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A Question To Fellow My Brothers And Sisters?

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this is one of the reasons i have completely stopped going to gurdwara. i feel i can learn much more by staying home and reading a book about sikhism. iterating bani or meditating without any knowledge is merely a ritual and i would hate to let myself fall this low. i fail to understand why emphasis these days is placed on quantity rather than quality. you can perform your 1 million recitations of a certain bani but that is just an excuse for inflating your own ego.

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how can anyone argue with someone who can quote Hamlet

so readily?

LOL!!

next its gonna b shakespeare..."o romeoo o romeeo" lol

(i havent been follwin this thread so khalsa jeeo dnt jump @ me lol :rolleyes: jsut read the last few comments and the above quote which mde me lauf hahaha!! ) lol

akaalo :D

regarding the one million jaap "doctor mani" jeeo,

gurbanee is our guroo.. from personal experience the more u read banee.. the more u understand it.. if u keep on reading more and more banee, differnt banee everyday you will realise bhenjee that slowly slowly your understanding increases...

beacuse only maharaj jeeo can give you sojee... mat...intecult can be done be reading books and stuff but guroo sahibb gives us the real giaan... "gur bin ghor andaar"..its all black and dark with guroo sahibs banee...

bhenjee regarding the pumping the ego of x amout of chaupai sahibs, that just shows whos kacha and whos not...

ppl like me are no good dnt do paath, or chaupai sahibs or do gurmantar jaap.. just sleepers (i wud say talkers but im not good @ that eitehr :D lol )...

maaf karna!

one last point bhenj, are u really a doctor?? (in that case im loosing lots of kesh man what do i doo??)

lol sorry!

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Guest confusingh
this is one of the reasons i have completely stopped going to gurdwara. i feel i can learn much more by staying home and reading a book about sikhism. iterating bani or meditating without any knowledge is merely a ritual and i would hate to let myself fall this low. i fail to understand why emphasis these days is placed on quantity rather than quality. you can perform your 1 million recitations of a certain bani but that is just an excuse for inflating your own ego.

The value being brought across in the post is correct, as there is way too much value placed on quantity and there is alot of dilution and non-contextual parchaar and katha being carried out, it is because there is no system for sangat to congregate and debate the meaning and interpretations of Bani is why youngster are becoming more and more alienated from Sikhi, if its not an extreme chant until you drop approach, its a non-existent hardly ever do paath approach. If you do stay at home and gain knowledge then thats your choice (although Rehit Maryada does clearly state we need interaction with Sangat) However ULTIMATELY Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj should be the source of our knowledge, not any old books.

The schools of thought within Sikhi hold no basis, as there is a call for universal brotherhood in most of Guru Ji's message. So the point I make is ok fair dos we have AKJs, Taksali, Sanatan Singhs etc. etc. however aren't these all just there to place dividers within an already small community, each group claims to have exclusivity of something and thats absolutely ridiculous that scholars and 'sants' have condoned this from all groups.

The fact is sangat ji like it or not, its evident Sikhi is a learning experience rather than a 'I'll do this, and then I'll get this' its a value system one has to conform to in order to lead a moral life and get closer to Waheguru. The only responses which have held valid points a previous post which quoted Bani (however I will state Bani is never interpreted in one way and the contextual value of Bani is much more credible than somebody who preaches total false views of Sikhi, not saying the previous did this, their post was quite good) Previous posts have also been made to provide evidence for Sikhi being a learning journey and a means of which a persons deeds are valued rather than rituals. Also, I dont understand the use of extra-effect responses, people are mixing up core Sikh values in order to disprove my point however, as I said Sikhi is complex and not just a simple journey, there are no distinctions taking place...

Confusingh,

1. It was a summary, not an argument.

2. Learn the value of succinctness in language. If you cannot make a point without waffling endlessly, then have someone proofread your posts. Brevity is the soul of wit, and tediousness the limbs and outward flourishes, you dig?

3. You can't detach Sikhi from its Indian roots, no more than you can isolate any religion or philosophy from its historical roots. A Sikh shows respect to Guru Ji in the Indian manner of covering one's head in His presence. A Catholic shows respect in a Church by removing his hat. Do you think entering a Gurdwara with a naked head is something that a Sikh will tolerate? Similarly the tradition followed in Gurdwaras in giving satkaar to Guru Ji developed in an Indian environment with social mores, rules and behavioural patterns unique to that place.

4. I don't know how to tell you this, but anthropologists and sociologists are still debating an accurate definition of ritual to this day. Perhaps you should share your definition with them since you seem to have convinced yourself that it is possible to distinguish between symbol and ritual.

5. The only real point in your word salad above is that it is of fundamental importance to understand bani as well as recite it, otherwise one is just making sounds. I agree. :-) That in no way means that repeating 108 mul mantras or holding an akhand path are fruitless occupations.

6. You mentioned some scholars that you believe agree with whatever point you are trying to make. Name them, reference a book or an essay, please. I'm sure the sangat will find it useful.

Regards,

K.

In regards to distinction, I don't think you are addressing SYMBOLISM and RITUALISM, there has been debates between the definition of ritualism, in sociology and anthropology terms however these are not really applicable to Sikhi and a GurSikh way of life because ultimately we would not be looking to any divine source for answers then, and we would be looking to society and relationships within there in order to obtain knowledge, and our source of knowledge should be Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

We have to be much more conclusive, ultimately RITUALISM is the belief that it is necessary for rites or repeated sets of actions to be carried out in order to practice or worship to a supreme being (Waheguru) within ritualism there is always an exaggeration of quantity, and a value of 'you do this, you get this' is spread; this is clearly not Sikhi so when people are openly promoting this within the religion then it can not be justified.

The distinction of RITUALISM needs to be made in comparison to SYMBOLISM, which is when symbolic representations are made through acts (for example panj pyare are represented) rather as a means of remembrance (as an example) or something alike instead of a means of obtaining something in the form of . The only thing to be obtained is knowledge from Maharaj Ji, and rituals fail to help us obtain this knowledge as we are not understanding something effectively if we are to chant, chanting being when we repetitively utter words without due focus on the meaning or intent of gaining knowledge then simple as we are not interpreting (making logic and applying words in CONTEXT) so if we choose to chant over interpreting Maharaj ji's message we are not gaining Gian therefore this doesn't help us to fulfill our role as GurSikhs, GURU JI WAS DIRECTLY OPPOSED TO IDOL WORSHIP AND RITUALISM WITHIN SIKHI, so why do we carry this on?

Bhul Chuk Maaf Karna, I mean to provide an intelligent debate here, not an argument these are my points and I strongly believe in them, it would be good if we as a Sangat can inform others of our views and debate intelligently. As I said before I see all member of the sangat as my brothers and sisters.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

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VJKK VJKF.

just a comment on the Shabad quoted from SGGSji:

Dhup deep ghirt saaj aarti.Vaarney jao kamala patti.(1Mangala har mangalaNit mangal raja raam rai ko. (1) RahaoUuthum deeara nirmal baatiTuhi niranjan kamla paati.(2Raamaa bhagat raamanand janeyPooran paramanand bakhaaney.(3Madan moorat bhey taar gobindeySain bhaney bhaj paramanandey. (4)(2)" Refrence is emphasising, 'God you have blessed me with the sublime light, pure wick; (person and person's attributes) because you are wonderful pure'. This is explained further on the same page: 'Kayeo deva, kayeo deval, kayeo jangam jateeKayeo dhoop, deep, nayebeda; kayeo poojou paatee.' The Divine Lord has embodied incense, lamp (light), offerings and flowers within his creation and within us (his jot). Then Baba Nanak ji make it clear to us: 'Dhoop Malyanlo, pavan chavro karey, sagal banraye foolant jotee'The Shabad was in response to Brahamans performing artee at Jagannaath, where they are being told that 'God's the provider of natural beauty; and thats the true artee. Who are we to offer him things which he had created, what right do we have? We should enjoy and praise the beauty the Lord has blessed us with not offer his creation back to him to boost our egos (that we offered something).'The line above makes it clear that the breeze coming the mountains is the incense, the fresh air is the fan (chaur) and all the vegetation and flowers is God's 'Jot'. Hence we should curb our egos to say that we are offering something to the Lord. I hope this helps somehow, do forgive my indulgence.

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Fateh!

You know, the people who are claiming that all you need to do is understand the message of the Guru Granth (and that it's not necessary to put in any effort to engage in simran or constant repetition of bani) remind me of the people I occasionally meet in my MMA class who believe they have attained some degree of expertise by reading a few books on Kung Fu.

The result is always the same - there is a look of shock and utter disbelief in their eyes when they realise that their knowledge that there is a lethal pressure point at the back of my neck doesn't mean that they have the skill to make use of that knowledge - right before they find themselves on their backs and mounted by someone intent on punching the arrogance out of their brains.

Some of these people never recover from the blow to their ego and are never to be seen again. The one's who come back swiftly realise that there is no replacement for the experience and confidence gained from constant practice.

The Gurus all said the same thing - empty rituals are useless, repetition of mantras without prem is futile. But that's not quite the same as saying someone MUST NOT engage in sargun forms of worship, or that doing mul mantra jaap for hours every day is worthless.

All the great Gursikhs in our history, and all of the Brahmgiani Mahapurush of recent times, have engaged in intense meditation (simran) for long periods of time to achieve their high avastha: Baba Deep Singh was famous for reciting 101 Jap Ji Sahibs per day, as was Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindrawale, Sant Baba Harnam Singh (Rampur Kheray) used to do 33 malay of Mul Mantra a day. It makes me laugh when people believe that all they need to do is read a few books and the sit on their butts waiting for Waheguru to arrive and introduce Himself to them.

Quality trumps quantity every time, but quality and quantity make good partners.

On the subject of Guru Nanak's Aarti, this bani is speaking of the greatness of Akal Purakh and how nature itself does Waheguru's aarti. The point was to compare the insignificance of the Devatas in comparison with their Creator.

On the subject of the aarti maryada in Hazur Sahib and in Nihang Dals, if people want to wave a few lights around while they are worshipping Waheguru because it helps their concentration, then I don't see a problem with it as they are still worshipping Nirgun form of God. The only problem would be if these Gursikhs believed that fire has some intrinsic quality that makes it attractive to God as a sacrifice.

On the subject of toof, incense has been used in religion since time immemorial as a sacrifice to gods and spirits. Its use in Sikhi has more to do with the fact that it makes the gurdwara smell beautiful, and because of the effect of incense on the mind of a worshipper - it's just a tool, a mental prop if you like, which aids in creating an aura of sanctity and to evoke a religious response in the sangat.

Regards,

K.

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Confusingh:

I am still waiting for the names of these scholars you mentioned and the titles of their publications. It might help the Sangat understand your points if we could see the arguments of the people you claim support your position.

Regards,

K.

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Guest confusingh
Fateh!

You know, the people who are claiming that all you need to do is understand the message of the Guru Granth (and that it's not necessary to put in any effort to engage in simran or constant repetition of bani) remind me of the people I occasionally meet in my MMA class who believe they have attained some degree of expertise by reading a few books on Kung Fu.

The result is always the same - there is a look of shock and utter disbelief in their eyes when they realise that their knowledge that there is a lethal pressure point at the back of my neck doesn't mean that they have the skill to make use of that knowledge - right before they find themselves on their backs and mounted by someone intent on punching the arrogance out of their brains.

Some of these people never recover from the blow to their ego and are never to be seen again. The one's who come back swiftly realise that there is no replacement for the experience and confidence gained from constant practice.

The Gurus all said the same thing - empty rituals are useless, repetition of mantras without prem is futile. But that's not quite the same as saying someone MUST NOT engage in sargun forms of worship, or that doing mul mantra jaap for hours every day is worthless.

All the great Gursikhs in our history, and all of the Brahmgiani Mahapurush of recent times, have engaged in intense meditation (simran) for long periods of time to achieve their high avastha: Baba Deep Singh was famous for reciting 101 Jap Ji Sahibs per day, as was Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindrawale, Sant Baba Harnam Singh (Rampur Kheray) used to do 33 malay of Mul Mantra a day. It makes me laugh when people believe that all they need to do is read a few books and the sit on their butts waiting for Waheguru to arrive and introduce Himself to them.

Quality trumps quantity every time, but quality and quantity make good partners.

On the subject of Guru Nanak's Aarti, this bani is speaking of the greatness of Akal Purakh and how nature itself does Waheguru's aarti. The point was to compare the insignificance of the Devatas in comparison with their Creator.

On the subject of the aarti maryada in Hazur Sahib and in Nihang Dals, if people want to wave a few lights around while they are worshipping Waheguru because it helps their concentration, then I don't see a problem with it as they are still worshipping Nirgun form of God. The only problem would be if these Gursikhs believed that fire has some intrinsic quality that makes it attractive to God as a sacrifice.

On the subject of toof, incense has been used in religion since time immemorial as a sacrifice to gods and spirits. Its use in Sikhi has more to do with the fact that it makes the gurdwara smell beautiful, and because of the effect of incense on the mind of a worshipper - it's just a tool, a mental prop if you like, which aids in creating an aura of sanctity and to evoke a religious response in the sangat.

Regards,

K.

You're applying Kung Fu to Sikhi... As I said Sikhi is a way of life... its totally undermiming of Guru Ji's message to say you don't learn Sikhi from reading and understanding Bani- Don't know what you're talking about, but your weekly sessions at the community centre can't be applied to Sikhi in any way shape or form.

I boxed for most of my life (just because i use vocabulary veer ji doesn't mean i'm a book worm I boxed competitively for the best part of 8 years, followed by competitive weightlifting through uni and into my mid 20s... all quit now!) ; however it was a practice, I'd train up to my fight and then after the fight my training regime wouldn't be as intense, for you to find a comparison between an action and a lifestyle, that's quite illogical!

You're saying things blindly, and you're not thinking in an intelligent manner, my young cousins would probably say to each other 'well he did it, so you should' (infact many of them have understood thats not logical) I'm not taking any credibility away from these great GurSikhs.

Example: go through Baba Jarnail Singh ji's speeches how many of them had any sort of relation to any ritualism or practices, I may be wrong, but every speech I've heard doesn't refer to ritualism, its more about deeds and informing the sangat of the need of action against oppression.

Each person will practice Sikhi differently, but when a person intends of giving parchar which isn't in context (as many of the posters on here have regurgitated to me) I've heard most of the these arguments before and they've not disproved any point I've made, my points have been relevant to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj, but here people are giving GurSikhs divinity and using humans (although great Gursikhs) as a source of knowledge, when clearly our own GURU (TEACHER) should be only Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Whereby which we learn the values and teachings of how to live, by saying 'you're like one of them guys who think you can learn kung fu from a book'... I don't see Guru Maharaj Ji as a 'book' I see Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as my Guru who Dasme Guru Ji informed us of 'GURU MANEYO GRANTH', I have trust in the fact that Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji also had the confidence to give our eternal Guru the form of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj, I have full confidence in the message of Guru ji and the knowledge which can be gained from the message. You are trying to justify rituals as a means of respect, but making an implied comparison of one reading a book and one reading Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as a means of gaining gian to live their lives by, in my opinion is indirectly quite disrespectful in itself! Oh and I agree with you I'm not too succinct in my wording, apologies, however as I said before Sikhi is complex, and a few words as many people have tried to sum it up in doesn't justify the true beauty of Sikhi, so many Gursikhs look externally to become chele of 'sants' (not saying this applies to every sant Gursikh in the world but there are alot of people doing wrong parchaar and using Sikhi as a means of financial gain) they choose not to experience a logical and beautiful Sikhi which requires patience, knowledge and moral values, instead many people choose to place divinity in humans in order to fulfill their role as a Sikh (this is wrong!), however the message to live a pure life is at every Guru Ghar in the world, the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj, any other source is inadequate for a Sikh!

Again, Bhul Chuk Maaf Karna

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

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Singh Ji, Be thankful that you have Gursikhs like these running your Gurdwara instead of corrupt comittees. Im so jealous you have them runnig your Gurdwara, i dont think they doing anything wrong and following Marayda 100%

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Confusingh,

Congratulations for entirely missing the point. For your future reference, analogy does not apply equivalence.

Feel free to name your scholars (this is the 3rd time I am asking) and I may look them up, but I'm not going to waste my time searching through your verbal diarrhoea for some kind of relevant information.

At the end of the day, people will judge the weight of the words according to the avastha of the one speaking them, and I will learn from the example of great Gursikhs like Baba Deep Singh and Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindrawale rather than listen to someone who has yet to learn to communicate a point effectively. There is no democracy in the spiritual realm.

Truth is, though you claim to be a Sikh, it is clear from your words that you have neither sharda nor any bhagti to give your words any meaning. If you are ever lucky enough to have even a basic spiritual experience, it will likely drive you insane because you admit nothing greater than your tiny intellect with which you presume to interpret the Guru Granth Sahib.

I'm done here.

K.

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Guest confusingh
Singh Ji, Be thankful that you have Gursikhs like these running your Gurdwara instead of corrupt comittees. Im so jealous you have them runnig your Gurdwara, i dont think they doing anything wrong and following Marayda 100%

Well we're only a couple of moortian away from being called a mandir, so this commitee your jealous take it from us, to wherever you are sangat doesn't appreciate it.

Also to the rest of the Sangat, me and several other chardhi kalaa'ch Singhs confronted these singhs about their running of the guru ghar... we have reached an agreement where by both parties hold a debate, as well as this they claimed we were very intimidating in our approach so we apologised, both parties have agreed on less rituals... more educational classes, and the Singhs have said they are willing to apologise to Sangat if we find them to be using practices which aren't a part of Sikhi... so a positive result for both parties...

all photos of Sants (apart from Shaheeds such as Bhai Jarnail Singh and other 1980s shaheed Singhs which we put in the first place) have been taken down, wheelchair access has been granted and we have been given time to answer questions from youngsters weekly, the use of fire in aarti has stopped, they agreed with us on most things and claimed there are authorities within Sikhi led by people with little or no education and they have to follow this (i saw this as a bit of a bail out, because maryada is to be followed by all Singhs) as well as pretty much most of the useless illogical rituals which were being used have also been stopped... many of their singhs felt we were trying to muscle them in to this deal however in the end we agreed to disagree, and an election is going to take place next year when these Singhs claim they will choose not to stand. These Singhs when spoken to actually understood our concerns and said they were happy young 'educated' Singhs will be able to make Sikhi prosper, went very smoothly actually!

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

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this is one of the reasons i have completely stopped going to gurdwara. i feel i can learn much more by staying home and reading a book about sikhism. iterating bani or meditating without any knowledge is merely a ritual and i would hate to let myself fall this low. i fail to understand why emphasis these days is placed on quantity rather than quality. you can perform your 1 million recitations of a certain bani but that is just an excuse for inflating your own ego.

u should sit in the hazoori of Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

u dont need to know the meaning of the shabad being sung. just merge with the frequency and ur atma will do the rest of the job :D

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