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Guest confusingh

A Question To Fellow My Brothers And Sisters?

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To the OP:

Do you think Amrit Sanchar is a ritual? How about rising at amritvela and doing your nitnem bani? How about removing your kachera after bathing and replacing it with a new one without being separated from it at any time? Or matha-tekking to Guru Granth Sahib and leaving an offering in a Gurdwara?

You seem to have a distaste for Hindu practices and ideology. Have you read the Dasam Granth? What do you think of Chaubis Avatar or the Chandi Charitras?

Why do your arguments reek of Kala-Afghana and co?

K.

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Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

The two video's that you posted related to aarti. The first one is of a CULT known as the neeldhari. Dont know anything about themto be honest but cult should really give taht away.

The second is a nihung smagam video, They are singing aarti as all Bani is written in raag to music, the line when they throw flowers is the line saying "Phulan ki baraka barakave" This means to shower with flowers. This part of the aarti was written by Guru Gobind SIngh Ji Maharaj and can be found in Gur Dasam Darbar ang 183.

You can see it within many of the world faiths and cultures that giving flowers or showering flowers on someone is a sign of respect. They are showing their respect by showering Maharaj with flowers. But to understand that you need to BELIEVE that Maharaj is Maharaj because of his qualities not just by name.

It still is not clear if this goes on in your Gurdwara or not, the discussion is spiralling in to something else altogether.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

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Guest confusingh
To the OP:

Do you think Amrit Sanchar is a ritual? How about rising at amritvela and doing your nitnem bani? How about removing your kachera after bathing and replacing it with a new one without being separated from it at any time? Or matha-tekking to Guru Granth Sahib and leaving an offering in a Gurdwara?

You seem to have a distaste for Hindu practices and ideology. Have you read the Dasam Granth? What do you think of Chaubis Avatar or the Chandi Charitras?

Why do your arguments reek of Kala-Afghana and co?

K.

Veer ji,

Firstly, a distinction should be made between the use of ritualism and routine, routine is integral to Sikhi as being a true GurSikh a person needs discipline and routine within their lives, it brings order to ones life in being practicing Sikhi purely. Therefore routine, isn't interchangable in regards to ritualism; it is a ritual if one performs something as a means of gain or praise or something which resembles a custom in it... i.e. if people does this as a means of praying or communicating with God our religion clearly states this isn't justified! Waheguru's charan can be obtained only by leading a pure life and gaining the Gian needed to do so, no other practices can be justified in attempting to educate and gain knowledge themselves about the message of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. The Dasam Granth uses symbolism; although there is great doubt I do believe this should be an integral part of Sikih, a debate which I really don't see valid holding.

In regards to Kala Afghana, I haven't really heard much of what he says, it seems through sangats that I've been told that he does say some quite controversial stuff, I'm willing to give anybody a listen be it AKJ, Taksali, Afghana or anybody who believes to have a knowledge of Sikhi as long as it is logical and in accordance to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, if they are not then I dismiss their arguments and put forward mine as a means to prove them wrong. However, if Kala Afghana is anti-Sikh then I assure you I have no common ground with him.

My point is that should Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji be given the respect to not be worshipped in an idolistic manner, but to be read and learnt from instead of reading it and not knowing what anything in it means? ... personally its quite hurtful as a Sikh to hear people try to add an element which does not in any way show true Sikhi, this is not the correct parchar which should be done within sangat, Sikhi is a complex way of life which everybody needs to learn about in order to better themselves; by doing this you'd have to learn and gain gian from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj ji's message. I can't see any other way which somebody can be able to better themselves.

Je Galti Hoi fir Bhul Chuk Maaf karna, no offence is intended to any of my brothers or sisters on this post, but I believe I hold a logical argument and nobody has really attempted to hold a response in a logical manner

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

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There was a point of discussing this hear, but I believe this discussion should be put into action now. going on any further with this discussin is a waste of time. You should confront the committee about your concerns and give them the reasoning you provided here. Then get back to this site about what they have said and then discuss some more.

If your not willing to confront this committee then there are Singh already asking you which Gurdwara this is and they will go ask them and see for themselves what is going on.

It's on you to make the next move now confusingh.

I hope it's the right one.

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Guest confusingh
bro i jus wanted to ask

how would you respect dhan pita sri guru granth sahib jii

would u jus read and learn from pita jiii

There is a reason Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave us a hukam 'Guru Maneyo Granth'...

This is in the sense that you learn from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, obviously Guru Maharaj ji is not in human form, Gurus were teachers to the Sikh (student) disciples and the message of Sikhi was to be spread and the Gurus were able to communicate with sangat directly, and Guru Ji stopped the passing on of GurGadhi to human form, therefore its more than obvious it was meant for us to look to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as a teacher, and the only difference being is that you read and learn from the messages left behind from previous true bhagats, pirs as well as Gurus...There is also a great distinction between idolising Guru Sahib, when one performs rituals and does not learn and read Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj this is then losing credibility of our Guru Ji, if Maharaj Ji's words are supposed to be simply chanted and not understood, then does that mean there is no need for the message of Bani not to be implemented in a GurSikh lifestyle, it is this message we need to learn in order to better ourselves.

how i would respect dhan pita sri guru granth sahib jii would be to learn the message Guru Ji is giving me and attempt to implement this in to my life, if I were to not learn from Bani and prioritise naam japna as the sole value of my Sikhi, isn't this disobedience?.. and is it not wrong to disobey your own pita jiii, even Guru Maharaj Ji states this, you see learning these values is imperative to the understanding of our Sikh theology. I hope I've answered your question 'bro' ... I am going to take my points further with the managing commitee of the local Guru Ghar.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

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Thanks fro the reply jii but would you call changeing guru jis rumalla sahibs every day idolizing taking pita ji into suchkand sahib placing pita ji on the bed idolizing from my eyes I see it as respect that’s how some singhs and singhnai see it as respect by throwing flowers

I think it would be easier for everyone bro if u take it up with the local Gurukar cuz each gurukar has something different

Sorry if I spoke rudely or said anything rong

Guru kirpa

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Can you please tell the Sangat which gurdvara this is, they must be doing some hard core beadbii by what your writing - i mean, the sangat has the right to sort things out, please let us know - i mean . . . doing nitnem, doing abhiyaas, giving santhia and putting ramalas over maharaj is the biggest beadbi ever - ITS SEEMS - And reciting Gurbani - ref to the jaap is just BRahmanism - i mean, why do we do nitnem, we should do it once a year and learn from it, then after a year when we forget the teachings read it again innit.

a lot of sarcasm - admin close the thread, its a headache reading all the nonsence, just dont understand whats being said.

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Sikhi is a value system (NOT A FUTILE RITUALISTIC PANTH). If someone attempts to read the Gurbani with the true respect (GURU MANYO GRANTH), they will undestand that the 'Living Treasure - SGGSji' blesses us with a value system (as a True Guru) and by reading, contemplating, learning a way of life we start applying the values to our life and that is 'Sikhi' and that is truly 'Manana'. Once we start respecting the Gurbani as a true Guru (not ritualistic Mantar chantig), 'GU - darkness of ignorance' and 'RU - remove' we will start knowing what did Baba Nanak ji mean by 'manye mag na chale panth' - a true follower of Sikh values does not follow any ritualistic ways of whatever group because he/she has understood the real meaning of 'Amrit Bani'.

He/she certainly does not express the kind of agressive, irrational behaviour (a sign of slavery to 5 sins) evident in some of the posts/replies. If that is not clear read 'Assa dee Vaar' (470-472) or Baba Nanak ji's Parbhati bani (1353). If you still do not understand what a true Sikh should be about then take heed from Bhagat Kabir Ji's wonderful words 'Kahe kee kuslaat, haath deep kooeye parye'.

It is really disappointing sometimes to see many of our future Singhs and Singhanyian showing no evidence of real Sikh values. There behaviour seems to be full of ego, while 'Sikhaan daa man neevan, mat uchchie' is repeated and heard so many times. They seem to be arguing as Babaji says 'bin boojhey jhagrat jag kachaa'. Please note we are always promoting Sikhi and the teachings of our Guru SGGSji by the way of how we behave. To do that properly we need to 'Man sach kasvatee layeye, tuleeye poorey toal' - we need to test ourselves on the touchstone of truth to be true beacons of the wonderful 'Gurbani'. I can quote a lot of shabads which teach us that deeds (based on the teachings of SGGSji) are what make us Sikhs not ritauls. There are direct quotes about chanting 'mantras'.

Please forgive das's 2 penny's worth.

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Fateh!

To summarise these 6 pages of waffle then:

- there is an unidentified gurdwara that is doing something Very Bad, but no one apart from the OP knows what it is

- there are some people whose very narrow view of Sikhi does not allow them to understand the point of traditional Sikh maryada like jyot, toof, jal and parshad

- Satkaar that is shown to the Bir of Sri Guru Granth Sahib in traditionally Indian ways that have a long history is equivalent to outright idolatry

- Daily nitnem, regular and concentrated jaap of Mul Mantra, doing simran, akhand paths and sehaj paths are Evil Brahmin Practices!!! or at best entirely useless.

- it's better to understand what you are reading. (Duh?)

- offering a dissenting opinion or pointing out the complete lack of a point in these accusations of heresy and the alternative remedies that are offered, means that you are a ... Slave of the 5 Thieves!!!

This thread gets my vote for biggest waste of time ever on the history of this forum.

K.

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Guest confusingh
Fateh!

To summarise these 6 pages of waffle then:

- there is an unidentified gurdwara that is doing something Very Bad, but no one apart from the OP knows what it is

- there are some people whose very narrow view of Sikhi does not allow them to understand the point of traditional Sikh maryada like jyot, toof, jal and parshad

- Satkaar that is shown to the Bir of Sri Guru Granth Sahib in traditionally Indian ways that have a long history is equivalent to outright idolatry

- Daily nitnem, regular and concentrated jaap of Mul Mantra, doing simran, akhand paths and sehaj paths are Evil Brahmin Practices!!! or at best entirely useless.

- it's better to understand what you are reading. (Duh?)

- offering a dissenting opinion or pointing out the complete lack of a point in these accusations of heresy and the alternative remedies that are offered, means that you are a ... Slave of the 5 Thieves!!!

This thread gets my vote for biggest waste of time ever on the history of this forum.

K.

None of the above is justified in any manner, none of your points are backed up and your argument holds no credibility in regards of debate; I understand for some this may be a sensitive issues which I am addressing, however one minute Im a Kala Afghana supporter, then im confused and theres been a couple more allegations made too lol... however although most of the sangat finds it hard to make up their mind... I'll go through each of your points step by step Veer ji:-

- yes the Guru Ghar will remain unidentified, if you haven't picked up any of the events i've pointed out from as you say '6 pages ' your analytical skills are appauling; all you are then trying to do is claim that the thread is a waste of time etc. this to me suggests you just don't want to hear thoughtful debate, sorry but I don't understand your reasoning behind your posts and there doesn't really seem to be any!... I have clearly stated that Sikhi should be carried out in accordance to moral values and actions (perhaps the only way to assess the morality of a person is to value them upon their actions) in order to become a pure Sikh and live a moral lifestyle, you'd have to obtain knowledge (GIAN) from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji's message, rather than taking a ritualistic approach (how hard is it to understand what the term ritualism means) and attempting to take the complexity of leading a GurSikh life by using mantras as a sole form of learning (it just can't happen) you can't decipher a message purely from phonetics, one has to interpret and give thought as of what the message of Guru Ji is.

-Ok traditional... well I'd rather keep faith in a belief system which is proven and backed up by Bani rather than taking advice from any human form who claims to have exclusive knowledge, as many Singhs are doing in this day and age. Secondly I don't want to go to deep in to your selection of 'maryada' however it seems what you try to do in order to further your inconsistent point is mix up practices carried out by Sikhs with rituals, tell me do you even know the origin of toof?... if you can give me one VALID and CREDIBLE reference to this ritual within Sikhi then I'll be happy to re assess my point; however, I doubt you'll be able to do this as many have concluded the lighting of toof is totally useless. Parshad however is a process in which symbolism is used rather than ritualism, again you have failed to make this distinction

- Indian ways... Sikhi is a universal religion open to all and appreciated by many, the use of traditional 'Indian' rituals has no place in our religion, Satkar of Guru Ji is imperative to the respect required to be a GurSikh ( I haven't questioned changing Guru Ji's Rumala and also treating Guru Ji with respect equivalent of that as a Guru should be) However,,, if the practice is SYMBLOIC and RITUALISTIC then there is no conflict, as Sikhi strictly forbids the use of ritualism within the faith.

-AGAIN I have spoken about routine and symbolism, which are both important parts of being a true GurSikh, I have never said any of the above; I have suggested chanting mantras isn't a form which is justified within Sikhi again nobody has used VALID and JUSTIFIABLE references to Guru Ji in order to disprove this. Many Scholars and well respected Singh and Singhniyan also hold this belief but seem to not prioritise this sensitive issue; you'd be shocked at how many people actually do question the use of chants and ritualistic prayer in Sikhi, after all it is more than evident this isn't the way Sikhi should be practiced.

You haven't made any distinctions, you generalise in order to add effect to your points and you've not once used a logical argument to disprove me in any way... Therefore I'm sorry Veer ji but I don't see your points as being valid.

If This thread is causing offence, then I urge you not to visit the thread, however closing a thread simply because you can't disprove something isn't really justified by any means.

Galti Hoi tan Bhul Chuk Maaf Karo.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

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Confusingh,

1. It was a summary, not an argument.

2. Learn the value of succinctness in language. If you cannot make a point without waffling endlessly, then have someone proofread your posts. Brevity is the soul of wit, and tediousness the limbs and outward flourishes, you dig?

3. You can't detach Sikhi from its Indian roots, no more than you can isolate any religion or philosophy from its historical roots. A Sikh shows respect to Guru Ji in the Indian manner of covering one's head in His presence. A Catholic shows respect in a Church by removing his hat. Do you think entering a Gurdwara with a naked head is something that a Sikh will tolerate? Similarly the tradition followed in Gurdwaras in giving satkaar to Guru Ji developed in an Indian environment with social mores, rules and behavioural patterns unique to that place.

4. I don't know how to tell you this, but anthropologists and sociologists are still debating an accurate definition of ritual to this day. Perhaps you should share your definition with them since you seem to have convinced yourself that it is possible to distinguish between symbol and ritual.

5. The only real point in your word salad above is that it is of fundamental importance to understand bani as well as recite it, otherwise one is just making sounds. I agree. :-) That in no way means that repeating 108 mul mantras or holding an akhand path are fruitless occupations.

6. You mentioned some scholars that you believe agree with whatever point you are trying to make. Name them, reference a book or an essay, please. I'm sure the sangat will find it useful.

Regards,

K.

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Ok traditional... well I'd rather keep faith in a belief system which is proven and backed up by Bani rather than taking advice from any human form who claims to have exclusive knowledge, as many Singhs are doing in this day and age. Secondly I don't want to go to deep in to your selection of 'maryada' however it seems what you try to do in order to further your inconsistent point is mix up practices carried out by Sikhs with rituals, tell me do you even know the origin of toof?... if you can give me one VALID and CREDIBLE reference to this ritual within Sikhi then I'll be happy to re assess my point; however, I doubt you'll be able to do this as many have concluded the lighting of toof is totally useless. Parshad however is a process in which symbolism is used rather than ritualism, again you have failed to make this distinction

So Rumala sahib is not a ritual? ok fine its for respect but then isnt chandua sahib and chaur sahib ritualistic? What function do they serve besides the sign of royalty and respect like doing aarti aarta.

Valid sources you asked for.. sure.

"Sankhan kee dhunn ghantan kee kar phoolan kee barkha barkhaavey.

Aarti kot karey sur sundar pekh purandar ke bal jaavey."

"Deh asses sabhey sur maar sudhaar ke aarti deep jagaaeho.

Phool sugandh su ashat dashan jashan jeet ko geet su gaaeho.

Dhoop jagaaei ke sankh bajaei ke sees nivaaei ke ben sunaeho.

He jag maie sada sukh dai te sumbh ko ghaie bado jas paieho"

"Dhup deep ghirt saaj aarti.

Vaarney jao kamala patti.(1)

Mangala har mangala.

Nit mangal raja raam rai ko. (1) Rahao.

Uuthum deeara nirmal baati.

Tuhi niranjan kamla paati.(2)

Raamaa bhagat raamanand janey.

Pooran paramanand bakhaaney.(3)

Madan moorat bhey taar gobindey.

Sain bhaney bhaj paramanandey. (4)(2)"

hope that is enough?

bhuul chuuk maaf

akaal ji sihae

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