~! Danger Of Bhausaria Mindset In The Panth !~

[N30S1NGH]

The Mangals issue is totally different than the Bhasauria issue. The Mangals as they appear in the saroops that are printed today are not always correct. For example, in Sukhmani Sahib, the mangal appears after "salok" which is not shudh. I have not seen a single puratan saroop with the mangal in this way. In fact, in Guru Hargobind Sahib's own gutka sahib which is displayed at village Ghurani Kala along with Guru Sahib's chola and kharaanv, the mangal goes first.

I have seen one puratan hand written saroop from the 1700s with all the Mangals first.

I think that this issue was decided without enough consideration and research.

I think we need to distinguish between making any changes at all to the status quo vs. making innovations.

As a matter of fact, dass has been blessed once to do the darshan of a puratan Saroop of Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj which was written by Bhai Mani Singh.

The mangal comes first

There is also a Puratan Saroop written by Baba Deep Singh, which is still present till today in Sachkhand Sri Hazoor Sahib.

They only do parkash of this saroop once a year, during the Gurgadhi Dihara of Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj.

Dass was there last year, and had darshan of this saroop.

The mangals come first.

So the next time you can have darshan of this saroop is between 31 Oct-1 November 2008.

(there is also a sarop there, written by one of the Panj piarey, it is written by Piarey Bhai Sahib Singh---->didn't have the time to get darshan of this saroop tho)

The last time I checked, the mangals were changed because of pressure by "Sant Samaj".

Chatrik you were totally misinformed that sant samaj were the ones who changed mangals, if you read little bit of history mate you will know sant samaj was the ones who burn the printing press which is used by so called scholars of that time to print new change, they were dying to divide the panth once again by creating unnecessary contoversy ie- mangal and have one standard for all the birs. That is destruction of sikh heritage as well many puratan manuscripts.

Little bit detail on the issue of mangals:

Kartarpur sahib saroop has mangal on right hand side and its on the top.

Damdama sahib saroop does not have any maryada where mangal should be, you can see both examples there where mangals came first and as well came second.

Eg- Sri Raag in damdama sahib saroop starts from:

Raag Sri Raag Mahalla 1

Ikongkar Satgurparsad.

Then there are other examples in damdama sahib bir, where mangals came first.

Now as i say again, the issues that sant samaj had with bhausaria type scholars that

- they want to have one standard saroop based on kartarpuri bir all across the gurdwaras because consistency in mangals, somehow it boggles them that how come mangals came first and as well came second in damdama sahib birs

- then you had other set of bhausaria scholars who were really hell bent to spread disbeleif that both kartarpuri bir as well damdama sahib bir were both altered, that certains banis in kartarpuri bir was added later in the bir. and also they spreaded disbeleif that damdama sahib bir got missing during ahmed shah abdali time and other mughal ruler, this disbeleif also clouded the mind by present time manuscripts scholars ie- jevan deol who is doing genuine research on manuscripts and unbias. This beleif was spread by bhausaria singh sabhas so that they can back up teja singh bhausaria's actions- taking out bhagat banis as well certain compositions in sri guru granth sahib ji. Sri Guru Gobind Singh gave guru gaddi to Sri Damdama saroop at hazoor sahib not kartarpur saroop because kartarpur saroop wasnt sampooran then. Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji finalized the sri guru granth sahib compilation in Sri Damdama sahib bir, that is set standard all the gurdwaras across because its sampooran and has tenth master signature on it.

[THE WARRIOR]

It scares me to see keertanees such as Bhai Tajinder SIngh Khanne Walae who get alot of airplay on radio and tv saying the gurmantar as Vahguru.

I am guessing that there might be plenty of people on this forum who meditate by saying vahguru rather then waheguru. Can we have your views please???????

Could be worse i bumped into a AJK lady who was doing naam simran with a mala, repeating the gurmantar as 'Baheguru'

Why are you so worried with what others are doing?

why don't ask yourself these questions:

Did I wake up for amrit wela todat?

How much TIME did I spent today doing simran?

If so, does my surti/dhian in blended in the dhunni of Gurmantar?

How many years has it been since I took Amrit? Have I still till today experienced the Anand and Russ of Simran?

Looking at other in life, we sometimes forget to look at ourselves.

Gurparsad

People seem more concerned about “Sparkling Jeevans” and fail to realise the seriousness and the subsequent repercussions of altering/editing Bani etc. Without accepting Gurbani as instructed and finalised by Guru Gobind Singh ji in its full untainted form as he saw it fit, all the above are just empty rituals.

[Aparadhee]

Ok the one thing which gets me is that the gurmantar 'Vahiguru' was changed during the time of Bhausuria. This was some how changed to Vah-guru. What is that about!!!!! Hello!!!!!!

kam1825:

"This change in the gurmantar was totally uncalled for and still continues to this day. I was reading the Gurmat mardand by Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha in which he writes the Gurmantar as Vahguru. I have a load of mates as well that when they meet you they will hug you and with their breaths say vahguru. Believing that this can cause the saas giraas to start in my body when i have not earned an iota of the Lords name. when challenged about the Gurmantar and that it should be Vahiguru as spelled in the mangals of the dasam bani, they refute this.

This is one of the Bhasuria ideas/notion/concept which has crept through and no one has challenged. If you get the gurmantar wrong then you are reciting a kachee bani. Without the Gurmantar who can the seed be sown so that the fruit will prosper. Without the correct seed you will not gain the correct fruit".

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

in sant harnam singh ji's book se kanhaiya, baba ji mentions a story of a child he took on who couldnt speak and was mentally disabled. baba ji taught him to say waheguru, but as he found it hard to speak at all he could only say "wa gu", day and night he would say it, not knowing what it meant, not knowing why he said it, he just done it because baba ji told him to. after a while this disabled boys speech and hearing improved, and he even began to experience gurmat anhad shabad, hearing of divine celestial music at the dasam duaar. this innocent devotee didnt have a clue what he was hearing and would run up to the tops of houses and ask others whether they can hear the "baajeh". they thought he went crazy but baba ji knew he was experiencing the fruit from his jap of gurmantr.

now this boy japped "wa gu" which sounds a darn sight worse than "wahguru", how come he got fruit from his labour, how come he acheived anhad shabad? a state that alot of us including papis like me will never achieve in lifetimes.

you say that reciting gurmantr wrong is kachi bani and that if you plant the seed wrong then you will attain the wrong fruit. how can you make this claim when there have been very many gurmukhs who have tasted amrit ras while japping gurmantr this way.

if you have not tasted ras thru this method then dont judge others and say what they do is wrong, you have not got a clue what these people are feeling and yet you belittle their efforts of japping naam because they dont do it "shudh".

im sorry if it sounds like an attack on you, but i have had the kirpa of maharaj to do sangat with gurmukhs who have attained very high avastha thru what you would call "planting the wrong seed" and an attack on them is totally uncalled for.

you dont need to be blatent in your attacks on jathebandis, next time keep it subtle so we dont notice. :-)

[N30S1NGH]

in sant harnam singh ji's book se kanhaiya, baba ji mentions a story of a child he took on who couldnt speak and was mentally disabled. baba ji taught him to say waheguru, but as he found it hard to speak at all he could only say "wa gu", day and night he would say it, not knowing what it meant, not knowing why he said it, he just done it because baba ji told him to. after a while this disabled boys speech and hearing improved, and he even began to experience gurmat anhad shabad, hearing of divine celestial music at the dasam duaar. this innocent devotee didnt have a clue what he was hearing and would run up to the tops of houses and ask others whether they can hear the "baajeh". they thought he went crazy but baba ji knew he was experiencing the fruit from his jap of gurmantr.

now this boy japped "wa gu" which sounds a darn sight worse than "wahguru", how come he got fruit from his labour, how come he acheived anhad shabad? a state that alot of us including papis like me will never achieve in lifetimes.

you say that reciting gurmantr wrong is kachi bani and that if you plant the seed wrong then you will attain the wrong fruit. how can you make this claim when there have been very many gurmukhs who have tasted amrit ras while japping gurmantr this way.

if you have not tasted ras thru this method then dont judge others and say what they do is wrong, you have not got a clue what these people are feeling and yet you belittle their efforts of japping naam because they dont do it "shudh".

im sorry if it sounds like an attack on you, but i have had the kirpa of maharaj to do sangat with gurmukhs who have attained very high avastha thru what you would call "planting the wrong seed" and an attack on them is totally uncalled for.

Thats a exceptional case, and should be treated as such, if this exceptional case becames a trend, then we are guilty of negligence of not keeping gurmat maryada in socio-religious circle of Khalsa Panth.

[Charandhoor Singh]

If you wish to use that exceptional case as a justification for perverting the Gur Mantr ( A topic which i believe was discussed here so time ago and soon locked), then it really does beg the question as to why the Gurmantr was given to us the way it was when it can be said any way we wish? When reading gurbani can we say that anyway we wish? Can we miss letters out from words that we read in Japji Sahib, does high level avastha mean we can read Gurbani as we see fit?

Hence as Namastang is mentioned that case is an exception, using it to justify a increasingly alarming trend has great consequences for many maryadas.

[kam1825]

so if the gurmantar can be said in any way however you want, what is the purpose of obtaining naam when anyone can recite anything with love and achieve the anhad shabad.

Like Neo said this is an exception to the case.

What about the Singh who was saying one of the lines wrong from Dakhni Onkar at Anadpur Sahib. Due to that he recieved a slapping from the singhs with Guru Gobind Singh Ji. This was an order from Guru Gobind Singh Ji due to reciting the shabad Guru wrongly and in turn changing the meaning.

Reciting Gurbani one should also be aware of the meanings when they are recited. Waheguru mantar took 36 jugs to create according tot he dasam granth and for the Guru's to give to us but people think it has no meaning and you can recite it any way they want.

If you can recite waheguru shabad in any way you want in about 50 years we will see varients like wahoguru, wehguru, wagu, will these all be excepted.

As long as one has sharda and prem can they do paath of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji without haveing a good grasp of Gurmukhi and say anything? Will you accept this at an akhand or sahaj paath? If it is someone reciting bani wrong then will not correct them or just leave them be as they might also be of a great avastha!

Simple questions that all? If you can accept all this was it not a waste of time for Guru Gobind Singh Ji to spend around 9 months on giving the meaings of the Guru Granth Sahib to all for the future generations, when obviously it does not matter.

If Guru sahib were willing to slap some one as punishment for reciting one word wrong in Dakhni Onkar even though he did so with love then what will happen to those who recite the Gurus incantation wrong???

[Aparadhee]

i am not saying bani should not be read shudh. it is maharajs apaar kirpa if a person can read shudh bani and they will receive fruit for that.

i agree with what you mean about gurmantr changing over time. my personal view is if you want to jap waheguru in kirtan then do it as waheguru. however but now you imply that doing simran of waheguru using the jugti that the punj pyaareh have given you is wrong. is saas saas simran wrong?

waheguru is written how its written and we shouldnt change that, bhai gurdas ji has told us what the gurmantr is. but whos to say maharaj didnt give us a jugti or technique of japping it?

indeed if maharaj did give us a jugti for japping gurmantr then how can we disclaim this by saying these gursikhs are planting the seed wrongly.

yh mahraj may have punished a gursikh for not doing shudh bani, but then why hasnt maharaj slapped every gursikh that does jap naam in this way using this very jugti, but why instead do they feel ras. is every gursikh who reaches avastha of swas swas simran japping naam wrong?or should we walk around saying waheguru waheguru all the time? with your reasoning thats how we should do it.

what im trying to get at is, is it not possible that maharaj has given us a jugti, and if so then does it matter if waheguru is said as its written or should we use this jugti instead.

i agree that when saying or singing gurmantr in sangat it should be said waheguru, as its written, but then maharaj gives hukam of doing simran swas swas with every breathe. is it not possible that maharaj could have given us a jugti to help us in grishti jeevan, thse are just my thoughts.

"so if the gurmantar can be said in any way however you want, what is the purpose of obtaining naam when anyone can recite anything with love and achieve the anhad shabad"

as i said before i am not saying gurmantr can be japped anyway. all im sayign is maybe maharaj gave us a technique. is it a possiblity?

so if someone reads bhai gurdas jis vaars and stumbles across the gurmantr and starts japping it does that mean they have obtained gurmantr? no need to go to amrit sanchar? whats the point of taking amrit if you are revealed gurmantr in bani already. is it not possible that maharaj will teach you how to jap first, give you a jugti. these are just my thoughts

i got a feeling this is going to turn in to a naam dridh thread, i have no desire for it to do so. but kam1825 u made some points and im just giving you my measly opinions

bhul chuk maaf

[sant mat]

Bhausarida is not the only one who is guilty of changing the message. I have relatives who follow the Nanaksar Sect and they have Sukhmani Sahib Gutkas, which have been tampered by the Nanaksar Sect.

I can not remember exactly but, I think between each Asthpadi they have added something. Maybe some of the enlightened ones here can shed some light on this.

[N30S1NGH]

Bhausarida is not the only one who is guilty of changing the message. I have relatives who follow the Nanaksar Sect and they have Sukhmani Sahib Gutkas, which have been tampered by the Nanaksar Sect.

I can not remember exactly but, I think between each Asthpadi they have added something. Maybe some of the enlightened ones here can shed some light on this.

Nanaksar havent tampered anything in sri guru granth sahib ji saroop. In the sukhmani sahib gutkas they added sukhmani sukh amrit prab naam bhagat jannie kai man visram after every ashtpadi, they didnt added anything from their writings its from the gurbani since its done after every ashtpadi it doesnt break the measures within each ashtpadis*. This way is called sampat patt its praticised by many puratan samparda's either in form of sri sampat patt and in form of sukhmani sahib.

*just like in our evening patt- rehras sahib it does not break the measures to include chaupi sahib and anand sahib with so dar rehras patt).

hope that helps.

[immortal57]

BYrau mhlw 5 ]

Bhairao, Fifth Mehla:

nwmu lYq mnu prgtu BieAw ]

Repeating the Naam, the Name of the Lord, the mortal is exalted and glorified.

nwmu lYq pwpu qn qy gieAw ]

Repeating the Naam, sin is banished from the body.

nwmu lYq sgl purbwieAw ]

Repeating the Naam, all festivals are celebrated.

nwmu lYq ATsiT mjnwieAw ]1]

Repeating the Naam, one is cleansed at the sixty-eight sacred shrines. ||1||

qIrQu hmrw hir ko nwmu ]

My sacred shrine of pilgrimage is the Name of the Lord.

guir aupdyisAw qqu igAwnu ]1] rhwau ]

The Guru has instructed me in the true essence of spiritual wisdom. ||1||Pause||

nwmu lYq duKu dUir prwnw ]

Repeating the Naam, the mortal's pains are taken away.

nwmu lYq Aiq mUV suigAwnw ]

Repeating the Naam, the most ignorant people become spiritual teachers.

nwmu lYq prgit aujIAwrw ]

Repeating the Naam, the Divine Light blazes forth.

nwmu lYq Cuty jMjwrw ]2]

Repeating the Naam, one's bonds are broken. ||2||

nwmu lYq jmu nyiV n AwvY ]

Repeating the Naam, the Messenger of Death does not draw near.

nwmu lYq drgh suKu pwvY ]

Repeating the Naam, one finds peace in the Court of the Lord.

nwmu lYq pRBu khY swbwis ]

Repeating the Naam, God gives His Approval.

nwmu hmwrI swcI rwis ]3]

The Naam is my true wealth. ||3||

guir aupdysu kihE iehu swru ]

The Guru has instructed me in these sublime teachings.

hir kIriq mn nwmu ADwru ]

The Kirtan of the Lord's Praises and the Naam are the Support of the mind.

nwnk auDry nwm punhcwr ]

Nanak is saved through the atonement of the Naam.

Avir krm lokh pqIAwr ]4]12]25]

Other actions are just to please and appease the people. ||4||12||25||