Who Is Allowed?

[fresh singh]

In the Gurus time ALL were allowed to sit together and perform kirtan. Bala was hindu and Mardana was muslim and both were allowed to sing and perform kirtan. Does that mean they should be removed from the stage? Guru Gobind Singh ji's majestic court was decorated with non-amritdharis muslims hindus, udasis and Nanakpanthis. Why were they allowed to perform in his court if non-amritdharis were not allowed. Why were they allowed to address the sangat and read poems and sing, if Guru ji had banned non-amritdharis. This is an inovation of the tat-khalsa singh sabha circa 1880's. The SGPC has now codafied this, even though it has no precedent in sikh history. It ties in well with their philosophy that amritdharis are superior to the rest, how could this be accurate when in the preceding nine gurus times no such distinction existed. There's no evidence that Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj Ji made such a distinction either. Though there are uncorraborated claims by certain sects with a vested interest in this issue to the contrary. The only example i've ever heard to supprt this false theory is that in the 1960's, on a trip to Patna Sahib Sant Kartar Singh was dismayed when he saw a muslim performing dhadi and complained to the jathedar that the muslims should become amritdhari or leave the premesis. But this is hardly evidence of anything other than the fact that false ideas can be easily exported from Punjab to Bihar.

Bhai Mardana and Bhai Bala had charan phul . ie they were gursikhs not hindu or muslim

[guptveer1469]

In the Gurus time ALL were allowed to sit together and perform kirtan. Bala was hindu and Mardana was muslim and both were allowed to sing and perform kirtan. Does that mean they should be removed from the stage? Guru Gobind Singh ji's majestic court was decorated with non-amritdharis muslims hindus, udasis and Nanakpanthis. Why were they allowed to perform in his court if non-amritdharis were not allowed. Why were they allowed to address the sangat and read poems and sing, if Guru ji had banned non-amritdharis. This is an inovation of the tat-khalsa singh sabha circa 1880's. The SGPC has now codafied this, even though it has no precedent in sikh history. It ties in well with their philosophy that amritdharis are superior to the rest, how could this be accurate when in the preceding nine gurus times no such distinction existed. There's no evidence that Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj Ji made such a distinction either. Though there are uncorraborated claims by certain sects with a vested interest in this issue to the contrary. The only example i've ever heard to supprt this false theory is that in the 1960's, on a trip to Patna Sahib Sant Kartar Singh was dismayed when he saw a muslim performing dhadi and complained to the jathedar that the muslims should become amritdhari or leave the premesis. But this is hardly evidence of anything other than the fact that false ideas can be easily exported from Punjab to Bihar.

Bhai Mardana and Bhai Bala had charan phul . ie they were gursikhs not hindu or muslim

His descendants claim otherwise.

Bhul Chuk Maaf,

WJKK WJKF

[Traveller]

THE CODE OF SIKH CONDUCT AND CONVENTIONS

Kirtan (Devotional Hymns Singing by a Group or an Indvidual)

Article VI

a) Only a Sikh may perform Kirtan in a congregation.

from:

http://sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/section_three_chap_five.html

Vahejeo - sorry but if you read the posts in this topic then you would have recognised what you wrote above has already been stated by someone else....after that I asked...why does the same article by sgpc use sikh and baptised sikh- meaning there is a difference between a sikh and an amritdhari...it also means that non-amrtidhari sikhs are allowed to do kirtan.... unless someone can find a definition of a sikh... are there any topics on here about the definition of a sikh because I can't find anything specific... also just had the thought... if kirtan must be performed by amritdharis...then that would mean before Guru Gobind Singh ji, no one was allowed due to the khalsa not being around....

sorry if my logic offends anyone...

...and I admit that my knowledge of the sgpc is limited...all I can gather about it is that it wasnt around when the Guru Ji's were...but is now...but not by Guru Ji's decree- so why do people run around after it? I guess thats another thread altogether....anyway back to the kirtan issue!

[Vahejeo]

I think everyone has their own opinions of what to follow in Sikhi but regardless of what you believe in SGPC is a common ground we can all agree with. I am not saying that the SGPC maryada is perfect or complete but it is the minimum what we should be following. I personally agree with what GurSikhs in AKJ and DamDami Taksal follow, but that is just me.

So if SGPC is saying that Sikhs should be the ones leading the Sangat, what wrong is in that? In a Church Christians lead their congregation, in a Mosque Muslims lead their services. So in a Gurdwara, why would a non-Sikh lead the Sangat? Doesn't make any sense.

I am surpised we are even having a discussion about this.

[valli singh]

Excellent posts by Traveller and Sunny Bond Singh ji,

The SGPC 'maryada' is a contrivance of the 1920's-40's under British rule,

it has no bearing or binding upon Sikhs whatsoever, how can a British-created political body

have any justification to say that they are formulating a Code of Conduct for the Sikhs thereby over-riding centuries of Guru-Ordained Tradition.

Even objective Western scholars like Mcleod have scoffed at the SGPC's revisionistic gall

as evidenced in their expurgation of Rehitnamas and arbitrary insertions of Bhasauria-speak

into their codified effort.

And before anybody says "but Sri Akal Takht Sahib said..."

Please don't be so gullible as to accept the present day's condition as being indicative of history.

Kindly read the pre-British history of Akal Takht and who controlled it since it's inception (Baba Buddha Dal Akalis).

If the SGPC passes a Code of Conduct and the SGPC-Controlled Akal Takht approves and promotes it is there any real valid authenticity to such a sham proceeding?

Even Vedanti has publically stated that politics have embezelled Sri Akal Takht Sahib, and more importantly that the SGPC cannot be seen to unbiasedly represent Sikhs--meaning it is compromised by its rampant politicization and corruption.

[Aparadhee]

i think sgpc has made seperate titles (baptised sikh and unbaptised) due to modern day pressure from non amritdharis to be recognised. if we go back to maharajs times then sikh would be that person who has taken amrit. before guru gobind singh amrit was given in form of charan amrit so idea of amrit has been round from guru nanak dev jis times.

issues on whether bhai mardana ji and bhai bala ji were muslim and hindu has been discussed before and evidence points towards them being sikhs. their descendents can claim what they want, alot of people still claim guru nanak to be hindu but we dont take their word for it do we?

my opinion is that if the person is getting in to sikhi and keeps the basic rehit i.e kesh and no intoxicants then they can be allowed,

akhand paaht maryada is very strict within many jathas and specifically asks for amritdhari gursikhs to perform the seva.

it is important to remember that if a amritdhari commits a bujjer kurehit then they are also not allowed to lead the sangat either.

gurfateh

[valli singh]

I agree completely Brother,

Of course only an Amritdhari can do Akhand Paaths,

and a patit--Amritdhari who breaks Amrit--cannot do kirtan,

though I cannot see any precedent from Sikh History that would infringe upon

sehajdharis or even non-Sikhs from doing kirtan and voicing their love for God,

I mean that would be like saying if the Bhagats were alive today--we would not allow them

to sit on the stage and do kirtan!

[Aparadhee]

fair point valli singh,

are we now making a distinction between patit amritdhari and non amritdharis who may also commit bujjer kurehit or are they one and the same?

"mean that would be like saying if the Bhagats were alive today--we would not allow them

to sit on the stage and do kirtan!"

<<<<<

veer ji look up threads regarding bhagats meeting guru nanak dev ji and receiving charan amrit. again this is one of those topics that has been very popular in the past

[valli singh]

True,

I'd say a non-amritdhari Sikh who has love for God, believes in SGGS and the Ten Gurus,

and abstains from bad practises should be allowed to do kirtan as they have not become patits

by reason of their not yet having chakked amrit,

they have not formally been administered the laws of bujjar kuriets--but they should be Sikhs in good standing in the community,

and if they are non-Sikhs they should be high-caliber religious folks, not just anyone.

And as regards the Bhagats,

whether or not they or someone had charan amrit,

I just can't see Guru Nanak or any of the other Gurus denying people access to the stage

on that basis alone--because there wouldn't have been an appearence-based signifier as there is now to differentiate between people.

Which brings me back to my main point that this discrimination against non-amritdharis is largely a recent phenomenon i.e an SGPC-related construction and not a Guru-Ordained ordinance.

[Aparadhee]

fair points,

obviously before guru gobind singh ji panj kakkars would not have been formally given to abhlaakis, but i think certainly at the least dastar and long kesh would have been an identifier of guru nanak dev ji's sikhs thus differentiating them to others as is the case today.

we agree on maryada for akhand paaht but i am curious as to why this would be different for maryada of kirtan in maharajs darbar. i.e. wouldnt saying no to a non amritdhari for akhand paaht seva be jsut as bad as for kirtan seva in a darbar?