Applying The Word "sh"

[singh di fauj]

you will not even see adak in SGGS Ji...though the sounds are thr.. u won't see the symbol..

[OhTwadi]

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[singh di fauj]

We are talking about pere bindi that makes sh sound ... whr do u see it... <_<

thr r lots of bindis above the line that make 'n' sound...

[OhTwadi]

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[Guest shhh-ut up]

"How should we know which Ustaad to learn from since there are so many difference? The reasoning of "find a school with a lineage back to Guru Sahibs times" does not seem adequate for me, since firstly there are many controversies on lineage and on historical examination many are found to be inaccurate. Secondly, how can we be sure that the correct Gyaan has been preserved from generation to generation, since Ustaads are only human, looking through the history of Sikhi although it was started by Guru Nanak Dev Ji, the principles the majority of the "Sikh" population hold today are massively different to what were held in Guru Sahib's time. The Masands themselves were a group started by Guru Sahib, yet they became corrupt and lost their purpose, and were thus removed from the Panth. "

The linage of taksaal is not inaccurate, it isnt a linage of your average joe, they where brahmgianis, each and every one. it is only a brahm giani that could have the ability to run such a school. each jathedar has learnt from previous jatherdars. i tell you what. have santhiya of a learned singh thats bin taught from taksaal and youl c for yourself

[AK-47]

The difference is this, on one hand you have an individual who with his own mind decides how to read gurbani. He applies his own logic and decides what is right or wrong. He may be correct in some places and mistaken on others.

On the other hand you have places like the taksals, here there is not one person on his own making the decisions. As I have said previously, you have many many singhs, maybe hundreds who are studying the shabad, generation after generation. Debates over where the pauses go, where the bindis and aunkars go etc have taken place generation after generation. People who disagree with these taksals will debate with them and discuss these differences with them. Most of the time the taksals will tell you of the different schools of thought when reading certain shabads and then explain why they think their way is correct over the others etc. Here you have in depth study, khoj and abhiyaas of the shabads.

Also the findings and teachings of ustaads are passed down from one ustaad to another. Some of the pothis they use will be very very old and are still used today in order to teach.

For most people it makes sense to study from somewhere where it is not just one persons opinion or belief, but lifetimes of study, research and kamai. These days we have people all over the place stating where they think pauses etc should according to their own mat. But before making up their minds, people should go to the univertsity and ask the reasearchers and teachers what they think. Nobody will snap ur head off for asking a question. But ask,dont just assume what ur uncle at the gurdwara said is correct.

Whether people agree or disagree, the knowledge of santhia is kept with the taksals, purely through the fact that this is what they were made for. The nihang singhs still to this day come to taksal to learn their gurbani. They learn both guru granth sahib ji and guru dasam granth sahib ji from the taksals. The fact that all native students are also taught FIRST from larviaar saroops is another unique factor. Again this is larivaar saroops of guru granth sahib ji and guru dasam granth sahib ji. where else on the planet will you get this giaan?

And for people who say it doesnt matter what the shabad is as long as you understand it ... thats a very lazy attitude. You can either do the seva properly or not properly. By saying it doesnt matter you may still be showing your pyaar, but to take it further would be to make sure you are getting it 100% complete (whichever school of thought u use to read the shabad). Guru sahib himself has emphasised the importance of reading gurbani properly via a number of sakhis, so please do not dismiss this issue as a non-important one.

Maybe we can never get it 100% correct, but its better to try rather than not try at all.

[Guest Guest]

AK-47 I agree with your post, this is a different point of view you have presented however to other posts where people have used the "it is my way or the highway" approach", claiming punishments on Ustaads/Paathis if they aren't conforming to what others believe to be the correct pronounciation. No doubt we should take into account what the various schools of thought say but the fact that there is such massive variation between them, with much Khoj being done from the various sides, suggest to me that it is ridiculous to claim one particular school of thought as being the objectively "right" one, unless of course you are Guru Sahib <_< .

[khalistan_zindabaad]

The difference is this, on one hand you have an individual who with his own mind decides how to read gurbani. He applies his own logic and decides what is right or wrong. He may be correct in some places and mistaken on others.

On the other hand you have places like the taksals, here there is not one person on his own making the decisions. As I have said previously, you have many many singhs, maybe hundreds who are studying the shabad, generation after generation. Debates over where the pauses go, where the bindis and aunkars go etc have taken place generation after generation. People who disagree with these taksals will debate with them and discuss these differences with them. Most of the time the taksals will tell you of the different schools of thought when reading certain shabads and then explain why they think their way is correct over the others etc. Here you have in depth study, khoj and abhiyaas of the shabads.

Also the findings and teachings of ustaads are passed down from one ustaad to another. Some of the pothis they use will be very very old and are still used today in order to teach.

For most people it makes sense to study from somewhere where it is not just one persons opinion or belief, but lifetimes of study, research and kamai. These days we have people all over the place stating where they think pauses etc should according to their own mat. But before making up their minds, people should go to the univertsity and ask the reasearchers and teachers what they think. Nobody will snap ur head off for asking a question. But ask,dont just assume what ur uncle at the gurdwara said is correct.

Whether people agree or disagree, the knowledge of santhia is kept with the taksals, purely through the fact that this is what they were made for. The nihang singhs still to this day come to taksal to learn their gurbani. They learn both guru granth sahib ji and guru dasam granth sahib ji from the taksals. The fact that all native students are also taught FIRST from larviaar saroops is another unique factor. Again this is larivaar saroops of guru granth sahib ji and guru dasam granth sahib ji. where else on the planet will you get this giaan?

And for people who say it doesnt matter what the shabad is as long as you understand it ... thats a very lazy attitude. You can either do the seva properly or not properly. By saying it doesnt matter you may still be showing your pyaar, but to take it further would be to make sure you are getting it 100% complete (whichever school of thought u use to read the shabad). Guru sahib himself has emphasised the importance of reading gurbani properly via a number of sakhis, so please do not dismiss this issue as a non-important one.

Maybe we can never get it 100% correct, but its better to try rather than not try at all.

nice post.

[Aparadhee]

jo mwgih Twkur Apuny qy soeI soeI dyvY ]

jo maagehi t(h)aakur apunae thae soee soee dhaevai ||

Whatever I ask for from my Lord and Master, he gives that to me

pretty sure sant gurbachan singh ji used to pronounce maageh as maangeh, is that not adding to gurbani then just like adding a bindi? if im wrong then i accept it, but just interested to know whether this was indeed the case.

either way maageh isnt a word it makes sense if its maangeh

wahegurooo

[Singh132]

Let's take one example. The title of Zafarnamah is written, if read exactly "Jaffernameh". No one pronounces it like this. The Bindis in the feet of akhars were read in automatically just like for example the letter 'c' in English can be pronounced hard like "Car" or soft like "Cease". The letter is the same but sounds are two.

In the same way, akhars like Sussa has "sh" and "s" sounds. Jujja has "zzz" and "jjjj" sounds. The reader needs to add it in where it is needed.

Going back to the original example of "Jaffernameh", because we know that this is a Farsi word, the Jujja is pronounced "Z" and the "haha" at the end is pronounced like a kunna. We see that in Gurbani also in words like "Dargah" and "Panah" and "Allah". People that don't know these rules are actually reading Gurbani a-shudh (funny how you can't say "shudh" without a bindi in the feet). You hear people saying "Alleh" instead of Allah, etc.

I'm a little concerned to see where Gurbani uchaaran is going these days though. The mentality that no bindis can be pronounced and that there is no 'reading in' of sounds is a new one that is not borne out by old Gurmukhi. You HAVE to read certain sounds into Gurmukhi otherwise it's not proper. But nowadays, we have some usually very young people saying it's a paap to do it and words and names in our history like Sri Guru Harkrishan Sahib and Sahibzada Zoravar Singh are even being altered to push this line of thought.

The whole purpose of getting Santhiya is to know where to put the sounds. If you just "read it as it appears" then a lot of Santhiya wouldn't be necessary. It is essential to get Santhiya from Gursikhs to be able to correctly pronounce Gurbani.

One final example I'll give. Shah Mohammed who wrote "Jangnama", if you read the old Gurmukhi text of it, his name appears as "Saah" Mohammed. There is no bindi under the Sussa. But we all know his name was Shaah Mohammed. You must pronounce the bindi otherwise it's not the correct pronunciation.

You can't have "shudh" without the bindi ! <_<