Concept of God in Islam and Sikhi discussion!

[Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa]

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

Please please share your views and discuss Sikhi's beautiful concept of the nature of Vaheguru at the following:

http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...opic.ppa?t=3748

Humble benti to all the learned enlightened Gurmukh's here to take time out and give us the Sikhi perspective which will benefit ManMukhs like myself to learn and be able to feel confident in our explanations of Vaheguru. I urge everyone to please do us the Sewa of contributing.

Raj Karega Khalsa!

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

[Guest mehtab]

BUMP

[JSingh]

rochak singha i love u man good job!

I think there was a post on this forum about categorizing subjects and try to find what Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji says on those subjects. I think we spend tooo much time fighting among ourselves and therefore, we waste our time for nothing. Instread, we could spend that time to prepare ourselves and educate ourselves what our religion teaches us so that when another Tawheed comes and starts an argument or discussion with us on any subject, we have something prepared.

bhul chuk di khima....

[curious_man]

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

i want anyone of u ...plzz post this reply to mr.tawheed....

well in general wht i feel is that in the very beginning of human life there were many religions , all tribal, everyone started to beleive in sun , stones , water etc, as God, then when it was all at its height maybe then JUDAISM was born(i dont know much about its origin) ...people started worshipping the real God...

but after many centuries... when people again lost faith..started idol worship...became cruel..started thinking that their religion should overtake others...CHRISTIANITY was born...again spreAding the SAME message ... to different people in a different way.......by sending a prophet......

everything was well.........then after some time people again lost faith in God....idol worship again started....people lost their senses and forcefully fought for superiority of their religions ..... thus God sent another prophet... and ISLAM...begin......

on the other hand in east...i.e. India.. when Hinduism was too much deeply affected by idol worship... BUDDHISM and after that JAINISM started....

Islam also taught the same message in different manner to different people of those time... and it was immensly successful...

all went well..but when islam and christianity both took forceful actions to convert people..known as Holy wars..i guess... and when there was lot of paakhand and rituals..

God sent another prophet..and SIKHISM started and spread the same message again in a different manner to the people of

those times....

to date i feel ..since its the newest ...only 5 centuries old...let it grow ..c how it will change todays world like other religions did in past ...

and nothing is like FINAL MESSENGER....srry its my feeling.... if people again get blind.. if people again started fighting for making their religion superior... when sikhs also start to do paakhands and rituals...

HE will agin send a prophet to teach HIS children ...what is right and what is wrong!!!

So what i feel, is that God is one, dont worry about the manner u worhip God, but worry whom u r worshipping, i.e., obviously dont worship stones and do rituals... but think,praise, meditate,worship, HIM!!!

no religion which beleives in one god is a matter of true or false... its the way we handleit.... handle it honestly...then its true....handle it faithfully ..then its true... handle it truthfully... then its true... handle it with love..then its true...

well i cant go into any texts and research.. lol ..cuz i m just 19 and doin engineering....no time... @ ...

anywys...i gave my feeling...

hope i didnt do anything wrong!!

NANAK JEEVTIYAA MAR REHIYE , AISA JOG KAMAIYE||

[DhadiMania]

good reply rochak

[curious_man]

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

did anyone c my above reply whic i said to send it to mr.tawheed yet...

[Ryu Hayabusa]

curious, I posted it for you , But I doubt this Talweed dude will show up again.

[Deep Singh]

the regular debate from Islamic (semetic) side is about the Nirgun - Sargun attribute of Waheguru. So i feel this should be commented, all other details are perhaps not necessary as we humans could never totaly grasp Waheguru and the Personality.

So Nirgun and Sargun as actually words from the Advaitic thought (a part of Hindu philosophy). The meanings are nirgun 'without attributes' or 'free from three values (forms/shapes) of Maya' and sargun is 'with all attributes' or 'with three values of Maya'. So as Tawheed from a empirical (wordly/logical) point-of-view these concepts intercoined would mean a apposition. and as he said 'a can not be 'not a''.

before is go on to what Gurmat says about 'Nirgun-Sargun' it may be interesting to know something about the old Indian thoughts:

Shankra, a Hindu teolog said that Ishvar(a) was a lower stage of God, which was in Nirgun "stage" [being Transcended or outside universe]. Brahm is a higher "stage" of God. Ramunaj, another teolog meant that God is pantheistic, that God lives only in nature or can be "judged" through laws of energy/physics. He said Univsere, Souls and Ishvara are three eternal principles; universe and souls are the body and qualities of Brahm. These three eternal principles of Ishvara, souls and the world consitute Brahm, which is entirely different concept of One Creator, Waheguru.

The Gurus criticized such distinct phrasing of God into stages. Teologs were as now fighting that Ishvara / Brahm were sargun / nirgun, etc.

Guru Sahib in Sukhmani Sahib says:

sloku ] srgun inrgun inrMkwr suMn s

mwDI Awip ] Awpn kIAw nwnkw Awpy hI iPir jwip ]1] {pMnw 290}

He possesses all qualities; He transcends all qualities; He is the Formless Lord. He Himself is in Primal Samaadhi.

Infact Gurus never accepted the Advaitic concepts of sargun and nirgun, for in Gurmat God is behond such limits. Waheguru is not an 'a' or 'not a'. God is eternal, infinite, without limits, but at the same time is God everywhere. Hence the Guru Sahib said 'God is both Sargun-Nirgun'

The NIRGUN (roughly translated as Transcended God) has been accepted by almost all religions...it means that God (either as The Eternal Creator or in some stage as in Hinduism) is outside creation or universe. Futher to this Gurmat says that being outside universe, God cannot be judges through our spacio-temporal logic, since God is beyond terms as space or time...as Nirgun, God was there before the creation of Universe. Creation in Sikhism is the appearence of Naam. unlike various Hindu concepts of a lower stage or higher stage God creating universe, Gurmat says the creation and governing of universe is infact a part of Naam (that can be said to be the 'word' or Will of Waheguru). When such a creation happends, things change. GOD IS STILL NIRGUN.

FORM appears, meaning things can be seen and judged by our spacio-temporal logic, now here Guru Sahib say that also in the universe (the creation or what could be seen) God exists. saying that God is only Nirgun means that GOD IS NOT in creation. then we have a place which our muslim brother calls 'not a'...BUT THERE IS NO PLACE WHERE GOD CANNOT BE! saying this would mean that God has a limit, ie that it does not enter the universe. The difference between Sikhism and some thoughts in Hinduism that could be identified as pantheism (that God is in nature) is that Sikhism also accepts the Nirgun attribute of God. For us, God is not only in nature, or what can bee seen through eyes, God is also beyond our imagination or phsyical understanding.

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br>so the difference lays in WHAT WAY CREATION HAPPENS! The Semetic though has that God created creation of nothing, but Gurmat says that God created universe out of Himself. in teologic view it is called (ex-nihilo: creation from nothin, ex-deu: creation from God). this highlights a point that Gurmat accepts a view called monism; that means 'source of all (universe, humans, organism) is from One (God)'.

People confuse this with pantheism, but infact as Sikhism accepts BOTH NIRGUN AND SARGUN concepts God in Sikhism is still monotheistic. it may be also noted that these concepts are not "Sikh" concepts because when saying this Guru Sahib is actually criticizing the Hindu teories of a seperate Nirgun and a seperate Sargun at different high or low stages....God is Sikhism is IkOnkaar. ONE CREATOR ALL-EXISTENT GOD. in essense Guru Sahib is only making clear the All-existent God by saying he is both Nirgun and Sargun at once.

[Deep Singh]

now perhaps we should get back to the mathematical version of Tawheed:

here A is said to be God (as defined in Islam) and /A is 'not-God' that means universe or things that can be studied through spacio-temporal logic.

As the irony tells itself when Tawheed is trying to solve this idea by using A and not-A, he makes a God that is with limits. he himself is saying that God has limits! In Gurmat God is beyond such limits, God can only be a union (a sum) or A and not-A...when Islam says God is A and the creation is not-A, they are saying that God is not present everywhere....

Sikhism on the other hand: GOD IS EVERYWHERE! the creation is just a playground or a teather scene where God as Nirgun is the playwrite...and in the creation itself God as Sargun is playing.....Waheguru Waheguru Waheguru!

now...our brother will ask are you saying you and me are Gods??? THIS is the trape the Islamic critic falls into....that Sikhism is some kind of Polytheism or pantheism....NO! Sikhism is only monotheistic, but accepts the idea of monism...see the difference above. Brother you and me are not Gods...but everything you can see or notice...within you or outside is God's Naam! it is Waheguru's Naam that has created this all....it is present here! maybe Tawheed should listen to the Sakhi of Bhai Kanaiya...if you don't see God around you...you don't see God at all.

just my 2 cents.bhul chuk maaf karnaa jee.

[Guest mehtab]

miyaan tawheed khan jee sikhawareness ton bhajj gaye ne

tussi sab lassi peeke saun jaao