What Does Hindu Images Portray

[N30S1NGH]

Do you really even know what you are saying. That Kachera comes from hanuman most probably from Dasam granth. right.

I don't think this is from Dasam Granth at all but from sanatan influence. Sant Gurbachan Singh along with other Sikhs influenced by sanatanism believe in such but this is all manmat. Giani Ditt Singh refuted these points long time ago and recent book Tabay Roas Jageyo also refutes this point. Existence of hanuman cannot even be proven let alone him giving his only kachera to Sikhs and then leaving naked.

Existence of sri hanuman ji is proven one, here is the picture of composition called hanuman natak.

A hand written copy of the 'Hanuman Natak' - it is said the manuscript copy of Hriday Ram's Hanuman Natak was gifted to Guru Gobind Singh by Bahadar Shah. Loads of puratan mahapursh including - sant gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale, sant jawala singh ji harkhowale, sant aya singh ji hoti mardan ad nirmal sant mandali have master this text. Its treated as relic of sri guru gobind singh ji.

courtesy of author- Freed.

Entry for 'hanuman natak' in Mahan Kosh

Mahan Kosh Encyclopedia

ਸੰ. हनमन्नाटक ਹਨੁਮੱਨਾਟਕ. ਸੰਸਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਦਾ ਇੱਕ ਕਾਵ੍ਯ, ਜੋ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ੍ਰ ਜੀ ਦਾ ਇਤਿਹਾਸ ਅਖਾੜੇ ਵਿੱਚ ਖੇਡਕੇ ਦਿਖਾਉਣ ਯੋਗ ਹੈ. ਇਹ ਵਿਦ੍ਵਾਨ ਹਨੁਮਾਨ ਦੀ ਰਚਨਾ ਹੈ. ਕਈ ਕਵੀਆਂ ਨੇ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਵਾਲਮੀਕਿ ਦੇ ਕਹਿਣ ਤੇ ਹਨੁਮਾਨ ਨੇ ਆਪਣਾ ਨਾਟਕ ਸਮੁੰਦਰ ਵਿੱਚ ਸੁੱਟ ਦਿੱਤਾ ਸੀ ਤਾਂਕਿ ਵਾਲਮੀਕ ਰਾਮਾਇਣ ਦੀ ਮਹਿਮਾ ਨਾ ਘਟੇ. ਰਾਜੇ ਭੋਜ ਦੇ ਸਮੇਂ ਮੋਤੀ ਕੱਢਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਡਬੋਲੀਏ ਨੂੰ ਇੱਕ ਸਿਲਾ ਹੱਥ ਲੱਗੀ, ਜਿਸ ਦੇ ਪੇਸ਼ ਹੋਣ ਪੁਰ ਰਾਜੇ ਨੇ ਓਥੋਂ ਪੱਥਰਾਂ ਪੁਰ ਉੱਕਰਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਨਾਟਕ ਕਢਵਾਇਆ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਸੰਗ ਨਹੀਂ ਮਿਲੇ ਉਹ ਦਾਮੋਦਰ ਮਿਸ੍ਰ ਨੇ ਬਣਾਕੇ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਪੂਰਣ ਕੀਤਾ. ਇਸ ਦਾ ਹਿੰਦੀ ਅਨੁਵਾਦ ਭੱਲਾ ਕੁਲ ਦੇ ਰਤਨ ਕਵਿ ਹ੍ਰਿਦਯਰਾਮ ਨੇ ਬਾਦਸ਼ਾਹ ਜਹਾਂਗੀਰ ਦੇ ਸਮੇਂ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੈ. ਯਥਾ- ਸੰਮਤ ਬਿਕ੍ਰਮ ਨ੍ਰਿਪਤਿ ਸਹਸ ਖਟ ਸ਼ਤ ਅਸੀਹ¹ ਵਰ, ਚੈਤ੍ਰ ਚਾਂਦਨੀ ਦੂਜ ਛਤ੍ਰ ਜਹਁਗੀਰ ਸੁਭਟ ਪਰ, ਸ਼ੁਭ ਲੱਛਨ ਦੱਛਨ ਸੁਦੇਸ਼ ਕਵਿ ਰਾਮ ਵਿਚੱਛਨ, ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨ2ਦਾਸ ਤਨੁ ਕੁਲ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਸ ਯਸ਼ ਦੀਪਕ ਰੱਛਨ, ਰਘੁਪਤਿ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ ਤਿਨ ਯਥਾਮਤਿ ਪ੍ਰਗਟ ਕਰ੍ਯੋ ਸ਼ੁਭ ਲਗਨ ਗਣ, ਦੇ ਭਕ੍ਤਿ ਦਾਨ ਨਿਰਭਯ ਕਰੋ, ਜਯ ਰਘੁਪਤਿ ਰਘੁਵੰਸ਼ ਮਣਿ. ਇਸ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਵਿੱਚ ਕਈ ਕਬਿੱਤ ਕਾਸ਼ੀ ਰਾਮ ਕਵੀ ਦੇ ਭੀ ਹਨ.²

¹ਸਾਲ ਵਿਕ੍ਰਮੀ ੧੬੮੦. ²ਬਹੁਤ ਕਵੀ ਆਖਦੇ ਹਨ ਕਿ ਬਹਾਦੁਰਸ਼ਾਹ ਨੇ ਹ੍ਰਿਦਯਰਾਮ ਦੀ ਲਿਖੀ ਅਸਲ ਕਾਪੀ ਸ਼੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿੰਘ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੀ ਭੇਟਾ ਕੀਤੀ ਸੀ ਅਤੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੇ ਪੁਰਸ਼ੁਰਾਮ ਦੇ ਸੰਬਾਦ ਦੇ ਕੁਝ ਛੰਦ ਕਵਿ ਕਾਂਸ਼ੀਰਾਮ ਤੋਂ ਲਿਖਵਾਕੇ ਦਰਜ ਕਰਵਾਏ.

Here is sri hanuman picture in sri dasam granth sahib:

Not only that- this one you will love: Dasam Granth birs at Patna Sahib contain the Hanuman Natak. Chaupa Singh Rahitnama mentions Guru Gobind Singh reading from it as it talks about his Suryavams lineage(luv and kush-reference from dhan dhan sant gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale ) source: 'Hanuman Natak' in Bhai Chaupa Singh Rehitnama; it's on page 94 at the top of the page in Piara Singh Padam's 'Rehitnama.

source: singh who have done research on this:

Hanuman Natak was written by a Rishi a while back ago. This rishi did not complete the granth , he died before he finished it. This got into the hands of the Mohgul government, run by I think Jangangir (i think...). At this one of his kavis decided to finish it, he did many prayers and asked that he could, like the rishi, write the granth. Eventually he finished it, with apparently, the blessings of God. So then, this granth got passed down, from emperor to emperor, and eventually found its way to Bahadur Shah. Bahadur Shah gave Guru Gobind Singh Ji this Granth as a gift. Guru Gobind Singh Ji read the granth and loved it!!!! The poetry in this granth is so beautiful that Maharaj kept it in his kamarkasa.

So far we have provided references proving its existence of hanuman and orgin of kachera coming from hanuman like- bhai dya singh ji rehitnama, sant gurbachan singh ji rachna, priceless relic of hanuman natak given to sri guroo gobind singh ji, as well picture of sri hanuman ji in puratan bir of sri dasam granth.

Anti hanuman campaigners have provided nothing but usual insecurity and trumphet of hinduphobia.

[skepticSikh]

its like i never even posted...

[Singhstah]

I can't beleive racist scumbags are allowed to diss other dharam freely, what happened to forum rules now? i cannot beleive level of biogtry you guys come up with.

ps- singhstah, with all due respect sikhi didnt started from dhan dhan bhai sahib bhai randhir singh ji, get off the internet and read some books of sant gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale and bhai dya singh ji rehitnama once an while regarding orgins of kachera, you be suprised- it derived from sri hanuman ji who you subtly try to diss.

obviously you will call this rss propaganda blah blah yet find it absoultely ok to quote from bhai dya singh ji rehitnamas to prove your jatha beleifs..you know sikhi isnt buffet place, where you pick and choose whatever suits your agenda.

its late here, i ll get you the exact name of the book written by sant gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale, where this is mentioned.

lol bruv, bhai randhir singh ji has nothing to do with this, he was only metnioned in the sakhi to give a setting of time.

Ok about this hanuman and kachera thing, ive heard it before, I wont try to dispute that maybe he did wear a kachera as dont have enough knowledge on that,

however what I will say, is that even if he did wear one, doesnt mean your looking at it from the right perspective.

Would a King ever give his soldiers a serf's clothing to wear? The uniform and roop of the Khalsa had been planned out since before the begining of time by Guroo Gobind Singh Ji himself.

If the god Hanuman did wear a kachera, it would have been in awe of something blessed by Guroo Gobind Singh Sahib Ji Mahraj himself that he would have wanted to wear it. Not the other way round, never, why would Guroo Ji ever ask anyone lower than himself for help in creating the highest army in this creation? If we all agree that a true Gurmukh Khalsa achieves a state higher than a god like the hanuman ji then why would they wear the clothing of a lower being??

Point is that if hanuman ji wore a kachera it was cause he wanted the blessing of wearing something that signifys being a Khalsa and being under Shaahay shahan shaa Guroo Gobind Singh Ji Mahraj

[KKV]

i luv this thread got me laffin crazy!!! so far i've read sumwhere that the sun was swallowed by sum bloke

[Bijla Singh]

Dear Namstang, I won’t argue too much since it doesn’t relate to Gurmat but think logically and scientifically.

First of all, original hand written copy of hanuman does not exist. If it does then it must be verified through scientific ways. Also, from what period to what period did he live? In what area? For how long? What about his descendents, relatives or monkeys who looked like him? Where are they now? Surely, one cannot simply say they all went extinct.

Bhai Kahan Singh is simply stating what hindus believe. It doesn’t mean he himself believes in such mythology. If you want to know what he believes in then read Gurmat Sudhakar and other books in which he does not even mention hanuman showing up in 1699. If we believe the story then we must agree that hanuman was alive when valmick wrote ramayan which was 10,000 years before rama was born. So hanuman must have been a grown man during valmick, then lived for 10,000 years and then helped rama. So his total age gets well over 10,000 years. This is scientifically impossible. Also, all scholars agree that Hinduism is not older than 4000 years which itself rules out existence of hanuman. Besides, Ayodheya is only 2600 years old and proof of rama’s existence has been refuted. Archeological evidence and research records of 1951 and 1978 all conclude that Ayodheya was built by Buddhists and used to be a Buddhist center. Hand written accounts of Chinese travelers (about 1600 years old) all relate ayodheya to Buddhism. Hindus showed up much later. Many rayamans were written before valmick which suggest that rama was born in Varanasi. So Hinduism is 4000 years old and ayodheya is 2600 years old. Where do rama and hanuman fit in? No where.

Then we come to hanuman’s life. There is no ancient life account written of hanuman. What we know is he was born and right after birth swallowed sun. He was son of air and his mother became pregnant without any sexual intercourse. All of this is simply ridiculous. According to Gurbani

ਮਾ ਕੀ ਰਕਤੁ ਪਿਤਾ ਬਿਦੁ ਧਾਰਾ ॥ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਸੂਰਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਆਪਾਰਾ ॥

From the union of the mother's egg and the father's sperm, the form of infinite beauty has been created.

You may believe in other ways but Gurbani does not suggest any other way which is why Guru Sahib taught us to live Gristhi Jeevan so that humanity continues to exist.

So, then we skip 10,000 years of hanuman and he is with rama helping him cross the ocean.

You mentioned a copy of Hriday Ram. It was not written by hanuman and just because someone wrote a book on mythical character does not automatically prove its existence. Hriday Ram’s copy is around 400 years old but hanuman lived thousands of years ago. Guru Sahib is a great poet and he took a deep interest in translating the literature in a unique way. He translated Krishna Avtar, Chaubis Avtar, Chandi Di Vaar etc but doesn’t mean He believed in all this. The purpose was to translate not to revere these characters or deities.

Puratan birs of Dasam Granth all vary. Not every copy has the same content. It was only at the end of 19th century that Sikhs gave it the form that we have today. Clearly, hanuman natak was excluded which is only found in some copies. Had it been work of Guru Sahib, Sikhs would’ve kept it. Chaupa Singh’s rehatnama also mentions all the banis Guru Sahib wrote and hanuman natak is not part of it.

Now we come to the story of kachera. Establishing Khalsa was Hukam of Waheguru and planned by Guru Sahib. None of the historic records mention the story of hanuman. What year did hanuman show up? In what form? Why such an important event is not mentioned in 41 Vaar, Gur Sobha, Bhatt Vahis, Account of Bhai Jeevan Singh Ji etc. This story became popular during Arya Samaj which was refuted by Giani Ditt Singh.

It is unfortunate that Sant mandalee has resorted to relate every major Sikhi event to Hinduism. Bhai Gurdas Ji is avtar of Ganesha, Darbar Sahib is ancient hindu place where 7 hindu sadhus did bhagtee and hanuman buried rest of sanjeevani booti, karah parsad was prepared by hindu gods, ingredients of amrit were brought by hindu deities, kachera was given by hanuman and all Panj Pyare were avtars of hindu gods and bhagats blah blah blah. This is clearly an attack on Sikhi and surely RSS would be very proud of such Sikhs. Why couldn’t there be an avtar from Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, Shinto, Taoism, Shamanism, Islam etc? It won’t be long before every Shaheeds is labeled as avtar of some previous hindu deity. Some AKJ believe Bhai Fauja Singh was reincarnate of Baba Deep Singh Ji. Sanatanis would probably go a step further and declare all shaheeds to be avtars of parsuram, prehlad, dhroo, vishist, vyas, lachman, five pandavas etc.

You may blindly follow Sants and take everything they said to be true but Sikhi is a way of life and can only survive if we follow Gurmat not hindu mythology.

[B4ND4]

^^ThkQ Bijla veer :D

[skepticSikh]

yeah, that was a great analysis...

[chatanga]

When the kashera would enter her mouth, he wouldnt go in any further, and the demon-ni was forced to push him back out. this way his life was saved.

:D @ demon-ni

Wow I never knew she tried to devour him. In fact she tried to devour Sita and Lakshman cut off her nose and ears. As a matter of fact this demon-ni was Saroopankha who was Ravan's sister, and then started the conflict.

Thank you Mehtab Singh for correcting this goat.

chatanga

[chatanga]

I heard that in the Janansakhis , it says that Hanumaans mukiti actually came frm Guru Nanak in Guru ji udasi of sri lanka. any one heard this?

chatanga

[N30S1NGH]

Bijla Singh read your post, you explained it very well logically/sceintically. However, i must remind you, sikhi chivarly is not mohtaaj of socio-religious structure or logic or vigyan, sikhi is anaadi you may based gurmat on reasoning- logic/sceince structure but at the end of day, not everything in sikhi can be based on reasoning because sikhi doesnt have boundaries, where vigyan stops thats where sikhi starts because it started by akaal purkh. Akaal purkh doesnt have boundaries or religious/ social structures so as sri akaal purkh avtars.

I would shut up now, let other members ponder upon what i have said..