Re:

[Khaalis]

"I disagree that education is the complete antidote. No matter how educated they are, some people are going to have egos the size of the world. What it comes down to is evil i.e pride, jealousy, etc. Some of the most educated are the most racist. Look at the British occupation of foreign lands in the past, do you think they didn't know about foreign cultures and customs. They were still intent on implementing their stamp of their 'britishness' all over the world. This know it all mentality (so they think they know it all) runs rife in their culture. I'm not saying ignorance doesn't cause hate and prejudice but to me, my explanation is probably the root cause of most of their racism."

I mentioned secular and spiritual education - obvioulsy without BOTH, one is not complete - hence we have Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji as the minimum syllabus for a Khalsa.

You speak much of 'their culture' and 'their racism', these conditions are not unique in the British, have a look around in India the next you visit, the 5 chor operate at a much higher level.

You also need to be careful not to oversimplifiy everything. Different Britons had different interests; some religious, some commercial, some political, some regal... you can't put them all in the same pot.

War and domination strategy has always been to destroy a peoples heritage - in this way you destroy the people, these methods have been used for thousands of years, they weren't invented by the British, in fact competnig succesive Indian Kings over the last 2,000 years used the same methods as did the Egyptions, wipe out any trace of the previous rulers - best way is to destroy their arts, heritage, language and archives.

With all due respect, you need to look up and understand what the word racist means - the 19thc race for -Empire' in Europe had nothing to do with racism, it was to do with power.

The educated i.e. Napolean - in fact had great respect for all cultures and faiths, he kick started the process to decode the Egyption hieroglyphics, read the Koran (not just cursed it based on the actions of a minority) - and was an admiror of Muhammed Sahib, freed the Jews from the Catholic ghettos etc etc. He also captures much 'white' land.

In fact the rare cases of educated Britishers (those who took the time to learn) created amazing people like C F Andrews - who though a Jesuit - developed a deep love for Sikhs.

Show me, what do you bring to the table regarding the British (today - educated) compared to those pig ignorant Indians (inc Sikhs) that have issues with Dalits gaining freedoms, rights and respect... and show their frustration through daily henious murders, rapes, beatings etc etc?

It is again education that takes away dark vision.

To clarify, when I talk about education, I am talking about real education, education of the truth (ultimtately divine or divinely inspired - as per most legal systems around the word), I am not talking about propoganda.

[Kalsingh]

"I disagree that education is the complete antidote. No matter how educated they are, some people are going to have egos the size of the world. What it comes down to is evil i.e pride, jealousy, etc. Some of the most educated are the most racist. Look at the British occupation of foreign lands in the past, do you think they didn't know about foreign cultures and customs. They were still intent on implementing their stamp of their 'britishness' all over the world. This know it all mentality (so they think they know it all) runs rife in their culture. I'm not saying ignorance doesn't cause hate and prejudice but to me, my explanation is probably the root cause of most of their racism."

I mentioned secular and spiritual education - obvioulsy without BOTH, one is not complete - hence we have Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji as the minimum syllabus for a Khalsa.

You speak much of 'their culture' and 'their racism', these conditions are not unique in the British, have a look around in India the next you visit, the 5 chor operate at a much higher level.

You also need to be careful not to oversimplifiy everything. Different Britons had different interests; some religious, some commercial, some political, some regal... you can't put them all in the same pot.

War and domination strategy has always been to destroy a peoples heritage - in this way you destroy the people, these methods have been used for thousands of years, they weren't invented by the British, in fact competnig succesive Indian Kings over the last 2,000 years used the same methods as did the Egyptions, wipe out any trace of the previous rulers - best way is to destroy their arts, heritage, language and archives.

With all due respect, you need to look up and understand what the word racist means - the 19thc race for -Empire' in Europe had nothing to do with racism, it was to do with power.

The educated i.e. Napolean - in fact had great respect for all cultures and faiths, he kick started the process to decode the Egyption hieroglyphics, read the Koran (not just cursed it based on the actions of a minority) - and was an admiror of Muhammed Sahib, freed the Jews from the Catholic ghettos etc etc. He also captures much 'white' land.

In fact the rare cases of educated Britishers (those who took the time to learn) created amazing people like C F Andrews - who though a Jesuit - developed a deep love for Sikhs.

Show me, what do you bring to the table regarding the British (today - educated) compared to those pig ignorant Indians (inc Sikhs) that have issues with Dalits gaining freedoms, rights and respect... and show their frustration through daily henious murders, rapes, beatings etc etc?

It is again education that takes away dark vision.

To clarify, when I talk about education, I am talking about real education, education of the truth (ultimtately divine or divinely inspired - as per most legal systems around the word), I am not talking about propoganda.

My friend, first of all, when I’m talking about ‘their’ racism and how racist ‘they’ are, I’m talking about the racist ones among them. I'd be a fool to think every single white man and woman was a racist as I know otherwise. I thought that was taken as given but seeing that most of your response to my comments revolves around this percieved thinking of mine by you, I now clarify.

Please don't insult me by saying that I need to look up what the word racism means. Again when I mentioned their foreign occupation, I never said that racism was the only reason. However, for whatever reason the British decided to occupy the world, their true colours sure did come out a lot of the time (this time I better say not in all instances). If you are not aware of this, please look up the slave trade of Africans and racism to Indians in India. I understand Indians were also made as slaves at some point.

You're making it sound like when they did invade it was never to do with racism, please correct me if I’m wrong. If you don't think I’m wrong then I’m sure theres a whole line of educated British academics who themselves will admit that I’m debating with the wrong person.

To your points about other races and cultures doing similar things in the past, it maybe true and I never said the British are the only ones who did it. However, we were talking about the British (again, I better say not each and every one) so I didn't see the need to talk about anyone else.

I think the 5 chors operate in different ways. You can't say in india they are at a higher level.

You cannot compare educated British to working class uneducated Indians, it takes the breath out you argument. It quite simply contradicts what you’re trying to state.

In terms of educated British, I’ll bring something to the table which even British white people bring will agree with, which is even more devastating than the things you described. Just one word, IRAQ. It maybe a bit off topic but I believe its related to this issue. Where’s mother America and the UK in Zimbabwe? They say its their duty to protect people and install democracy but then why have they not taken Mugabe out yet? It may not illustrate racism (it may do) but it illustrates the fact that even the most educated (US and UK governments) are corrupt to the pinnacle.

Education is not the answer to these problems.

All my point was to begin with (we’ve run into other tangents now) was that a ‘know it all attitude’ runs rife through out the British people. I was saying they have a culture (I am not talking about British culture but the British have a culture within) of displaying this mentality but this doesn’t mean that every one of them has it.

Regards

[HSD*^]

khaalis you have some good points, but lets face it, if race riots took hold in this country we would be the ones who get kicked in the most. educated, enlightened people might like us but doesnt mean they will go out of their way to stop the more brutish ones in their race.

[Khaalis]

"khaalis you have some good points, but lets face it, if race riots took hold in this country we would be the ones who get kicked in the most. educated, enlightened people might like us but doesnt mean they will go out of their way to stop the more brutish ones in their race."

Veer Ji, the crux of my arguement is that its folly to stereotype anyone race, culture or religion.

The whole premise of this arguement is a failed one and irrelevant in the bigger scheme of things. The vaikaar operate equally amongst all nations - as do achhai gun. All the arguements that have been presented against "them" are equally if not more so, applicable to "us".

You mention a concern about racist 'violence' kicking off in the UK, Veer Ji, if you look at recent history, you will see that this is much more likely to happen (and does) in India, by all types of Indians including Sikh oppression of Dalits in some sad cases.

I still say and believe UK is the best country for a Sikh - no other country in the world compares regarding the rights and privedges we enjoy here.

To conclude, when I have mentioned education - I have not been talking about a piece of paper or particular class, but about real education - education concerning human studies i.e. common psychology/anthropology/religion/culture - its these deep rooted subjects, which some of us simply learn about through good sangatand opening our mind, as well as education.

These subjects were certainly areas where the British Government were ignorant in some parts, but on the other hand, other areas such as the British Army, delved into these areas which led to the decision to recruiting Sikhs to rank and file - and thus creating millions of jobs for a redundant soldier people (after the fall of Sikh Empire). In doing this they also allowed the Sikhs to flourish and become world renowned for their bravery, but more importatnly, created numerous opportunities for sikhs to migrate all over the world, which was a great boon.

All is the play of the timeless, there is no good, there is no bad.

Vaheguru

[guptveer1469]

I have to agree that UK is one of the best, if not best, countries for a Sikh. Canada may be good too.

Bhul Chuk Maaf,

WJKK WJKF

[dalsingh101]

Khaalis, I am having some difficulties accepting some of your assertions. Please allow me to explain.

Veer Ji, the crux of my arguement is that its folly to stereotype anyone race, culture or religion.

The whole premise of this arguement is a failed one and irrelevant in the bigger scheme of things. The vaikaar operate equally amongst all nations - as do achhai gun. All the arguements that have been presented against "them" are equally if not more so, applicable to "us".

You say this but if you open your eyes it is the Briish who are obsessed with racialising everything. Just take a look at the British media and the recent imperialistic actions of the government.

You mention a concern about racist 'violence' kicking off in the UK, Veer Ji, if you look at recent history, you will see that this is much more likely to happen (and does) in India, by all types of Indians including Sikh oppression of Dalits in some sad cases.

I am glad you mentioned this because too many Sikhs sweep it under the cover. In reality however, this is plainly a Jatt issue more than a Sikh one. The violence and sexual abuse you talk about are characteristic of the Jatt communities relationship with "lower castes", so please be careful not to generalise as you yourself are complaining about.

Another point is learning from when we, as Sikhs, were caught out in violent clashes in the past. Be this partition or 1984. Is there not something we can learn from this? Are we now putting our heads in the sand to potential problems here in the UK? (note my use of the word potential)

I still say and believe UK is the best country for a Sikh - no other country in the world compares regarding the rights and privedges we enjoy here.

Mate pull your head out, the so called priviledges were hard earned. These people are not doing us any great favours compared to the ones given to them by the Sikh community past and present. You talk like a sycophant.

These subjects were certainly areas where the British Government were ignorant in some parts, but on the other hand, other areas such as the British Army, delved into these areas which led to the decision to recruiting Sikhs to rank and file - and thus creating millions of jobs for a redundant soldier people (after the fall of Sikh Empire). In doing this they also allowed the Sikhs to flourish and become world renowned for their bravery, but more importatnly, created numerous opportunities for sikhs to migrate all over the world, which was a great boon.

Now you've gone overboard brother. You are seriously playing down the fact that Sikhs actually lost their own land/sovereignity/independence and military strength as a result of the Anglo-Sikh wars. Being used as storm troopers by the English in many dubious wars (i.e. the Opium Wars) is not as great as you are portraying here. Having destroyed their powerbase and left them inbetween two hostile communities, is it any wonder Sikhs are now economic nomads? No offence brother but you are talking like an Anglo-Saxon's apologist nookar here.

All is the play of the timeless, there is no good, there is no bad.

There is good and there is bad, our job is to try and learn to distinguish between the two.

[HSD*^]

Veer Ji, the crux of my arguement is that its folly to stereotype anyone race, culture or religion.

The whole premise of this arguement is a failed one and irrelevant in the bigger scheme of things. The vaikaar operate equally amongst all nations - as do achhai gun. All the arguements that have been presented against "them" are equally if not more so, applicable to "us".

You mention a concern about racist 'violence' kicking off in the UK, Veer Ji, if you look at recent history, you will see that this is much more likely to happen (and does) in India, by all types of Indians including Sikh oppression of Dalits in some sad cases.

right but if we are stereotyped, what do we do? i try to break those barriers, but some people will always be bigots. like i said many 'english' people are great and all those things you describe. but how many would go out of there way to save us in a 1984 situation? and bringing history into it is dumb. look at history everywhere - different peoples will have good times and bad times - and the bad times can get ugly. in british history, the govt has always been aloof of their people. in hindustan they may incite the riots for votes, here they would say nothing. but until something happens either of us could be wrong.

I still say and believe UK is the best country for a Sikh - no other country in the world compares regarding the rights and privedges we enjoy here.

To conclude, when I have mentioned education - I have not been talking about a piece of paper or particular class, but about real education - education concerning human studies i.e. common psychology/anthropology/religion/culture - its these deep rooted subjects, which some of us simply learn about through good sangatand opening our mind, as well as education.

rights? to be coconuts? rights come and go.

being open has its limits - it leads to abuse if you're too gullible. and so what if they are? like i said i'm not stereotyping. they have good and bad. so do we. not every sikh is perfect, and the bad ones do my head in.

These subjects were certainly areas where the British Government were ignorant in some parts, but on the other hand, other areas such as the British Army, delved into these areas which led to the decision to recruiting Sikhs to rank and file - and thus creating millions of jobs for a redundant soldier people (after the fall of Sikh Empire). In doing this they also allowed the Sikhs to flourish and become world renowned for their bravery, but more importatnly, created numerous opportunities for sikhs to migrate all over the world, which was a great boon.

what the hell? there were less than a million sikhs in the punjab after the end of the anglo-sikh wars..........

and you do know we had our own empire before hand? a sikh emperor who led sikh generals who commanded sikh troops................a nation were a sikh child could grow up free. i dont know about you but that sounds like true freedom. not growing up as an 'echo'. back then we had the worlds best troops. we had a free and fair punjab. european visitors felt safer there then they did in british india. france and russia were friendly with us and were willing to trade if we had access to them. now we are 'economic nomads' as someone pointed out above. and they didnt let us go all around the world. they did their best to keep us out of the anglo-saxon colonies. and they sent many of us to iraq, but when they found oil there, they moved us back to india. wonder why? there's a reason england has resisted invasion for so long - think about it. and why do sikhs fall at each hurdle? have a look at yourself.

All is the play of the timeless, there is no good, there is no bad.

oh really. funny thing is i thought thats what the bad guys say.

[Khaalis]

I am not being apologetic, nor do I understand what all the fuss is about. Its a silly conversation - people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. The Panth (I am purposefully generalising) is not exactly welcoming of the Biharis or Dalits are they - do your own research - I have done mine 1st hand in Punjab - and it makde me SICK. Compare your priviledges to those of minorities in Punjab, smell the the coffee. Seriously, if people don't like this country I really think they should leave - I would if I felt the same way - otherwise we are simply internet heroes and real life contradiicts.

History is history, get over it, the comment made about the Sikh Raj and Sikh Generals etc, ahem, Dogra brothers - thats that. Sikhs lost their Raj because they lost Dasam Patshahs grace, simple - the rest was just a bahana. Sikhs have always been nkown for being in chardhi kala and making a victory out of so called defeat - this attitude has obviously diluted going by some posts being read here.

The whole continuing theme of 'British' is a joke, who are the British, a class, the Government, or certain Individuals?

Many Sikhs have intergrated well into the UK, yes after much hard work and challenge - of course siknghs must remain tyar bar tyar, but this does not equal paranoid/pessimistic. Learn Rajniti from ithihas and current trends - you will find the whole word operates on similar lines inc India, no nation is wonderful (apart from Bhutan perhaps, lol).

Even our Guru's didn't generalise the Mughals - they established relationships based on the present ruler and his actions. Again, this shows how dum we have become - falling into the same hate/prejudice trap that racists fall into.

Judge a person, not a nation.

[dalsingh101]

Seriously, if people don't like this country I really think they should leave - I would if I felt the same way - otherwise we are simply internet heroes and real life contradiicts.

You know that people are actually fighting and dying to get the British and their allies out of Iraq and Afghanistan. This doesn't make white people pack their bags does it? Talking of our own history, it is common knowledge that people were hung, blown off canons and exiled to kala paani because they didn't want to be occupied.

More importantly, if I am here, it doesn't automatically mean I have to become a token Anglophile does it now? Like I said, there are problems with Jatt mentality in Panjab in relation to migrants. I know my own family treats labour very well and the other side of the coin you fail to mention is the way in which some Biharis are adopting the Panjabi lifestyle.

I suspect you are enamoured of the British and can't see critically due to this.

History is history, get over it, the comment made about the Sikh Raj and Sikh Generals etc, ahem, Dogra brothers - thats that. Sikhs lost their Raj because they lost Dasam Patshahs grace, simple - the rest was just a bahana. Sikhs have always been known for being in chardhi kala and making a victory out of so called defeat - this attitude has obviously diluted going by some posts being read here.

The whole continuing theme of 'British' is a joke, who are the British, a class, the Government, or certain Individuals?[/

So white imperialism wasn't anything to do with Sikhs losing their sovereignity then? The view you posted above is so naive I don't know where to begin. The Sikh kingdome was lost due to poor decisions regarding leadership (Sikhs at fault) but the ultimate underlying cause was the expansionist and coveting nature of the British empire, which is made up of British people and their minions. I am not saying that every British person supports this but as a society, enough supporting forces exist within the British to make this a defining characteristic. This involves their values, power structures, attitudes towards non whites and attitude towards each other.

Judge a person, not a nation.

You make me laugh. Look the amount of literature written about Sikhs since they came under the radar of WASP world. They have consistently produced so called academic studies that essentially try and encapsulate the general contours of Sikh politics, psychology, belief, practice, character etc. etc.

These were used extensively to form policies regarding us. So we were and I dare say are, assessed as a community in terms of threat/benefits etc. towards the WASPS.

Why can't we simply do the same?

[Khaalis]

You and your family are voluntarily funding the same wars that you call claim are 'race' based, although we all know they are greed and security based. WW2 German and Bosnia conflict was harldy race based was it (for the British).

Again, I am not apologising for the British, but this 'look what they did to us' attitude is tiresome. Any 'Mard' would not utilise opportunities and enjoy all the benefits provided for by those whom they 'say' they detest.

No point banging ones head against a brick wall, I digress.