Can A 'mona' Ever Be Classed As As Sikh ?

[cool water]

Forget what talsali and SPGC have to say, a Sikh is who owes his/her alligence to only the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Sikhism regardless if they cut their hair or not. If Guru Ji does not state within the SGGS ji that its mandetory to keep hair then what more authority does one need? Do you use your own mind and listen to what your eternal Guru (SGGS ji) is saying or some organistaion who has their own agenda. No one should be allowed to discriminate against "mona" Sikhs because they should recognise the difference between Khalsa and Sikh first and look into the politics of the whole rehat that went on.

[+Singh_is_King+]

So effectively what your saying is if your a Singh i.e. has kesh but doesn't keep rehit then you are Sikh?

NO DONT AGREE (dont know what intoxicants you are or neither do I care)

I think your title needs to be changed to Can non-amrithdari's ever be classed as sikhs?

AGREE (partially)

And trust me i have seen so many people with the Roop of the Khalsa who are dushts to the panth.

AGREE -it is the 'people' not the 'roop of the Khalsa'

I'll name a few shall i KPS Gill, Gurmeet Rahm Rahim they all have kesh but there Sikhs because they have kesh.

NO. Just because you have 'Kesh' or an Amritdhari does not automatically make you a Sikh -your actions and approach to the Sikh way of life according to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji determine you are Sikh or not. Not you or I. KPS Gill Butcher and Traitor of the Sikhs may 'think' he is a Sikh but Akaal Purkh will decide not us ! In the meantime he can enjoy his Black Cat joker commando force security around him.

Hopefully i've just proved how stupid your argument is.

NO. Sikhi is about reason and above all truth -who are you to decide what is 'truth' (dont tell me you Ram Rahim is your mama ji ! ) only Akaal Purkh determines truth.

We have to guide these people to grow kesh and join the Khalsa.

AGREE

Forget what talsali and SPGC have to say, a Sikh is who owes his/her alligence to only the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Sikhism regardless if they cut their hair or not. If Guru Ji does not state within the SGGS ji that its mandetory to keep hair then what more authority does one need? Do you use your own mind and listen to what your eternal Guru (SGGS ji) is saying or some organistaion who has their own agenda. No one should be allowed to discriminate against "mona" Sikhs because they should recognise the difference between Khalsa and Sikh first and look into the politics of the whole rehat that went on.

How can you owe your allegiance to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as a mona -please explain?

[Papi]

Who are you to classify anyone as sikh or non-sikh !!!

[valli singh]

Unfortunately I think people have failed to realize that all of this sudden interest in defining who a Sikh is, is at best political window dressing by an Imperialist SGPC which is owned by the SAD, now as Amritdharis are their only bankable constituency they are wary of Sahajdharis and want them excluded from the voting process, which is the reason for these repeated 'amendments' from pre-Independence, to 1971 and up until the present day.

Here is an interesting bit on the subject from Serjinder Singh of Sikhnet:

Waheguru ji ka khalsa

Waheguru ji ki fateh

Nearly 3 years after Baisakhi of 1699 Guru ji wrote letters (hukamnamas to some sahejdhari Sikhs - non amritdhari) on 6 February 1702 signed (characteristic authentic Nissan of tenth Guruji) by Guruji. The following is the text of one of these written to Sikhs presumably in Patna as the letter is preserved there.

"Ek Oankar Satguru ji. Siri Guru ji di agaya hai Bhai Mihar Chand Karam Chand, Guru rakhega. Guru Guru japna janam saurega. Tusi mera Khalsa ho. Ik sau ik 101) rupiah haathi di phurmais hukam dekhde he sitabee hundee karai bhejni. Ar hor jo kichh Guru ke namit ka hovai so apai lai avna. Hathiar banh ke avgu so nihal hogu. Us di ghaal thai pavagu Guru naal rahgu. Guru ke navit ka hovai so horus kise no nahee dena ar masand, masandiay naal naahee milna, nahee mannanna, Jo sikh mile so mail laina. Vadheek dikkat naahee karni. Mera hukam hai sangat. Sammat 1758 miti Fago 10, satran Ath 8."

This is its translation.

Ek Oankar Satguru ji. This is the command of Siri Guru ji (for) Bhai Mihar Chand and Karam Chand Guru shall protect you. Remember and recite Guru your life shall become worthwhile. YOU ARE MY KHALSA. Your name has been proposed for arranging 101 Rupees for (procuring) an elephant. On seeing this command immediately send a draft, and anything else offered in the name of the Guru, you should bring with you. Those of you who will come adorning weapons shall be blessed, their efforts shall bear fruit and their loyalty to Guru shall be upheld. Anything offered in the name of Guru is not to be handed over to anyone else. And you should not socialise with a Masand or a Masand follower nor honour them. Any sikh who intends to join (sangat) should be admitted, you should not create too much hinderance. This is my command to the Sangat. Sammat(the Indian Bikrami calendar) 1758 Date Fago(Faggan the last month of the Indian year) 10 (Western calendar 6 February 1702) Lines eight 8.

This letter is in the Harimandar Sahib Patna (Hukamname edited by Ganda Singh, Hukamnama No. 55, published by Punjabi University Patiala, 1967)

Very important points that emerge from this Hukamnama are:

1. This is an actual document signed by tenth Guru ji nearly 3 years after the Baisakhi 1699 rather than some doubtful Rahitnama hence reflecting the actual view or attitude towards the sikhs to whom letter was wirtten.

2. The letter was written to two persons who from their name are obviously not Singhs but with 'Chand' surname hence not amritdhari.

3. The most odd thing is that Guru ji clearly says "Tusi Mera Khalsa Ho" ie You are my Khalsa". This is unusual in the sense that it means Guruji was not reserving the term Khalsa only for Amritdharis but for some Sahejdhari Sikhs as well.

4. Guru ji appears to be more concerned about by-passing the Masands for remitting the offerings directly to Guru ji rather than anything such as urge them to get baptised.

5. In terms of physical appearance (such as kakkaars etc) again Guruji is more particular about the Sikhs arriving with weapons on their person rather than fomally being baptised and bearing "Singh" surname.

6. In order to secure against any forgery Guru ji put his characteristic Nissan (usually brief Mool Mantar in his own hand) on the letter and even gave the number of lines of text in the letter as 8 at the end of the letter. This was the usual security arrangement. Comparison with numerous other such letters by Guru ji confirms that this is an authentic letter.

7. The rigid definition of a Khalsa that we are now given to accept does not seem to apply here. The main criteria for a Khalsa Guru ji appears to be emphasising is not to use the Masand channel to approach Guruji but to have direct connection with Guru ji. Indeed this is what the word "Khalisah" meant in the then existing usage of this term in the Mughal revenue administration of that time.

Similarly there is another letter written to the Sangat in Dhaka (Bangladesh) addressed to Bhai Brindaban and Gulal Chand (ibid. Hukamnama 57) with almost identical text such as "Tusi mera khalsa ho" and commanding again 101 rupees to be arranged and coming with weapons on and not socialising with Masands.

Humbly

Serjinder Singh

[valli singh]

Historically then, from the Guru's times it can be seen that Sahajdharis were respected as being Sikhs, Guru Gobind Singh had an ample entourage of Sahajdharis is his court, such as Nanakpanthis and Udhasis who travelled with him to Hazur Sahib.

In purataan times, Sahajdhari meant exactly what it says, the root word 'Sahaj' means a state of bliss from nam jaap, hence a Sahajdhari was one whose main distinguishing feature was that they japped nam and had faith in the Guru and Gurbani, whereas Keshdhari/Amritdhari were most visibly Singhs who had a different external form, this meaning was paramount through the period where traditional Sikhism flourished under Sikhs like Baba Khem Singh Bedi and Giani Gian Singh Nirmala who saw their Sahajdhari bretheren as being their equals and not people aspiring to look exactly like them.

It is not until British divide and conquer tactics and Sikh recruitment strategies were implemented that Sahajdharis were denigrated to being 'slow adapters' as they were latter labeled by the British-backed SGPC in the Gurdwara Reform Act, the issue was not even formally raised in the Sikh community until 1909 when the British agent Teja Singh Bhasauria realeased a statement saying that Sahajdharis were not Sikhs, is it a mere coincidence that this was the British military recruiter's own official position? And is it another coincidence that the SGPC who were formed by the pen stroke of their British masters again echoed the same opinion?

It is quite hypocritical that as Sikhs we pride ourselves as having 26 million followers and that we are the 5th largest religion in the world and then claim that Sahajdharis are not Sikhs when nearly 80% of the Sikh population is Sahajdhari! So by that logic are we to assume that there are only about 5 million Sikhs in the world now since monas are supposedly not Sikhs?

[+Singh_is_King+]

Valli Singh, Thank you for your research. You raise an important point. Sejhdaris. I notice you do not reference as 'sejhadri Sikhs'

Are we to quantify our faith on numbers or the quality of our faith based on our Guru Jis word ?

Why take Amrit then -when I can get so called allegiance to the Guru and truth as a sehjdari !?

The fact is this generation is into Parchaar not neo-Sikh missionary types. This is systematic of a non confrontational/ iPod/ everyone is my brother and sister generation. The fact is monae are not Sikhs. Some include them out of sheer pity, sympathy, votes, popularity but according Gurmat a mona is not a Sikh.

Is the Panth that weak it has to include monae, lets include the muslemans, christians, etc.... The fact is, if monae deserve so much to be Sikh, then why dont they grow thier hair. Simple.

There are many examples where monae are running a mock of the Panth: Gurdwara management committees, Anand Karaj (SIKH wedding ceremony -wearing a topi style pagh -ridicule the centuries and esteem of the Distaar and dance like monkies at the afternoon party). What next monae doing Kirtain/ Katha/ Path -are the real Sikhs asleep.....

You are scared like sheep who dont want to go extinct and include any limping leaper in.

The Panth will always be victorious and true to the Guru.

Shame on you for including handicaps into the Pure.

MONAE ARE NOT SIKHS

[Only five]

Forget what talsali and SPGC have to say, a Sikh is who owes his/her alligence to only the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Sikhism regardless if they cut their hair or not. If Guru Ji does not state within the SGGS ji that its mandetory to keep hair then what more authority does one need? Do you use your own mind and listen to what your eternal Guru (SGGS ji) is saying or some organistaion who has their own agenda. No one should be allowed to discriminate against "mona" Sikhs because they should recognise the difference between Khalsa and Sikh first and look into the politics of the whole rehat that went on.

For your info Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji said a Sikh must keep hair.

By some peoples definition of a Sikh anyone in this world can be a Sikh. 'A learner or practices one or two principles of Sikhism.' Anyone that practices equality can be called a Sikh, or goes to school to progress academically. Then there's one other thing they like to add when they know their defintion of a Sikh is compltelely wrong. 'A person that believes in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.'

I could sit here and say I believe in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji all I like it don't make a difference I still am not a Sikh. The day I start believing in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is the day I start practicing Sikhi and dropping everything that goes against Sikhi.

If a person cuts his/her own hair or for someone else then this person cannot be a Sikh or if a person does not practice equality then this person cannot be a Sikh. These are the simple tenets of Sikhi and Guru ji is telling us to walk on this straight path, but some want to create their path and in this case your practicing, your name and add ism at the end.

[+Singh_is_King+]

Forget what talsali and SPGC have to say, a Sikh is who owes his/her alligence to only the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Sikhism regardless if they cut their hair or not. If Guru Ji does not state within the SGGS ji that its mandetory to keep hair then what more authority does one need? Do you use your own mind and listen to what your eternal Guru (SGGS ji) is saying or some organistaion who has their own agenda. No one should be allowed to discriminate against "mona" Sikhs because they should recognise the difference between Khalsa and Sikh first and look into the politics of the whole rehat that went on.

For your info Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji said a Sikh must keep hair.

By some peoples definition of a Sikh anyone in this world can be a Sikh. 'A learner or practices one or two principles of Sikhism.' Anyone that practices equality can be called a Sikh, or goes to school to progress academically. Then there's one other thing they like to add when they know their defintion of a Sikh is compltelely wrong. 'A person that believes in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.'

I could sit here and say I believe in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji all I like it don't make a difference I still am not a Sikh. The day I start believing in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is the day I start practicing Sikhi and dropping everything that goes against Sikhi.

If a person cuts his/her own hair or for someone else then this person cannot be a Sikh or if a person does not practice equality then this person cannot be a Sikh. These are the simple tenets of Sikhi and Guru ji is telling us to walk on this straight path, but some want to create their path and in this case your practicing, your name and add ism at the end.

This is solid. 'Only Five' should get a Saroopa. RESPECT. You put it eloquently.

Be proud to be a Sikh (with uncut hair) -stand up against cults, monae, oppressors of the Panth.

Wear your Distaar and Kesh like never before, show the world you are Sikh and not like shorn sheep.

[Jangal Da]

Be proud to be a Sikh (with uncut hair) -stand up against cults, monae, oppressors of the Panth.

So you qualify monae with "oppressors of the Panth?"

Obviously you fail to grasp the points about monae Sikhs presented above - even when Guru Gobind Singh ji addressed them as his Khalsa. I know many an unshorn sheep with beard and turban - surely you do too, the ones who cannot even name the Panj Piyare, who cannot utter any bani past the Mool Mantar, who do not even know the names of the Ten Gurus in order!

The aim of everyone who calls themselves a Sikh should be to firmly committ to taking Amrit and joining the Sadh Sangat Saroop Gur Khalsa. Those who have taken Amrit must firmly lead by example and committ to Seva for the sake of the entire Panth.

For the definition of a Sikh - simply attend your local Gurudwara and watch whosoever bows before the Guru Granth Sahib - Waheguru knows all thoughts and sincerities. Never make the mistake of taking that judgement into your own hands and recognise with love that those who have come before their Guru is a Sikh.

[+Singh_is_King+]

Be proud to be a Sikh (with uncut hair) -stand up against cults, monae, oppressors of the Panth.

So you qualify monae with "oppressors of the Panth?"

Obviously you fail to grasp the points about monae Sikhs presented above - even when Guru Gobind Singh ji addressed them as his Khalsa. I know many an unshorn sheep with beard and turban - surely you do too, the ones who cannot even name the Panj Piyare, who cannot utter any bani past the Mool Mantar, who do not even know the names of the Ten Gurus in order!

The aim of everyone who calls themselves a Sikh should be to firmly committ to taking Amrit and joining the Sadh Sangat Saroop Gur Khalsa. Those who have taken Amrit must firmly lead by example and committ to Seva for the sake of the entire Panth.

For the definition of a Sikh - simply attend your local Gurudwara and watch whosoever bows before the Guru Granth Sahib - Waheguru knows all thoughts and sincerities. Never make the mistake of taking that judgement into your own hands and recognise with love that those who have come before their Guru is a Sikh.

Jangal Da,

With respect. I appreciate, honestly what you say.

My point is not about corrupt Sikhs (with uncut hair). It is about monae, who mock the Panth -we both know it is one thing to bow before Guru Ji, but was was 'your intent' -if the love for the Guru is so great, then follow the path of Sikhi (with uncut hair).

Monae (definition):

1. Love Sikhi and the word of Guru Ji SO much that they apply a blade to their face each morning (or near enough)

2. They mock the covering of the head in the Darbar Sahib with a hankey/ napkin/ rammal

3. They wear a pagh (not Distaar) on either/ or their wedding day or funeral

4. Their daughters (bearers of the future generation of the Panth) 'prefer clean shaven'

5. Drink shraab/ eat meat

Singho, Kesh is sacrosacant for any Sikh, we can't make concessions. I/ we cannot make judgement on anybody but the Panth is littered with imposters

Please convince me how can monae be accepted into the Panth when their very basis is against Sikhi ?

Baul chuc maaf.