Raags Is A Hukam From Guru Ji

[Jaspaul Singh]

Great post Alias, totally agree with you.

Just one thing, the bani tuk at the end is actually... gun gaavath man hariaa hovai ||

But yes, great points you raised in your post !

[Aparadhee]

it is said that bhai sahib bhai randhir singh ji would do kirtan how he was hearing it from sachkhand. vah! such gursikhs are few and far between.

[Degh-Tegh-Fathe]

it is said that bhai sahib bhai randhir singh ji would do kirtan how he was hearing it from sachkhand. vah! such gursikhs are few and far between.

GRRRRRRRRRRRUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!! And alias AWESOME POST:D

[Dason da Das]

Vaheguru Ji ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Ji kee Fateh!

Well done, the applicable to the topic, shabad has been quoted but the meaning may not be wots been said;

ਸਭਨਾ ਰਾਗਾਂ ਵਿਚਿ ਸੋ ਭਲਾ ਭਾਈ ਜਿਤੁ ਵਸਿਆ ਮਨਿ ਆਇ ॥

ਰਾਗੁ ਨਾਦੁ ਸਭੁ ਸਚੁ ਹੈ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਕਹੀ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥

ਰਾਗੈ ਨਾਦੈ ਬਾਹਰਾ ਇਨੀ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਨ ਬੂਝਿਆ ਜਾਇ ॥

ਨਾਨਕ ਹੁਕਮੈ ਬੂਝੈ ਤਿਨਾ ਰਾਸਿ ਹੋਇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਸੋਝੀ ਪਾਇ ॥

ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਤਿਸ ਤੇ ਹੋਇਆ ਜਿਉ ਤਿਸੈ ਦੀ ਰਜਾਇ ॥੨੪॥

God's name abiding in our mind is the best melody 'aanand ras'.

The true Lord is all the melodies (raags) and instruments (naads), his praise is ineffable.

He is beyond melodies and musical instrument (raagan te naadan ton bahra hei), with these

one cannot learn/understand his behest (hukam).

Says 4th Nanak 9Sri Guru Ramdaas Ji) that the ones who understan his commandments, they are the rightous ones as they have been blessed by the understanding from theTrue Guru.

Everything happens according to his will.

Hope this helps. Das is always at Sangat's beck and call.

[Mr T]

sqsMgiq kYsI jwxIAY ]

sathasa(n)gath kaisee jaaneeai ||

How is the Society of the Saints to be known?

ijQY eyko nwmu vKwxIAY ]

jithhai eaeko naam vakhaaneeai ||

There, the Name of the One Lord is chanted.

eyko nwmu hukmu hY nwnk siqguir dIAw buJwie jIau ]5]

eaeko naam hukam hai naanak sathigur dheeaa bujhaae jeeo ||5||

The One Name is the Lord's Command; O Nanak, the True Guru has given me this understanding. ||5||

the fundamental hukam of guroo sahib is naam japna nothing comes close to it please can someone show me where in guroo granth sahib it says you HAVE to do kirtan in raag, i have nothing against it i listen to it myself just please back up your points with gurbani as gurbani is perfect. By the way Khalistani lioness its funny how you've said we pick and choose rehats as not many people keep sarbloh bibek, do santhia of larevaar gurbani etc. Dont take it offensively but its true thought

[Khaalis]

"the fundamental hukam of guroo sahib is naam japna nothing comes close to it"

Kalyug mein kirtan pardana......?

This comment is highly childish. We always have these kids playing off simran against kirtan, it is folly to compare the 2, they are one and the same - forms of meditation and worship of Akaal - there are numerous hukum in Gurbani to practice both.

"please can someone show me where in guroo granth sahib it says you HAVE to do kirtan in raag"

Bhai Sahib, after Jap Ji Sahib, try looking in the sirlek of everything single shabd thereafter!

I see the usual tuks in Guru's message re kirtan are being mis-quoted.

Guru Ji is talking of those who mis-use raag as a forms a worship in itself or those who have become hankaari over their knowledge of raag - this does not equate to 'following the authored sirlek is optional'.

Both nimrata and prem for Guru is most important. In kirtan, shabd is pardaan, the music, saaj etc is secondary, but that does not mean it is not important.

Today we have a pick and choose society, I will wear Guru's dummalla, wear Guru's chola, wera Guru's shastar, but i will do my own type of kirtan and not Guru's, nor will I use Guru's saaj!!

Problem is personality worship. What mahapurkh did/do is their choice and its their journey. A Sikh of the Guru should always keep Guru on the highest pedestal - otherwise cults and divisions are created.

The basis of todays AKJ/Sant style kirtan started in the late 1800s when missioneries started a heavy conversion drive in Punjab using the all new introduced Austrian harmonium (because they could not match the skilled and artistic Raagis and Rababis of the Guru who used much more highly developed and beautiful saaj). They sung in Punjabi and in folk/rural style many hymns and spoke in between (kathaa). The great Sants such as Attar Singh Ji Maharaj, countered this mission by adopting their saaj (vaaja) and singing shabd in the same folk/rural style, creating katha-kirtan (dhaarna) which was adopted later by Baba Ishar Singh Ji, Baba Jarnail Singh Ji etc.

Bhai Randhir Singh Ji, Sant Sujan Singh Ji etc also adopted this simple sant style of kirtan (not dhaarna) as it was easy to learn 9didn't need years of dedicated training) and was by now popular amongst the rural communities in Punjab.

Bhai Mardana's kuls Rababis were kicked out of Darbar Sahib in the reforms, the British gifted the all new Sikh management with a golden Vaaja - and the professional and dedicated Raagis were replaced with amateur, cheaply hired kirtani quickly trained on the vaaja. 2 plus one tabla player replaced the older style kirtan jathaas which used to number at least 10 kirtani playing all types of santi saaj, jori etc.

It's hard to break away from traditions which we have been brought up on or are popular in our jathaa or our role models have used. But if one becomes a Khalsa - then they should attempt to learn Khalsa traditions as best as they can. Yesterday, times were hard (after 1850), today we have all the resources and time under the sun.

Dasmesh de parkash divaas diyaan lakh lakh vadiyan.

[Degh-Tegh-Fathe]

"the fundamental hukam of guroo sahib is naam japna nothing comes close to it"

Kalyug mein kirtan pardana......?

This comment is highly childish. We always have these kids playing off simran against kirtan, it is folly to compare the 2, they are one and the same - forms of meditation and worship of Akaal - there are numerous hukum in Gurbani to practice both.

"please can someone show me where in guroo granth sahib it says you HAVE to do kirtan in raag"

Bhai Sahib, after Jap Ji Sahib, try looking in the sirlek of everything single shabd thereafter!

I see the usual tuks in Guru's message re kirtan are being mis-quoted.

Guru Ji is talking of those who mis-use raag as a forms a worship in itself or those who have become hankaari over their knowledge of raag - this does not equate to 'following the authored sirlek is optional'.

Both nimrata and prem for Guru is most important. In kirtan, shabd is pardaan, the music, saaj etc is secondary, but that does not mean it is not important.

Today we have a pick and choose society, I will wear Guru's dummalla, wear Guru's chola, wera Guru's shastar, but i will do my own type of kirtan and not Guru's, nor will I use Guru's saaj!!

Problem is personality worship. What mahapurkh did/do is their choice and its their journey. A Sikh of the Guru should always keep Guru on the highest pedestal - otherwise cults and divisions are created.

The basis of todays AKJ/Sant style kirtan started in the late 1800s when missioneries started a heavy conversion drive in Punjab using the all new introduced Austrian harmonium (because they could not match the skilled and artistic Raagis and Rababis of the Guru who used much more highly developed and beautiful saaj). They sung in Punjabi and in folk/rural style many hymns and spoke in between (kathaa). The great Sants such as Attar Singh Ji Maharaj, countered this mission by adopting their saaj (vaaja) and singing shabd in the same folk/rural style, creating katha-kirtan (dhaarna) which was adopted later by Baba Ishar Singh Ji, Baba Jarnail Singh Ji etc.

Bhai Randhir Singh Ji, Sant Sujan Singh Ji etc also adopted this simple sant style of kirtan (not dhaarna) as it was easy to learn 9didn't need years of dedicated training) and was by now popular amongst the rural communities in Punjab.

Bhai Mardana's kuls Rababis were kicked out of Darbar Sahib in the reforms, the British gifted the all new Sikh management with a golden Vaaja - and the professional and dedicated Raagis were replaced with amateur, cheaply hired kirtani quickly trained on the vaaja. 2 plus one tabla player replaced the older style kirtan jathaas which used to number at least 10 kirtani playing all types of santi saaj, jori etc.

It's hard to break away from traditions which we have been brought up on or are popular in our jathaa or our role models have used. But if one becomes a Khalsa - then they should attempt to learn Khalsa traditions as best as they can. Yesterday, times were hard (after 1850), today we have all the resources and time under the sun.

Dasmesh de parkash divaas diyaan lakh lakh vadiyan.

I guess great sikhs like you are higher than Mahapurkhs like bhai sahib bhai jeevan singh ji and bhai sahib bhai randhir singh ji and bhai sahib bhai amolak singh ji and GREAT mahapurkhs..Also simran and kirtan are not the same because what does gurbani tell you to do? Simran, Nam jap, Raam Simmer, so how can you say that there the same when one is telling you to do the other?

[Mr T]

if naam and kirtan are the same why do you have to ask guroo sahib in the form of panj pyareh to give it to you? I was fortuneate to read some of bhai gurdas ji dee vaaran and bhai gurdas ji says on panna 6 (BGJDV)

rwg nwd lK sbd liK BwiKAw Bwau suBwau Alwey]

raag naadh lakh sabadh lakh bhaakhiaa bhaao subhaao alaaeae||

Considering the ragas and nadas only as the medium, the Gurmukh discusses and recites with Love.

gurmukhs use these instruments as a medium, im not here to put down "raag kirtan", to me kirtan true kirtan is done with prem and pyar. You can search for this on sikhitothemax.com if you dont believe me lol.

[Akritghan]

vahiguroo u bhai sahib are a better Gursikh then me

but i havent said that sikhs shouldnt keep sarabloh bibek or do santhiya in larreevaar...in fact in slough the naujawan who have had santhiya are writting gurbaanee in lareevaar themselves...u should come see instead of attacking people on forums cos u dont like their views

and im pretty sure those youth having santhiya from baldeep singh are doing the same in midlands and a few of them are writing lareevaar

so our Guroo Sahibs didnt know what they were doing did they when they made taanti saaj??

and i fully support what Khalis said....raag isnt more important then the sabad but it is important... but i guess we all know more then our Guroos hunna....

[Khaalis]

If you bothered to read my post properly instead of having a knee <banned word filter activated> reaction, you would have found that you don't actually need to disagree with me.

Re naam and kirtan, have you read Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? Do you understand the meaning of arth?

Naam and kirtan and nearly always mentioned side by side - kirtan is a form of simran and simran is a form of kirtan. Only puritans would say they cannot be one and the same - they are unique and they are enjoined - try doing vichaar instead of reading bani like a <Edited>.

ਜਾ ਕੈ ਹੀਐ ਪ੍ਰਗਟੁ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਹੋਆ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਰਸਨ ਰਮੋਰੀ ॥੩॥