’s teachings by reognizing their rooots and adhering to the spirit the teachings [DERIVED from the ocean called ‘Hinduism’] - staying united rather than segregating with the fear of ‘losing identity’!!

i will like to have answer to it instead of just abuse.

Who claimed to be Hindu? Gautama? Brahma? Vishnu? Mahesh? Ram Chandan? Guru Nanak?

I think you’ll find None of them did.

[Onkar Singh]

how can u say guru nanak dev ji was a hindu? he didnt follow hinduism or take part in hindu rituals because he knew they were pointless. hinduism is a religion and so is a belief. if someone does not hold that belief then they cannot be classified as being a hindu. guru nanak dev ji created a new way of thinking that was completly seperate from hinduism and islam.

and when u say that groups such as namdharis and nirankaris accept that sikhism is part of hinduism that is completly irrelevant. these groups are not considered to be sikhs because they do not believe in guru granth sahib ji and therfore can not be sikhs. these groups were created by crazy hindus who just want to destroy our religion.

u say that our leaders accept we are hindus but they dont have the authority to make that judgement. the only leader we have is shiri guru granth sahib ji and guru jis teachings do not match those of hindus.

your just an iggnorant fool for thinking we are part of hinduism. instead of trying to tell other people what to believe why dont you go do something useful with your life?

[singh_comradz]

hinduism and sikhism is totally diff u cant categorize em similar bc in most of the main points in the religions are diff. for example ...

Sikhism rejects polytheism and accepts monotheism. Whereas Sikhism starts with one God and universalizes Him, Hinduism starts with many Gods and occasionally gives glimpses of 'One'.

"I do not accept Ganesha as important. I do not meditate on Krishna, neither on Vishnu. I do not hear them and do not recognize them. My love is with the Lotus feet of God. He is my protector, the Supreme Lord. I am dust of his Lotus feet." (Guru Gobind Singh, Krishna Avatar)

Authority of the Vedas and the belief that the truth revealed in them is absolute and that reading them one can realize perfection.

"I have read all the Vedas, but my mind's separation from God is not removed and the five demons of my house (body) are stilled not even for an instant." (Guru Arjan Dev, Ashtpadis, pg. 687)

Sikhism does not recognize any priestly class.

"Kabir, the Brahman may be the Guru of the world, but he is not the Guru of the saints. He rots to death in the perplexities of the four Vedas" (Bhagat Kabir, Salok, pg. 1377)

Rejection of the Ashrama Dharma theory of dividing man's life into four stages. Instead the Gurus emphasized living the householders life. Rejection of the Varna distinction of division of human society into higher and lower castes.

"There are four castes of the literates, warriors, cultivators and menials and the four stages of life. He who meditates on the Lord is the most distinguished amongst men." (Guru Ram Das, Gond, pg. 861)

"The Lord asks not mortals caste and birth, so find thou out the Lord's True Home (truth). That alone is man's caste and that his glory, as are the deeds which he does." (Guru Nanak, Parbhati, pg. 1330)

The Gurus rejected the Avtara theory of the incarnations of God. The Gurus not only exposed the mortality of these gods but used stories to illustrate moral values, such as 'pride leads to a fall' illustrated by the story of Harnakhash, untouchability becoming superior through devotion to God by Krishna stories and stories where Bhrahma, Vishnu and Shiva are shown to be ordinary mortals. The Gurus stressed that there is only one God and that these gods and goddeses were not true.

"In every age, the Lord creates the kings, who are sung of as His incarnations. Even they have not found His limits." (Guru Amar Das, Ashtpadis, pg. 423)

"Millions of incarnations of Vishnu and Shiv, with matted hair Desire Thee, O Kind Lord, with endless longing of their mind and body. Infinite and Inaccessible is Lord, the World Sustainer, and He is the Omnipresent wealthy Master. The gods, perfect persons, heavenly heralds and celestial singers contemplate on Thee. The greater gods and heavenly dancers utter Thine praises. Myrids of kings, gods and many super human beings remember the Lord and hail Him." (Guru Arjan Dev, Chhant, pg. 455)

Worship of idols and images.

"The blind ignorant ones stray in doubt and so deluded, deluded they pluck flowers for worship. They worship the lifeless stones and adore tombs. Their service all goes in vain." (Guru Ram Das, Malar, pg. 1264)

"They who say the stone is a god; in vain is their service. He who falls at the feet of the stone; vain goes his labour. My Lord ever speaks. The Lord gives gifts to all the living beings. The Lord is within, but the blind one knows not. Deluded by doubt, he is caught in a noose. The stone speaks not, nor gives anything. In vain are the ceremonies of the idolater, and fruitless his service." (Guru Arjan Dev, Bhairo, pg. 1160)

The Gita and Vedanta goal of a Mukt. Once he achieves salvation he does not live for the community. In Sikhism the Gurmukh achieving salvation lives to save others.

"Abandon lust, wrath, avarice and worldly love. Thus be rid of both birth and death. Distress and darkness shall depart from thy home, when, within thee, the Guru implants wisdom and lights the Divine lamp. He, who serves the Lord crosses the sea of life. Through the Guru, O slave Nanak, the entire world is saved." (Guru Arjan Dev, Gauri, pg. 241)

Belief that reading of the six Shastras and their mastery will bring salvation.

"The greatly voluminous Simirtis and Shastras stretch out the extension of worldly love. The fools read them, but know not their Lord. Some rare one knows Him by the Guru's grace. Of Himself the Creator does and makes others do. By means of the True Bani, He implants truth within the mortal." (Guru Amar Das, Maru, pg. 1053)

"Many Shashtras and many Simirtis have I seen and searched them all. Nanak, they equal not Lord God's invaluable Name." (Guru Arjan Dev, Gauri, pg. 265)

well thats wat you say your leadership says otherwise himat sohi says sikhs are hindu and so does the your vedenthi and badal and every other jatha namdhari, radha soami and nirankari and etc.you have no right or athority.

They're not my leaders :wub: and I think most would think the same.

True leaders are born, not made.

[laxman]

Whats wrong in saying all Sikhs are Hindus? ‘Hinduism’ has millions of branches/philosophies and the word itself is an umberella term coined by parsis to understand the composite culture of India. Rather than every fringe group calling themselves as ‘independent of hinduism’ and proactively working towards segregation, they should first learn about their roots and unite under the ‘hindu’ umberella - which literally provides infinite freedom.

The first sikh guru WAS INDEED a ‘Hindu’, just like Gautama Siddharth was a ‘Hindu’ and so is Sri Sri, Mata Amritanandamayi, Vivekananda, Rama Krishna etc. Their followers would do more justice to their Master’s teachings by reognizing their rooots and adhering to the spirit the teachings [DERIVED from the ocean called ‘Hinduism’] - staying united rather than segregating with the fear of ‘losing identity’!!

i will like to have answer to it instead of just abuse.

Who claimed to be Hindu? Gautama? Brahma? Vishnu? Mahesh? Ram Chandan? Guru Nanak?

I think you’ll find None of them did.

*EDITED*

While debating and discussion is fine, we will not tolerate rudeness, insulting posts, personal attacks or purposeless inflammatory posts.

[Guest Dancing Warrior]

Whats wrong in saying all Sikhs are Hindus? ‘Hinduism’ has millions of branches/philosophies and the word itself is an umberella term coined by parsis to understand the composite culture of India. Rather than every fringe group calling themselves as ‘independent of hinduism’ and proactively working towards segregation, they should first learn about their roots and unite under the ‘hindu’ umberella - which literally provides infinite freedom.

The first sikh guru WAS INDEED a ‘Hindu’, just like Gautama Siddharth was a ‘Hindu’ and so is Sri Sri, Mata Amritanandamayi, Vivekananda, Rama Krishna etc. Their followers would do more justice to their Master’s teachings by reognizing their rooots and adhering to the spirit the teachings [DERIVED from the ocean called ‘Hinduism’] - staying united rather than segregating with the fear of ‘losing identity’!!

i will like to have answer to it instead of just abuse.

Who claimed to be Hindu? Gautama? Brahma? Vishnu? Mahesh? Ram Chandan? Guru Nanak?

I think you’ll find None of them did.

*EDITED*

I claim only to be a Sikh, its fanatics such as your good self that choose to label people. Snathan Dharma and Hinduism are two different areas of subject they are not the same , do some research if there’s an Looser in the midst, its you.

[mann_kaum_layee_qurbaan]

"well thats wat you say your leadership says otherwise himat sohi says sikhs are hindu and so does the your vedenthi and badal and every other jatha namdhari, radha soami and nirankari and etc.you have no right or athority. "

sarblohkhalsa.net has quoted Sri Guru Granth sahib Ji and Guru Gobind Singh ji. Nobody quoted a current leader. Sohi, Badal, vedanti etc are politicians not equal to Guru Gobind singh ji and Sri guru granth sahib ji.

also, maybe if you took the time to understand sikhi, unlike your "umbrella" of hinduism, nirankaris, radha swamis, naamdharis, are not part of sikhism, and are not accepted by sri akaal takhat sahib and the khalsa panth.

see how many times naamdhaari or other fake living gurus have had darshan of darbar sahib? jhutiyaa maar maar ki sir pola kar dena sikhaan ne unna da.

in our religion when someone rejects sri guru granth sahib ji, they are not part of the khalsa panth or sikhi. in your religion, someone rejects your gods, rejects your vedas, your gita, your puranas, your manu simritee, your upanashids, you every ritual, your ganga, your hardwar, your janeoo, etc etc, one is still a hindu.

how besharam can you be?

confused hindus need to stop wasting time on claiming sikhs are hindus and try to define Hinduism in the first place.

None of you guys can define your own faith and your here to lecture us on our faith based on the beliefs of some corrupt politicians. that's like accepting george Bush's definition of Christianity, rather than the bible's.

get a life.

peace.

[BABBAR KHALISTANI]

All the religions of the world, while they may differ in other respects, unitedly proclaim that nothing lives in this world but Truth.

The essence of all religions is one. Only their approaches are different.

I dont see why religions cannot accept each other as different instead of just trying to find faults in them or bringing them under their fold. This is were religion has become demonic.

As for Sikhism belonging to Hinduism surely it must be the decsion of each Sikh to decide whether they feel they are part of hinduism.

This is pure bull$h1t. A 'sikh' has no right to decide whether sikhism belongs to hinduism or not. Sikhism the ideology revealed through 10 gurus and no follower has the right on deciding about sikhism's ideology. The gurus' words and their plain rejection of hinduism or brahmanism speaks itself regarding the sikhism's view on hinduism. Every follower be it an enlightened one or an ignorant one is entitled to his/her views but they don't reflect sikhism's views. You better read the sikh scriptures and Gurus' way of life to get a better idea of sikh ideology rather than spreading your stupid typical RSS/ARYA SAMAJI filthy fundamental views.

[Bijla Singh]

The following is taken from Hum Hindu Nahin. Please take some time to read it.

If we consider carefully, not a single rule of the Hindu is free from fallacies of inconsistencies. As there are (almost) uncountable gods and books in Hindu Dharma, same holds for the rules and principles.

Rama, Vashisht, Visvamittar, Parasram, Krishna, Yudishtar etc kept Keshas and beard; they were Hindus. There are Hindus who keep just a tuft and others do not. Believers in Vedas are Hindus, and those who consider Vedas as compositions of unscrupulous people are also Hindus. Those who are prepared to make human sacrifice are Hindus and so are those who do not want to kill even an ant. Worshippers of dogs, scorpions, etc are Hindus and atheists are also Hindus. In fact, such are undefined boundaries of Hinduism that we cannot describe it. The strange thing is that Hindu Dharma is the only religion in the world that does not have its name in its scriptures, and the name “Hindu” given by others has been gladly accepted.

On this subject an article appeared in the Civil and Military Gazette, Lahore of April 16, 1913. In brief it says:

Before, we can write about Hindus it would be appropriate, as far as possible, to characterize a Hindu. Who can be called a Hindu? ‘Hindu’ is such a word on which census officers of various provinces have put great efforts to define, but they all differ with one another. It is easy to define Moslems, Christians, Sikhs, Zoroastrians, and Buddhists etc. a great difficulty is encountered when one tried to characterize a Hindu. Mr. Gail, Commissioner of Census has written, “Hindus are those who worship (great) gods, are allowed to go to Hindu temples and there make offerings and by the touch of them others are not rendered impure.” The superintendant of Cochin says that the above described characters do not apply to the Hindus of Malabar. He says that person is Hindu who believes in caste system. Superintendant of Mysore says, he is Hindu who believes in God and believes in the reward of good acts of previous life and in this life, and by the virtue of those one day he will achieve that stage, in comparison to which this life in nothing. Superintendant of Travankor considers that person is Hindu who believes in Karma.

Mr. Blunt has come to the conclusion that a Hindu is that person who is original habitant of Bharat (India) has no admixture foreign race, believe sin Brahmin as Guru, respects cow, at least considers it a sin to kill or disturb a cow. At the end Mr. Blunt writes that even this does not characterize Hindus completely. In fact, there is no boundary of Hindu religion.

Everybody is not prepared to accept these characteristics described by Mr. Blunt. In fact, such definition will even put composers of Vedas in wonder. There are sects around Allahabad who are atheists, bury their dead and do not respect Brahmins. There are others who invite Brahmins and cremate their dead. Chamars eat beef and still count themselves among Hindus.

The truth is that if someone tries to satisfy oneself by reading the reports and notes of the census officers, he will not achieve anything. He will not be any more knowledgeable about the Hindus.

Rest of the arguments of Hindus are refuted here: http://searchsikhism.com/hinduism.html

[Singh, Mahan]

Recently I came across a discussion on an other website.. During this discussion writer No1 replying to someone’s post suggested that Brahma,Vishnu and Shiva combined in powers make a supreme God which is same as what Sikhs call as God. Posters Nos. 2, 3 and 4 argued that is not so. Very interesting and convincing posts by the posters No 2, 3 and 4. I am copying these posts here for you to read.

*************

Post by poster No 1 ( Humaisetuaisa ) started the argument.

>>>>

Sikh Gurus and Bhagats whose bani is in SGGS ji do not believe Vishnu or any other demigod to be supreme power.They have addressed Akal purakh by various names such as Har,Gopal,Gobind,Ram(Let us not mistake this to be King Rama),Allah,Rahim etc

>>>.

Dear All Sat Sri Akaal

Shri Ram Chander Ji or 'King Ram' as refered, I agree was not supreme lord. King Ram also called upon Lord Ram, the supreme being for help when he came upon crossing the ocean.

From the Mahabharata times, Lord Krishna has been called by the names of Gopal, Gobind/Govind, Thakur, Murari. In South India he is also called by the name of GURU (Guruvyura dham).

[b]Supreme Being AkaalPurakh manifests itself as three different forms responsible for different functions. These forms have come to be known as Supreme Gods. Brahmic power for the Generation. Vishnu for its Operation and Shiva for the Destruction. These three supreme powers of Lord combined are known as G.O.D. [/b]

Narayan, Nursingh Bhagwan, Hari, Krishana, Gopal, Gobind, Ram, Parmatma, AkalPurakh, Nirankaar, Swami are named after Lord's infinite powers.

Anyway, there is already so much hatred in the world, I wasn't trying to win over a debate. I was merely trying to say that 'their' God is no different than 'our' God. We or they haven't patented or got an exclusive right over Supreme God (kudrat ke sab bande) All God's children. We have found the true Lord through our Gurus and are lovingly called Sikhs (Lord's Disciples). Now, its our utmost Duty to bring others (siblings in spiritual world) to Supreme Lord and through Gurubanis let others realise the warmth and sweet love of Param Pita.

By being over protective about our religion, and let separatists hijack our way of life and sitting idle and letting situation get out of control, we might just be doing a disservice and losing this fantastic opportunity (84 Lakh janams) to do true sewa in the way of true Lord. I especially appeal to my sikh brothers abroad living in safe heavens, stop fanning the little fire that's burning in our homes.

You wanted him and now you have found the true Lord, spread the true love you realised in dhyana, in the sweet company of Satguru Lord.

Is there any true guru ka sikh on this board who will rise and condemn the speech of killing 40000 hindus(we saw on CBC programme).

Lets all say together Satnam Sri Waheguru.

*******************

Reply by Poster No 2. (Lakwinder Singh)

<<<<<<From the Mahabharata times, Lord Krishna has been called by the names of Gopal, Gobind/Govind, Thakur, Murari. In South India he is also called by the name of GURU (Guruvyura dham).>>>>

Response

I agree this applies to Hinduism.It is inappropriate to force its application tosikhism.Our Gurus teachings are different from above.We believe in Akal Purakh whose attributes are given in mool Mantra.To have belief in our Gurus teachings does not berate other religions.We are trying to respond to distortions being propagated in relation to message of Guru sahiban.

Guru ji writes in Asa Di vaar

O Nanak, the Lord is fearless and formless; myriads of others, like Rama, are mere dust before Him.

naanak nirbha-o nirankaar hor kaytay raam ravaal.

There are so many stories of Krishna, so many who reflect over the Vedas.

kaytee-aa kanH kahaanee-aa kaytay bayd beechaar

Ang 464,SGGS

<<<<Supreme Being AkaalPurakh manifests itself as three different forms responsible for different functions. These forms have come to be known as Supreme Gods. Brahmic power for the Generation. Vishnu for its Operation and Shiva for the Destruction. These three supreme powers of Lord combined are known as G.O.D.

Narayan, Nursingh Bhagwan, Hari, Krishana, Gopal, Gobind, Ram, Parmatma, AkalPurakh, Nirankaar, Swami are named after Lord's infinite powers.>>>>>>

Response

Sikhism does not believe that trinity is resposible for creating,sustaining and destroying this world.Following is sikh view of creation of the universe

Gurbani says

maaroo mehlaa 1.

Maaroo, First Mehl:

arbad narbad DhunDhookaaraa.

For endless eons, there was only utter darkness.

Dharan na gagnaa hukam apaaraa.

There was no earth or sky; there was only the infinite Command of His Hukam.

naa din rain na chand na sooraj sunn samaaDh lagaa-idaa. ||1||

There was no day or night, no moon or sun; God sat in primal, profound Samaadhi. ||1||

khaanee na banee pa-un na paanee.

There were no sources of creation or powers of speech, no air or water.

opat khapat na aavan jaanee.

There was no creation or destruction, no coming or going.

khand pataal sapat nahee saagar nadee na neer vahaa-idaa. ||2||

There were no continents, nether regions, seven seas, rivers or flowing water. ||2||

naa tad surag machh pa-i-aalaa.

There were no heavenly realms, earth or nether regions of the underworld.

dojak bhisat nahee khai kaalaa.

There was no heaven or hell, no death or time.

narak surag nahee jaman marnaa naa ko aa-ay na jaa-idaa. ||3||

There was no hell or heaven, no birth or death, no coming or going in reincarnation. ||3||

barahmaa bisan mahays na ko-ee.

There was no Brahma, Vishnu or Shiva.

avar na deesai ayko so-ee.

No one was seen, except the One Lord.

naar purakh nahee jaat na janmaa naa ko dukh sukh paa-idaa. ||4||

There was no female or male, no social class or caste of birth; no one experienced pain or pleasure. ||4||

naa tad jatee satee banvaasee.

There were no people of celibacy or charity; no one lived in the forests.

naa tad siDh saaDhik sukhvaasee.

There were no Siddhas or seekers, no one living in peace.

There were no Yogis, no wandering pilgrims, no religious robes; no one called himself the master. ||5||

jap tap sanjam naa barat poojaa.

There was no chanting or meditation, no self-discipline, fasting or worship.

naa ko aakh vakhaanai doojaa.

No one spoke or talked in duality.

)

aapay aap upaa-ay vigsai aapay keemat paa-idaa. ||6||

He created Himself, and rejoiced; He evaluates Himself. ||6||

naa such sanjam tulsee maalaa.

There was no purification, no self-restraint, no malas of basil seeds.

gopee kaan na ga-oo go-aalaa.

There were no Gopis, no Krishna, no cows or cowherds.

tant mant pakhand na ko-ee naa ko vans vajaa-idaa. ||7||

There were no tantras, no mantras and no hypocrisy; no one played the flute. ||7||

karam Dharam nahee maa-i-aa maakhee.

There was no karma, no Dharma, no buzzing fly of Maya.

jaat janam nahee deesai aakhee.

Social class and birth were not seen with any eyes.

mamtaa jaal kaal nahee maathai naa ko kisai Dhi-aa-idaa. ||8||

There was no noose of attachment, no death inscribed upon the forehead; no one meditated on anything. ||8||

nind bind nahee jee-o na jindo.

There was no slander, no seed, no soul and no life.

naa tad gorakh naa maachhindo.

There was no Gorakh and no Maachhindra.

naa tad gi-aan Dhi-aan kul opat naa ko ganat ganaa-idaa. ||9||

There was no spiritual wisdom or meditation, no ancestry or creation, no reckoning of accounts. ||9||

varan bhaykh nahee barahman khatree.

There were no castes or social classes, no religious robes, no Brahmin or Kh'shaatriya.

day-o na dayhuraa ga-oo gaa-itaree.

There were no demi-gods or temples, no cows or Gaayatri prayer.

hom jag nahee tirath naavan naa ko poojaa laa-idaa. ||10||

There were no burnt offerings, no ceremonial feasts, no cleansing rituals at sacred shrines of pilgrimage; no one worshipped in adoration. ||10||

naa ko mulaa naa ko kaajee.

There was no Mullah, there was no Qazi.

naa ko saykh masaa-ik haajee.

There was no Shaykh, or pilgrims to Mecca.

ra-ee-at raa-o na ha-umai dunee-aa naa ko kahan kahaa-idaa. ||11||

There was no king or subjects, and no worldly egotism; no one spoke of himself. ||11||

bhaa-o na bhagtee naa siv saktee.

There was no love or devotion, no Shiva or Shakti - no energy or matter.

)

saajan meet bind nahee raktee.

There were no friends or companions, no semen or blood.

aapay saahu aapay vanjaaraa saachay ayho bhaa-idaa. ||12||

He Himself is the banker, and He Himself is the merchant. Such is the Pleasure of the Will of the True Lord. ||12||

bayd katayb na simrit saasat.

There were no Vedas, Korans or Bibles, no Simritees or Shaastras.

pwT purwx audY nhI Awsq ] (1036-5, mwrU, mÚ 1)

paath puraan udai nahee aasat.

There was no recitation of the Puraanas, no sunrise or sunset.

\kahtaa baktaa aap agochar aapay alakh lakhaa-idaa. ||13||

The Unfathomable Lord Himself was the speaker and the preacher; the unseen Lord Himself saw everything. ||13||

jaa tis bhaanaa taa jagat upaa-i-aa.

When He so willed, He created the world.

baajh kalaa aadaan rahaa-i-aa.

Without any supporting power, He sustained the universe.

)

barahmaa bisan mahays upaa-ay maa-i-aa moh vaDhaa-idaa. ||14||

He created Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva; He fostered enticement and attachment to Maya. ||14||

virlay ka-o gur sabad sunaa-i-aa.

How rare is that person who listens to the Word of the Guru's Shabad.

kar kar daykhai hukam sabaa-i-aa.

He created the creation, and watches over it; the Hukam of His Command is over all.

khand barahmand paataal arambhay guptahu pargatee aa-idaa. ||15||

He formed the planets, solar systems and nether regions, and brought what was hidden to manifestation. ||15||

taa kaa ant na jaanai ko-ee.

No one knows His limits.

pooray gur tay sojhee ho-ee.

This understanding comes from the Perfect Guru.

)

naanak saach ratay bismaadee bisam bha-ay gun gaa-idaa. ||16||3||15||

O Nanak, those who are attuned to the Truth are wonderstruck; singing His Glorious Praises, they are filled with wonder. ||16||3||15||

Ang 1035 and 1036, SGGS

<<<<I was merely trying to say that 'their' God is no different than 'our' God. We or they haven't patented or got an exclusive right over Supreme God (kudrat ke sab bande) All God's children. We have found the true Lord through our Gurus and are lovingly called Sikhs (Lord's Disciples).>>>

Response

Nobody tried to lay exclusive rights over God.Sikhism preaches that God is one and all religious teachings lead to one God in their own way.

<<<<By being over protective about our religion, and let separatists hijack our way of life and sitting idle and letting situation get out of control, we might just be doing a disservice and losing this fantastic opportunity (84 Lakh janams) to do true sewa in the way of true Lord. I especially appeal to my sikh brothers abroad living in safe heavens, stop fanning the little fire that's burning in our homes.>>>>>

Response

I have not understood what you mean by above.Nobody said anything what you have written above.The subject is not topic of discussion and is irrelevant.You have to set your home in order yourself.

<<<<<Is there any true guru ka sikh on this board who will rise and condemn the speech of killing 40000 hindus(we saw on CBC programme).

Lets all say together Satnam Sri Waheguru.>>>>>>

Response

Nobody condones killing of any human be they Hindu,Muslim etc.We are against violence.This is complete out of the topic as far as this thread is discussed.

There is another thread going on for this subject. please give your opinion there.As far as i understand the person who has said this was tried by court of law and has been acquitted.We were discussing about True Guru and not sensational politics.

********************

Reply by Poster No 3 (Manjit Singh)

Moderator's Note: Could someone explain why the discussion is being hijacked into 'Hindu' versus 'non-Hindu' when the topic is who is true Guru? May be we should also explain how does Guru differ from God and why?

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Some comments about the posts by Humaisetuaisa ji.

Guru Nanak refers to an entity 'Nirgun Nirankaar' which is infinite (formless entity that is infinite and without any material properties). It (He/She) is the ultimate reality of all things created (the SAT). All material things that are created have originally came out of Sat; and ultimately, when they have run their material course will disappear back into Sat as formless and without any properties associated with matter. That is how SAT is the Absolute Truth, the ultimate reality, the truth about all things, or the true identity of all things. Whatever has come out of Sat will merge back into IT (refer to Maru M. 1). Nirgun Nirankaar is infinite. It pervades without (out side) and within the universe /universes. Perhaps, it would be more appropriately to say that the universe(s) and all exist within the infinite Nirgun Nirankaar. Sat has many attributes. A count of those attributes can not be made. We come to know only a few that become relevant to our lives. However, one can easily understand from the concept of the SAT (as given to us by Guru Nanak) that among its countless number of attributes are the power to create, the power to destroy, the power to recreates and continually destroy and recreate, the power to sustain and ability to support all the things created till their time comes to end. According to Guru Nanak, in order to operate and control the existence of any created entity, SAT has created Hukum. The extent of Hukam is infinite. All things operate and exist accordance with the Hukam.

Sri Humaisetuaisa ji writes

>>> Supreme Being AkaalPurakh manifests itself as three different forms responsible for different functions. These forms have come to be known as Supreme Gods. Brahmic power for the Generation. Vishnu for its Operation and Shiva for the Destruction. These three supreme powers of Lord combined are known as G.O.D. <<<

In his post Sri Humaisetuaisa ji seems to referring to the Hindu theology by saying that Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are the three Supreme 'Gods':

Brahma being the Supreme 'God' of creation /generation,

Vishnu being the Supreme 'Go' of operation.

Shiva being the Supreme 'Go' of destruction.

My view of the above statement by Sri Humaisetuaisa ji is that if he is assuming that it is also a part of Sikh theology, he has misunderstood the basic Sikh theology, or he is trying to introduce the Hindu view of the world into the Sikh view.

To start with in Sikhism there is ONLY ONE God, not three 'Supreme Gods'. There is but ONE GOD that is Supreme and Infinite. According to my understanding of Sikhism, One Supreme God does not work through agents or demi gods. The entity that Sikh call Supreme God does things and controls every things by Himself (Herself/Itself). There is no need for Brahma, the god of generation; Vishnu, the god of operations; or Shiva, the god of destruction. According to Guru Nanak all these operation happen according to Hukam.

Secondly, now let us assume that Sri Humaisetuaisa ji is trying to say that Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are just the names given to the three functions namely the functions of ‘generation’, ‘operation’, and ‘destruction’; and that they by being just the names for these functions, did not appear on this earth as incarnated gods. If that is what he is trying to say, I do not see why these names from an other religion are to be made a part of vocabulary of the Sikh religion especially, when these three functions are already included in the Hukam. Hukam is infinite. Nirgun Nirankaar created Hukam. The three functions he mentioned are just a part of Hukam. Combining these three functions that are part of Hukam does not make an entity that is greater than Hukam, let alone it becoming the Supreme God. Combining these three functions falls far short of becoming 'One God' as stated by Guru Nanak. It seems to me that the entity "Supreme 'God'" or "G.O.D" as mentioned by Humaisetuaisa ji in his post is different from what Guru Nanak calls 'God'

I am curious to know, if the aforementioned entities - Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva or just the names given to the functions of generation, operation, or destruction only. For what little I know of Hindu view of gods and deities, are not these entities (Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva) believed to have been incarnated as life forms (i.e. they appeared on earth as living beings)?

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Reply by Poster No 4 (Serjinder Singh)

Waheguru ji ka khalsa

Waheguru ji ki fateh

Manjit ji/Lakhwinder ji

I agree with you to say that there is a fundamental difference, or I may dare say a tectonic shift in the cosmological concepts in Hinduism and Sikhism. The difference and the resulting confusion among both Sikhs and Hindus originates from here. To understand it let us start with the beginning, ie when there was not any universe or universes. Only God existed in formless status. In Sikhism the sabad in Rag Maru given by Lakhwinder ji in his post clarifies this.

Nirankar existed in 'Sunn Samaadh' and there was no universe or material entities. Nirankar existed in 'Aphur' state as Hindu religion would call it 'Aphur Brahm' in Vedantic philosophy. However, in his sport when Nirankar had this 'idea' or 'phurna' to create universes we have God in the 'Sphur' state. Following on from this the lines in the first pauri of Asa di vaar explain the sequence:

Apeenai aap sajio apeenai rachio nao. Duyee kudrat saaj kai kar asan ditho chao. (SGGS 463)

(God, Nirankar) set Himself up (in Saphur state), and He Himself created Naao(Naam). Secondly, He created Nature (Kudrat,Prakriti, maya )and then sat back to enjoy the spectacle.

So, the task of creating was left to 'maya', 'Kudrat', or 'Prakriti'. These being the different names of 'Maya'. It was 'maya' as created by 'Nirankar' that supervised or creation was being supervised by 'Maya'

The trinity of Hinduism is subservient to this maya created by Nirankar under his 'Hukam' or 'Eko kawao'.

In Japuji this hierarchy is reveled in the lines:

Eka maee, jugat viaee, tin chele parwan

Theire is only one mother (maya), the maya in conjunction with (viaee, married to) Jugat or Naam created at the same time as maya, approved of (designated) three disciples.

Ik sansaaree, ik bhandaree, ik laiye debaan.

One deciple to create the beings(Brahma), another to provide (Vishnu), and yet another one to destroy the world.

Thus this trinity of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiv or Mahesh is subservient to Maya and hence no way near in status to Nirankar who created even maya.

Now coming to the root of confusion among Hindus we have to look at Hinduism not as one monolithic entity. Hinduism comprises four major sects. These are:

1)

Vaishnavs

who consider Vishnu as the Supreme or eternal reality equivalent to Nirankar and believe that Vishnu incarnates in its numerous Avtars. This is where Sikhism differs in the sense that Nirankar never incranates in any form whether as human like Ram, Krishan, Baudh, Arhant or others, nor in part human part animal as Narsingh, nor as animals as tortoise or boar. Every human or animal or inanimate objects are part of maya and not Nirankar as such albeit in the last analysis it is Nirankar's hukam at play. In Vaishnav scriptures like Ramayan and Mahabharat other deities such as Shiv or Brahma or Devi are denigrated and shown less powerful and subservient to Vishnu.

2)

Shaivs

who consider Shiv as the eternal reality and are keen to show Shiv to be lording over the creation and other deities such as Vishnu etc.

3)Shakats

who consider 'Shakti' or various forms of female godess to be eternal reality akin to Nirankar. She they believe created both Dev and Daityas, ie both gods like Vishnu, Shiv, Indra etc and also the demons. It was she who delibrately created enemity among them and when the tensions are extreme she comes down from Himlayas (where she lives with her subservient husband Shiv) ti finish off the demons and install gods in heaven as rulers.

4) Tantriks

They are similar to Shakats but have their own secret rituals but have the concept of Shiv or Adi Shiv or Maha kaal as the supreme or eternal entity also named Nirankar in Tantrik scriptures. Most of the terminology we find in Dasam Granth is from Tantrik literature. They are materialistic in their outlook considering five M's akin to our 5 K', namely Madira(wine), Maas(meat), Mathun(coitus), Matasya(Fish), and Mudra(sexual positions).

This exactly is the reason that common Hindus consider all these three along with the fourth god Brahma (who has no sect of its own and very few temples in India dedicated to Brahma)as supreme.

Unfortunately, Hindus, especially, Sanatan Hindus could not come out of this multiplicity of supreme entities albeit Vednatic philosphers like Shankracharya tried to do this but remained bogged down in the dominance of caste structure and Veda supermacy.

It was the Bhakats and Sikh Gurus who forcefully abandoned the above Hindu thinking and gave the concept of formless God as Nirankar as the creator of maya and maya as creator of all gods and godesses.

So, the members of this trinity of gods are individually considered as eternal reality by respective sects but their incarnation as Avtars, or godesses under different names fighting wars as in the case of Chandi was not acceptable to Sikh Gurus or Bhagats.

Humbly

Serjinder Singh