Bhram Gyani

[Babbar Shere]

it seems band u never have anything useful to say, so many shankas, soo many questions. . . the term worship is incorrect. . .doing stakaar of, seva. . .etc is a better term. . .if you know that sum1 has reached the greatest avastha, im sure even u wud even do satkaar and seva of them. . .

<_< I had a question Uncle!! so i asked. If you have a problem with me asking questions thn you are in the same boat as my parents.

Thank you for replying in the thread. If while typing a response to my question your tender fingers were bruised i really apologise for asking questions. Wish i could apply some ointment and ask a question or two while doing that.

omg guys, thats why were here, to ask questions right? ask as many as you want bro.

as long as you understand, and get the answer your looking for bro.

[OhTwadi]

.

[JustME]

^^ I completely understand what you are saying. Going by that should we worship everyone because waheguru is in everyone not just bhramgyanis?

i see where u coming from but how do u define "worship"? the term worship can mean different things to different people.................if we apply the "bramanised" thought to worship where you do not see waheguru as the creater of the object u worship they worshipping becomes a pointless ritual................no the question again higlights the question of ur avasta...........we need to eradicate the ego from our minds that sees a a braimgyani as a mere man.................when we remove the ego and 5 vices from our jeevans our thinking and thoughts are in tune with waheguru and he will reveal himself.............and why would u not want the charan dhor of such an enlightened soul?

but its our egos and pride thats blocks the thinking process where we start differencing between braimgyani and waheguru EVEN though bani states many times that there is no difference between the spiritual awakened and waheguru...........lol i did arandom shabd on STTM while typingthis reply and this is what came out so ill conclude this reply here <_< : -

This Shabad is by Bhagat Kabeer Ji in Raag Soohee on Pannaa 793

sUhI lilq kbIr jIau ]

soohee lalith kabeer jeeo ||

Soohee, Lalit, Kabeer Jee:

eyku kotu pMc iskdwrw pMcy mwgih hwlw ]

eaek kott pa(n)ch sikadhaaraa pa(n)chae maagehi haalaa ||

In the one fortress of the body, there are five rulers, and all five demand payment of taxes.

ijmI nwhI mY iksI kI boeI AYsw dynu duKwlw ]1]

jimee naahee mai kisee kee boee aisaa dhaen dhukhaalaa ||1||

I have not farmed anyone's land, so such payment is difficult for me to pay. ||1||

hir ky logw mo kau nIiq fsY ptvwrI ]

har kae logaa mo ko neeth ddasai pattavaaree ||

O people of the Lord, the tax-collector is constantly torturing me!

aUpir Bujw kir mY gur pih pukwirAw iqin hau lIAw aubwrI ]1] rhwau ]

oopar bhujaa kar mai gur pehi pukaariaa thin ho leeaa oubaaree ||1|| rehaao ||

Raising my arms up, I complained to my Guru, and He has saved me. ||1||Pause||

nau fwfI ds muMsP Dwvih reIAiq bsn n dyhI ]

no ddaaddee dhas mu(n)saf dhhaavehi reeath basan n dhaehee ||

The nine tax-assessors and the ten magistrates go out; they do not allow their subjects to live in peace.

forI pUrI mwpih nwhI bhu ibstwlw lyhI ]2]

ddoree pooree maapehi naahee bahu bisattaalaa laehee ||2||

They do not measure with a full tape, and they take huge amounts in bribes. ||2||

bhqir Gr ieku purKu smwieAw auin dIAw nwmu ilKweI ]

behathar ghar eik purakh samaaeiaa oun dheeaa naam likhaaee ||

The One Lord is contained in the seventy-two chambers of the body, and He has written off my account.

Drm rwie kw dPqru soiDAw bwkI irjm n kweI ]3]

dhharam raae kaa dhafathar sodhhiaa baakee rijam n kaaee ||3||

The records of the Righteous Judge of Dharma have been searched, and I owe absolutely nothing. ||3||

sMqw kau miq koeI inMdhu sMq rwmu hY eykuo ]

sa(n)thaa ko math koee ni(n)dhahu sa(n)th raam hai eaekuo ||

Let no one slander the Saints, because the Saints and the Lord are as one.

khu kbIr mY so guru pwieAw jw kw nwau ibbykuo ]4]5]

kahu kabeer mai so gur paaeiaa jaa kaa naao bibaekuo ||4||5||

Says Kabeer, I have found that Guru, whose Name is Clear Understanding. ||4||5||

[B4ND4]

^^We are just going in circles now. I respect your views but unfortunately i don't agree with you.

Creator and creation are one but at the same time they are two different entities. Creator is here forever, creation is bound to finish. No where in my posts have i dissed bhramgyanis(i don't really know who gave us the right to call someone a bhramgyani.. i am sure you know what bani says about that.)

Bhramgyani is one with Waheguru but he/she is not Waheguru. If he/she is then the various cults that have been worshippping human gurus are not wrong. Those Gurus of theirs are Waheguru for them. If that is the case then Akal Takth is outrightly wrong in kicking them out of the panth.

If a bhramgyani was Waheguru he would stay here forever but he doesn't he leaves this world under His command. The problem lies how we interpret bani. As i said before no doubt an enlightned soul is ik-mik with the jot but he/she isn't the jot. I completely disagree on the worshipping part.

The questions i have asked have not been answered. It will really help if the questions are answered..

1. Do you see a difference between worshipping and respecting??

If not

1. Do you worship a bhramgyani when he dies??

2. Who/what makes a bhramgyani?? Where/Who is the source for their gyan??

3. khalistan_zindabaad said something about doing a matha tek to a bhramgyani in hajoori of Sri Guru Granth Sahib is a maha paap. How/Why is it a maha paap if they are ONE??

I also suggest we read this thread again and see what everyone else has said to understand the wider picture. Worshipping in my dictionary means ustat of akal purkah.

Respect your views. Will always do but my Guru doesn't allow me to worship anyone other then Akal Purakh. You want to call that ego/pride. I don't have a problem with that either.

Guru Ji di bachi..jeondi reh <_<

[khalistan_zindabaad]

A brahmginai is akal purkh, one should worship the qualities of a brahm ginai but not the actual physical body, the physical body will have to leave someday, but the soul will remain. therefore one should respect the gursikh who is at the avastha as it it written in guru jee. maharaj even says to go kurbaan for such souls.

worship and respect are two different things.

wrt mahta tekhing, i mentioned what someone told me that sant jee mentions it in katha.

Why, when a student learns everything from there teacher. .and obtains all the teachers knowlege, if someone asks a open question it is wrong for the student to answer in the presence of his master, it dsnt give satkaar to the master.

hence with guru jees kirpa one may obtain an avastha, however infront of guru jee that gursikh will always show humbleness and show satkaar as its from maharaj that they obtained everything..

carry on debating and finding errors in my posts etc. this is probably my last post on this topic. cant be bothered.

[JustME]

^^We are just going in circles now. I respect your views but unfortunately i don't agree with you.

Aaaaaw my sweet beatiful teji veer this is why i love having vichaar sessions with you...........you put forward very valid and honest arguments..............veer jee im a murakh....anything i have expressed in this thread is simply ramblings of this useless murakh, i know nothing, im illitierate so plz dont take anything i say as anything worth keeping you ur heart........... <_<

but hey maybe this will be a learning experience........thats wot big brothers are for eh?....... :wubc:

Creator and creation are one but at the same time they are two different entities. Creator is here forever, creation is bound to finish.

This Shabad is by Bhagat Kabeer Ji in Raag Prabhaatee on Pannaa 1349

pRBwqI ]

prabhaathee ||

Prabhaatee:

Avil Alh nUru aupwieAw kudriq ky sB bMdy ]

aval aleh noor oupaaeiaa kudharath kae sabh ba(n)dhae ||

First, Allah created the Light; then, by His Creative Power, He made all mortal beings.

eyk nUr qy sBu jgu aupijAw kaun Bly ko mMdy ]1]

eaek noor thae sabh jag oupajiaa koun bhalae ko ma(n)dhae ||1||

From the One Light, the entire universe welled up. So who is good, and who is bad? ||1||

logw Brim n BUlhu BweI ]

logaa bharam n bhoolahu bhaaee ||

O people, O Siblings of Destiny, do not wander deluded by doubt.

Kwilku Klk Klk mih Kwilku pUir rihE sRb TWeI ]1] rhwau ]

khaalik khalak khalak mehi khaalik poor rehiou srab t(h)aa(n)ee ||1|| rehaao ||

The Creation is in the Creator, and the Creator is in the Creation, totally pervading and permeating all places. ||1||Pause||

mwtI eyk Anyk BWiq kir swjI swjnhwrY ]

maattee eaek anaek bhaa(n)th kar saajee saajanehaarai ||

The clay is the same, but the Fashioner has fashioned it in various ways.

nw kCu poc mwtI ky BWfy nw kCu poc kuMBwrY ]2]

naa kashh poch maattee kae bhaa(n)ddae naa kashh poch ku(n)bhaarai ||2||

There is nothing wrong with the pot of clay - there is nothing wrong with the Potter. ||2||

sB mih scw eyko soeI iqs kw kIAw sBu kCu hoeI ]

sabh mehi sachaa eaeko soee this kaa keeaa sabh kashh hoee ||

The One True Lord abides in all; by His making, everything is made.

hukmu pCwnY su eyko jwnY bMdw khIAY soeI ]3]

hukam pashhaanai s eaeko jaanai ba(n)dhaa keheeai soee ||3||

Whoever realizes the Hukam of His Command, knows the One Lord. He alone is said to be the Lord's slave. ||3||

yes i totally agree the creation will finish but the "source" will not and that source is enshrined within all of us.............but bani also tells us to look beyond this world and anything that we see in front of us is perishable.........as is the physical shell on man/braingyani............his shell may end but His atma is waheguru and that is immortal..........how else does the soul come into re-incarnation? the soul that is enshrined in EVERY being is immortal and the man/waheguru is not immortal the atma is and that is Waheguru...........

Bhramgyani is one with Waheguru but he/she is not Waheguru. If he/she is then the various cults that have been worshippping human gurus are not wrong. Those Gurus of theirs are Waheguru for them. If that is the case then Akal Takth is outrightly wrong in kicking them out of the panth.

forgive me veer jee but i lack the understanding of ur meaning here......... is someone is one with waheguru how can they be seperate?

the cult worshipping and human gurus are two totally seperate issues veer jee........ was Guru Nanak Dev Jee not a Guru in human Form?? He too had to leave this world and he was waheguru's roop himself.......

If a bhramgyani was Waheguru he would stay here forever but he doesn't he leaves this world under His command. The problem lies how we interpret bani. As i said before no doubt an enlightned soul is ik-mik with the jot but he/she isn't the jot. I completely disagree on the worshipping part.

ur totally missing the concept of the braimgyani.............a braimgyani is waheguru in sargun saroop and he leading us onto the right path he comes to teach us a lesson and when the lesson is taught, regardless of whether we follow it...........he returns to nirgun saroop...........and anything else well who are we to argue about the way waheguru has made this world..................It is HIS creation and we are clays puppetts whose purpose in life is to follow his hukam..............

The questions i have asked have not been answered. It will really help if the questions are answered..

1. Do you see a difference between worshipping and respecting??

yeah this is a big difference.........worshiping is submitting to the will of Akal Purkh and respecting is hold something back.............."respect" is like saying i believe BUT and this "BUT", in my worthless opinion is Ego

If not

1. Do you worship a bhramgyani when he dies??

ur asking very deep questions here and its not in my capability to answer but the way i see it is...............anything that enters this world, has to leave....IK-OAN KAR -the is only ONE GOD and His action are unique but does waheguru not desend of Earth to save mankind?..............................and kaljug is at its worst and every so often waheguru decends this janjaal in sargun saroop to guide back on to the right path...........when he leaves.........its only his physical body that has died his atma is stilll with us in the teachings they leave............now where does the question of worshipping come into this.............its all about LOVE............call it worship, call it respect, but the underlying source of both should be LOVE...........

2. Who/what makes a bhramgyani?? Where/Who is the source for their gyan??

waheguru is Bhraimgyani and the source of EVERYTHING, not just braimgyani is Waheguru

3. khalistan_zindabaad said something about doing a matha tek to a bhramgyani in hajoori of Sri Guru Granth Sahib is a maha paap. How/Why is it a maha paap if they are ONE??

i no nothing about akal takht hukams and what constitutes MAHA PAAP, this is a question you would have to ask the akal thakt themselves....

I also suggest we read this thread again and see what everyone else has said to understand the wider picture. Worshipping in my dictionary means ustat of akal purkah.

so what about Sant Baba Isher Singh Jee, Sant Baba Harnam Singh Jee, Sant Baba Deep Singh Jee....................why were they sent here and what category do they fall into? Are they not roops of waheguru? and all those people who bowed down to these great mahpurkhs? have they sinned? will waheguru see them as bad people?

see? that ur concept of worshipping...............not mine so straight away our views will differ :D ....................to me worshipping................is SEVA.......... what Guru Amar Dass did for Guru Angad Dev Jee.......my avatar says it all :umm: ..........wot Bhai Lehna did for Guru Nanak..........they saw waheguru in the Guru and hence they merged into each other yet Bhai Bala and Bhai Mardana spend contless years with Guru Jee and failed to see waheguru in Guru Jee...................

This Shabad is by Guru Arjan Dev Ji in Raag Gauree on Pannaa 214

rwgu gOVI mwlvw mhlw 5

raag gaarree maalavaa mehalaa 5

Raag Gauree Maalwaa, Fifth Mehla:

<> siqgur pRswid ]

ik oa(n)kaar sathigur prasaadh ||

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

hir nwmu lyhu mIqw lyhu AwgY ibKm pMQu BYAwn ]1] rhwau ]

har naam laehu meethaa laehu aagai bikham pa(n)thh bhaiaan ||1|| rehaao ||

Chant the Lord's Name; O my friend, chant it. Hereafter, the path is terrifying and treacherous. ||1||Pause||

syvq syvq sdw syiv qyrY sMig bsqu hY kwlu ]

saevath saevath sadhaa saev thaerai sa(n)g basath hai kaal ||

Serve, serve, forever serve the Lord. Death hangs over your head.

kir syvw qUM swD kI ho kwtIAY jm jwlu ]1]

kar saevaa thoo saadhh kee ho kaatteeai jam jaal ||1||

Do seva, selfless service, for the Holy Saints, and the noose of Death shall be cut away. ||1||

hom jg qIrQ kIey ibic haumY bDy ibkwr ]

hom jag theerathh keeeae bich houmai badhhae bikaar ||

You may make burnt offerings, sacrificial feasts and pilgrimages to sacred shrines in egotism, but your corruption only increases.

nrku surgu duie BuMcnw hoie bhuir bhuir Avqwr ]2]

narak surag dhue bhu(n)chanaa hoe bahur bahur avathaar ||2||

You are subject to both heaven and hell, and you are reincarnated over and over again. ||2||

Respect your views. Will always do but my Guru doesn't allow me to worship anyone other then Akal Purakh. You want to call that ego/pride. I don't have a problem with that either.

Niether does mine but heres lies our differences in perception on what/where we percieve as waheguru :D

U? PRIDE/EGO? NEVER!!!! :D

If i may i also have a question.......................

Do you think there was a difference between Waheguru and Guru Nanak?

Guru Ji di bachi..jeondi reh

Rab Rakha Mereh Pyaareh Seh Veera :D

[JustME]

A brahmginai is akal purkh, one should worship the qualities of a brahm ginai but not the actual physical body, the physical body will have to leave someday, but the soul will remain. therefore one should respect the gursikh who is at the avastha as it it written in guru jee. maharaj even says to go kurbaan for such souls.

worship and respect are two different things.

wrt mahta tekhing, i mentioned what someone told me that sant jee mentions it in katha.

Why, when a student learns everything from there teacher. .and obtains all the teachers knowlege, if someone asks a open question it is wrong for the student to answer in the presence of his master, it dsnt give satkaar to the master.

hence with guru jees kirpa one may obtain an avastha, however infront of guru jee that gursikh will always show humbleness and show satkaar as its from maharaj that they obtained everything..

carry on debating and finding errors in my posts etc. this is probably my last post on this topic. cant be bothered.

that is, in short what i was trying to say i know i ramble and never get to the point

FANTASTIC RESPONSE VEER JEE <_<

[JustME]

This Shabad is by Bhagat Ravi Daas Ji in Raag Aasaa on Pannaa 486

Awsw ]

aasaa ||

Aasaa:

sMq quJI qnu sMgiq pRwn ]

sa(n)th thujhee than sa(n)gath praan ||

Your Saints are Your body, and their company is Your breath of life.

siqgur igAwn jwnY sMq dyvw dyv ]1]

sathigur giaan jaanai sa(n)th dhaevaa dhaev ||1||

By the True Guru-given spiritual wisdom, I know the Saints as the gods of gods. ||1||

sMq cI sMgiq sMq kQw rsu ] sMq pRym mwJY dIjY dyvw dyv ]1] rhwau ]

sa(n)th chee sa(n)gath sa(n)th kathhaa ras || sa(n)th praem maajhai dheejai dhaevaa dhaev ||1|| rehaao ||

O Lord, God of gods, grant me the Society of the Saints, the sublime essence of the Saints' conversation, and the Love of the Saints. ||1||Pause||

sMq Awcrx sMq co mwrgu sMq c ElHg ElHgxI ]2]

sa(n)th aacharan sa(n)th cho maarag sa(n)th ch oulhag oulhaganee ||2||

The Character of the Saints, the lifestyle of the Saints, and the service of the servant of the Saints. ||2|

Aaur iek mwgau Bgiq icMqwmix ]

aour eik maago bhagath chi(n)thaaman ||

I ask for these, and for one thing more - devotional worship, which shall fulfill my desires

jxI lKwvhu AsMq pwpI six ]3]

janee lakhaavahu asa(n)th paapee san ||3||

Do not show me the wicked sinners. ||3||

rivdwsu BxY jo jwxY so jwxu ]

ravidhaas bhanai jo jaanai so jaan ||

Says Ravi Daas, he alone is wise, who knows this:

sMq Anµqih AMqru nwhI ]4]2]

sa(n)th ana(n)thehi a(n)thar naahee ||4||2|

there is no difference between the Saints and the Infinite Lord. ||4||2||

[OhTwadi]

.

[besoft]

bRhm igAwnI kw kiQAw n jwie ADwK´ru ] (273-15, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)

1.The God-conscious being cannot be described in words.

bRhm igAwnI srb kw Twkuru ] (273-15, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)

2.The God-conscious being is the Lord and Master of all.

bRhm igAwnI kI imiq kaunu bKwnY ] (273-15, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)

3.Who can describe the limits of the God-conscious being?

bRhm igAwnI kw AMqu n pwru ] (273-16, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)

4.The God-conscious being has no end or limitation.

bRhm igAwnI sB isRsit kw krqw ] (273-17, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)

5.The God-conscious being is the Creator of all the world.

bRhm igAwnI pUrn purKu ibDwqw ] (273-18, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)

The God-conscious being is the Perfect Supreme Being, who orchestrates all.

bRhm igAwnI AnwQ kw nwQu ] (273-19, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)

The God-conscious being is the helper of the helpless.

bRhm igAwnI kw sB aUpir hwQu ] (273-19, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)

The God-conscious being extends his hand to all.

bRhm igAwnI kw sgl Akwru ] (273-19, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)

The God-conscious being owns the entire creation.

bRhm igAwnI Awip inrMkwru ] (274-1, gauVI suKmnI, mÚ 5)

The God-conscious being is himself the Formless Lord.

******************************************************************

Looking at the above panktis 1,2,3 ,4 and 5 and the subsequent tuks that appear in Sukhmani sahib.

1.The God-conscious being cannot be described in words. This is the same quality as Nirankaar. Hence for all practicla purpose one can say that Brahmgyani is either HE Himself or someone who is equal to HIM.

2.The God-conscious being is the Lord and Master of all.

This also indicates that Brahmgyani is the lord and Master of all.Now let us look at the next 'tuk'.

3.Who can describe the limits of the God-conscious being?

Meaning.; no one can describe the limits of Brahmgyani. This is the attribute of the God only.[jap ji sahib ji].Further he is unfathomable and limitless and unknowable.

4.The God-conscious being has no end or limitation.

This attributes is also very much the same as of the Creator/The primal Lord.Thus Brahmgyani is none but the Akaal Purukh HIMSElf.

5.The God-conscious being is the Creator of all the world.

This tuk also states in a very clear manner that Brahmgyani is the creator HIMself.

The next few lines also suggests that Brahmgyani is HIMself the Lord.At other place we have a reference that 'Brajmgyani ko Khojay mashwar[shiva].

In nut shell Guru ji has stated that Brahmgyani is Lord HIMself.

The simple question that I pose to the sangat for contemplation is that Is guru ji giving as another name of akaal Purukh as Brahmgyani or it has some other meaning as wel.The eulogisation of the Creator is found in the jap ji sahib wherein the conversation of Nakak sahib ji and the Sidhas is recorded and is put in the verses. If Brahmgyani is other than Lord then the language has been slightly diffeent.Hence it is as per my limited budhi is the GOd himself. At other place in the same ashtpadi it is ststaed that only that can become Brahmgyani on whom GOd so pleases.

Thus we have two clear situations that Brahmgyani is someone who is not the Lord and secondly where the Brajmgyani appears to be The lord.It is the reference to the context that will decide as to Brahmgyani is below the lord or is equal to the Lord.