From A Bangle To A Kara, From A Knife To A Kirpan

[AK-47]

Vaheguru ji ka khalsa Vaheguru ji ki fateh

There has been some debate recently on kakkars and who should be wearing them and as always what they should be.

Iv been thinking about this and without getting into the debate about what is or is not a kakkar, perhaps we need to look at when this 'thing' becomes a kakkar.

A kirpan if fundamentaly a knife/dagger

A kara is fundamentaly a bangle

Kesh are what everyone else calls hair/baal

Kashera is a type of under garment

Kanga is a comb.

So at what stage do the above become the 5 kakkars?

As a brother also posted on another discussion, it is WHEN amrit is received that the above become special and become kakkar.

Before taking amrit people call their hair baal, after amrit is given they become kesh, it is only at this point that you have kesh as they have NOW been blessed by guru ji. An iron bangle on the arm of a amritdhari is a kara, on the arm of the woman sitting next to me at work who has a very similar but thinner iron bangle it is just a bangle!

different cultures around the world may have under garments similar to the kashera .. but this does not make them kashere does it?

plenty of people carry knifes these days, some are similar in shape to what we call kirpans .. but if these are used to mug old ladies then they are not kirpans are they?

When gurbani talks about the paras, well this amrit is the paras, which turns ordinary objects into the magnificent panj kakkar.

Vaheguru ji ka khalsa Vaheguru ji ki fateh

[Tarrandeep Kaur]

Vaheguru ji ka khalsa Vaheguru ji ki fateh

There has been some debate recently on kakkars and who should be wearing them and as always what they should be.

Iv been thinking about this and without getting into the debate about what is or is not a kakkar, perhaps we need to look at when this 'thing' becomes a kakkar.

A kirpan if fundamentaly a knife/dagger

A kara is fundamentaly a bangle

Kesh are what everyone else calls hair/baal

Kashera is a type of under garment

Kanga is a comb.

So at what stage do the above become the 5 kakkars?

As a brother also posted on another discussion, it is WHEN amrit is received that the above become special and become kakkar.

Before taking amrit people call their hair baal, after amrit is given they become kesh, it is only at this point that you have kesh as they have NOW been blessed by guru ji. An iron bangle on the arm of a amritdhari is a kara, on the arm of the woman sitting next to me at work who has a very similar but thinner iron bangle it is just a bangle!

different cultures around the world may have under garments similar to the kashera .. but this does not make them kashere does it?

plenty of people carry knifes these days, some are similar in shape to what we call kirpans .. but if these are used to mug old ladies then they are not kirpans are they?

When gurbani talks about the paras, well this amrit is the paras, which turns ordinary objects into the magnificent panj kakkar.

Vaheguru ji ka khalsa Vaheguru ji ki fateh

For a singh who is always going on about ekta, you seem to try your very best to bring up controversial issues, im sure this will get us ekta.

In regards to the above line in bold......so ur kesh is blessed by guruji??? but you already have this kesh?

all you have done is provide a list of the four kakars and kesh, and provided engllish translations for us. the 5 kakars are given to us after taking amrit, it is mandatory to wear therm at all times, and if we remove them we can do ardas and ask for forgiveness. kesh doesnt come under this. it has been given a much higher status.

You are supposed to be alot older and maturer than us 'youth' so how about stop bringing these topics up, you have your veiws, we have ours.

vahigurujikakhalsa vahigurujikifateh.

[AK-47]

For a singh who is always going on about ekta, you seem to try your very best to bring up controversial issues, im sure this will get us ekta.

In regards to the above line in bold......so ur kesh is blessed by guruji??? but you already have this kesh?

all you have done is provide a list of the four kakars and kesh, and provided engllish translations for us. the 5 kakars are given to us after taking amrit, it is mandatory to wear therm at all times, and if we remove them we can do ardas and ask for forgiveness. kesh doesnt come under this. it has been given a much higher status.

You are supposed to be alot older and maturer than us 'youth' so how about stop bringing these topics up, you have your veiws, we have ours.

vahigurujikakhalsa vahigurujikifateh.

ermmm maybe you want to read this other thread ...

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=26944

which is all about whether non amrithdharis can/should wear kareh, (or other kakkars) my post was in response to this debate. and not to cause controversy, i think paranoia is what you are experiencing.

and as for highlighting one sentance inbold, what are you trying to suggest? The suggestion i am putting forward is that kakkars are only kakkars when the person wearing them has taken amrit, before this point they are bangles, knives, combs, hair, shorts etc. if you dont agree with this view, then please say why, im not saying im right, just making a suggestion.

this isnt a debate over which kakkar is which, and dont try and turn this into that either. yes i believe kesh is a kakkar and that is what i will say. why should i not say what i believe to be my kakkar when talking about kakkars!! thats insane!

anyway like i said leave your paranoia aside and think about what i have suggested. is it right to assume that kakkars are kakkars on everybody? or are kakkars only kakkars when kept by somebody who has taken amrit? e.g if a drug adict was to wear a knife the same shape as our kirpans, would he be classed as wearing a kakkar?

ps admin, if anyone else starts debating kesh vs keski please can you remove thier arguments, as it is VERY clear that this topic is not about that! thank you.

[Tarrandeep Kaur]

For a singh who is always going on about ekta, you seem to try your very best to bring up controversial issues, im sure this will get us ekta.

In regards to the above line in bold......so ur kesh is blessed by guruji??? but you already have this kesh?

all you have done is provide a list of the four kakars and kesh, and provided engllish translations for us. the 5 kakars are given to us after taking amrit, it is mandatory to wear therm at all times, and if we remove them we can do ardas and ask for forgiveness. kesh doesnt come under this. it has been given a much higher status.

You are supposed to be alot older and maturer than us 'youth' so how about stop bringing these topics up, you have your veiws, we have ours.

vahigurujikakhalsa vahigurujikifateh.

ermmm maybe you want to read this other thread ...

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=26944

which is all about whether non amrithdharis can/should wear kareh, (or other kakkars) my post was in response to this debate. and not to cause controversy, i think paranoia is what you are experiencing.

and as for highlighting one sentance inbold, what are you trying to suggest? The suggestion i am putting forward is that kakkars are only kakkars when the person wearing them has taken amrit, before this point they are bangles, knives, combs, hair, shorts etc. if you dont agree with this view, then please say why, im not saying im right, just making a suggestion.

this isnt a debate over which kakkar is which, and dont try and turn this into that either. yes i believe kesh is a kakkar and that is what i will say. why should i not say what i believe to be my kakkar when talking about kakkars!! thats insane!

anyway like i said leave your paranoia aside and think about what i have suggested. is it right to assume that kakkars are kakkars on everybody? or are kakkars only kakkars when kept by somebody who has taken amrit? e.g if a drug adict was to wear a knife the same shape as our kirpans, would he be classed as wearing a kakkar?

ps admin, if anyone else starts debating kesh vs keski please can you remove thier arguments, as it is VERY clear that this topic is not about that! thank you.

well goreh have got kesh. that means they have one of the kakars? :wub:

[Wutgwan]

Edited, can't be a@@@@.

It's all good :wub:

[AK-47]

well goreh have got kesh. that means they have one of the kakars?

thats entirely my point!

goreh also wear shorts with naleh ... do they therfore wear kashere?

iv seen kaleh with massive afro combs made purely out of wood ... are they therefore wearing kangeh?

iv seen many people carrying knives of different types, some similar to the kirpans many of us wear .. so are they wearing the kirpan kakkar?

the woman near me at work, wears an iron bracelt ..is she also wearing a kara?

[BaBa.G]

*** I have deleted inappropriate posts on this thread, and have decided to let this thread continue. Please Stay on Topic. The thread creator is not here to discuss which are the 5 kakkars (which goes against rules of forum) nor the authenticity of certain banis. The original post is not here for causing a debate or arguments.

The original posters is trying to say that our kakkars only become kakkars when we take Amrit. Whether we believe Kesh or Keski as a kakkar isn't the point, and should not be used as a form of debate. Please continue on discussing in a humble and loving manner.

Any posts in reference to whether keski or kesh is kakkar or legitimacy of bani will be deleted and members will get warning.

Thank You! ***

[guru'sfateh]

I think Tarrandeep Kaur bibi ji needs to re-read the topic and not blow it out of proportion. The singh is just saying that once we have recieved amrit and bowed down to our sri guru granth sahib ji as our eternal guru and master - only then does hair = kesh, knife =kirpan, comb = kanga, shorts = kashera, bangle = kara. Once they have guru's grace and you are the guru's sikh that when the transition occurs to panj kakkar. Simple.

[Tarrandeep Kaur]

Hmmm ok sorry.

I think its more than that. for example what would you say if a mona who drank and smoked and went clubbing all the time, wore the panj kakkars. would you say its pointless. Fair enough you say they are not kakkars.

You see there are lots of people who are preparing to take amrit and they wear the kakars. So they keep strict amrit vela do gurbani and japp naam, but you're saying they are not wearing a kirpan, its something else? are you saying that because they are not amritdhari, they arent wearing the kakars.

I think its more than just wearing the kakars, for you to wear them and for them to become kakars, you have to be following sikhi, doing baani and japping naam. You have to accept mahraj as your true guru. I think that if you do not follow sikhi and dont belive in mahraj and commit kurehits then they shouldnt be called kakkars.

I dont know just my opinion.

[guru'sfateh]

Hmmm ok sorry.

I think its more than that. for example what would you say if a mona who drank and smoked and went clubbing all the time, wore the panj kakkars. would you say its pointless. Fair enough you say they are not kakkars.

You see there are lots of people who are preparing to take amrit and they wear the kakars. So they keep strict amrit vela do gurbani and japp naam, but you're saying they are not wearing a kirpan, its something else? are you saying that because they are not amritdhari, they arent wearing the kakars.

I think its more than just wearing the kakars, for you to wear them and for them to become kakars, you have to be following sikhi, doing baani and japping naam. You have to accept mahraj as your true guru. I think that if you do not follow sikhi and dont belive in mahraj and commit kurehits then they shouldnt be called kakkars.

I dont know just my opinion.

Refering to the above in bold; yes, that only happens once you've had amrit and declared who your guru is... hence only then thru your guru's kirpa do these objects become kakkar. chalo its personal opinion.