An Open Challenge To Kala Afghani Khalsa Fauj On Charitropakhayan

[Inder Singh]

So Prof Darshan Singh, Inder Singh Ghagga, Harmanjit Singh on one side and all pro Dasam Granth singhs on other?

WJKK WJKF

That will be decided by us as soon as heretic lobby finalizes. Please write Ragi Darshan singh and not Prof Darshan singh. How these people become professors when they have not seen gates of colleges themselves?

How did Inder ghagha come in between?

[apnepart2]

i will keep my chittars ready then...to hit these 'scholar missionaries'.

[Inder Singh]

So Prof Darshan Singh, Inder Singh Ghagga, Harmanjit Singh on one side and all pro Dasam Granth singhs on other?

WJKK WJKF

But keep in mind that they turn up. They are notorious for running away. Please read the following from Harkinder singh Chahal's post especially in bold.

Quote from harkinder singh ji's post

""his is how Dr Harpal Singh Pannu responded to Dr.

Anokh Singh's shocking questions. By the way, this Dr

Anokh Singh was present in Toronto area location where

about 150 Singhs had assembled to have a debate with

Prof Ghagga on points of contention. Prof. Ghagga

never appeared there as already reported in the press."""

[Inder Singh]

Sangat ji

I have entered into discussion with khalsa fauj earlier on discovesikhi forum.

Normally khalsa fauj and international akali appear together on forums. Mostly it is khalsa fauj aka international akali

to cause impression that they are two persons.

Given below is debate from discover sikhi site on some issues with us and then he fled.

Post by akali international

No you are wrong singh. In bachitar natak it says with the Kaan thee mail of shashobit the whole universe was made. So that is a contradiction. 

As for ardas it is only up to sab thaihee hoye sahai. And that is all. And after that it says

khanda prathmai manaiekai jin sabh saisar oappiya. 

But if you read apni katha aka bachitar natak the entire srishrti was made from kaan thee mail of shashobit raja.

So what should we do? believe one or the other? 				

This post has been edited by [b]International Akaali[/b]: Mar 29 2008, 09:42 AM

Answer by abc123 and that is me

Akali

That verse in Bachitra natak seems to be beyond your comprehension.Have you read that verse or you are just spreading someone else 's propaganda.

I have read that verse.That does not mean what you say above.Please read it yourself.

Post by akali international

Das has read that, and am looking at it right now. 

please explain das the thuk as it is not beyong your comprehension. Please go to dasamgranth.org

Go to Bachitar Natak. Page 12. and you will see in there. I am not spreading anyone elses propoganda with gurus kirpa. With gurus kirpa i am reading what is shown. I will not type in gurmukhi as it take time. I will give you the link. 

[url="http://<banned site filter activated>/institute/dasam/volume1.shtml"]http://<banned site filter activated>/institute/dasam/volume1.shtml[/url]

Page 12. Paragraph 4.

Answer by abc123 and that is me

The link you have given above does not have page 12.Can you correct that?

Post by akali international

You did not click bachitar natak so das will do it for you. Here is the new link:

[url="http://<banned site filter activated>/institute/dasam/pdf/v1_3.pdf"]http://<banned site filter activated>/institute/dasam/pdf/v1_3.pdf[/url]

Now you go to Page 12. Paragraph 4. 

In Kav Bans Varnan. 
Which is Pauri Number 13 it says in Chapai. 


You can see there. So you don't get confused just go to page 12 and 4th paragraph. Pauri number 13

.

Answer by abc123 and that is me

Akali ji

page starts with no 56.From where page 12 comes in.Please check at your end again or you can write it down here.

Akali ji

It is on page 64.have you read first line of chaupai.There Guru ji writes

Pritham kal jab kara pasara

Oankar te sirisht apara

When kal (Lord) first extended

He through Oankar created the world

How it is different from creation of the world as described in SGGS ji.

It is clearly given in Punjabi also.

[Akali ji

It is page 64.Anyway the verse is given below.

in the very first line Guru ji describes how this world was created.

Next is a Myth.Myth is not reality.Myth is told to impart a moral lesson.Moral lessons is given in last lines.

ਚੌਪਈ ॥

चौपई ॥

CHAUPAI

ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਕਾਲ ਜਬ ਕਰਾ ਪਸਾਰਾ ॥ ਓਅੰਕਾਰ ਤੇ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਉਪਾਰਾ ॥

प्रिथम काल जब करा पसारा ॥ ओअंकार ते स्रिसटि उपारा ॥

In the beginning, when KAL created the world, it was brought into being by Aumkara (the One Lord).

ਕਾਲਸੈਣ ਪ੍ਰਥਮੈ ਭਇਓ ਭੂਪਾ ॥ ਅਧਿਕ ਅਤੁਲ ਬਲਿ ਰੂਪ ਅਨੂਪਾ ॥੧੦॥

कालसैण प्रथमै भइओ भूपा ॥ अधिक अतुल बलि रूप अनूपा ॥१०॥

Kal sain was the first king, who was of immeasurable strength and supreme beauty.10.

ਕਾਲਕੇਤ ਦੂਸਰ ਭੂਅ ਭਯੋ ॥ ਕ੍ਰੂਰ ਬਰਸ ਤੀਸਰ ਜਗ ਠਯੋ ॥

कालकेत दूसर भूअ भयो ॥ क्रूर बरस तीसर जग ठयो ॥

Kalket became the second king and Kurabaras, the third.

ਕਾਲਧੁਜ ਚਤੁਰਥ ਨ੍ਰਿਪ ਸੋਹੈ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਤੇ ਭਇਓ ਜਗਤ ਸਭ ਕੋ ਹੈ ॥੧੧॥

कालधुज चतुरथ न्रिप सोहै ॥ जिह ते भइओ जगत सभ को है ॥११॥

Kaldhuj was the fourth kin, from whon the whole world originated. 11.

ਸਹਸਰਾਛ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਸੁਭ ਸੋਹੈ ॥ ਸਹਸ ਪਾਦ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਤਨਿ ਮੋਹੈ॥

सहसराछ जा के सुभ सोहै ॥ सहस पाद जा के तनि मोहै॥

He had a thousand eyes a thousand feet.

ਸੇਖਨਾਗ ਪਰ ਸੋਇਬੋ ਕਰੈ ॥ ਜਗ ਤਿਹ ਸੇਖ ਸਾਇ ਉਚਰੈ ॥੧੨॥

सेखनाग पर सोइबो करै ॥ जग तिह सेख साइ उचरै ॥१२॥

He slept on Sheshanaga, therefore he was called the master of Shesha.12.

ਏਕ ਸ੍ਰਵਣ ਤੇ ਮੈਲ ਨਿਕਾਰਾ ॥ ਤਾ ਤੇ ਮਧੁ ਕੀਟਭ ਤਨ ਧਾਰਾ ॥

एक स्रवण ते मैल निकारा ॥ ता ते मधु कीटभ तन धारा ॥

Out of the secretion from one of his ears, Madhu and Kaitabh came into being.

ਦੁਤੀਯ ਕਾਨ ਤੇ ਮੈਲੁ ਨਿਕਾਰੀ ॥ ਤਾ ਤੇ ਭਈ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਇਹ ਸਾਰੀ ॥੧੩॥

दुतीय कान ते मैलु निकारी ॥ ता ते भई स्रिसटि इह सारी ॥१३॥

And from the secretion of the other ear, the whole world materialized.13.

ਤਿਨ ਕੋ ਕਾਲ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਬਧ ਕਰਾ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਕੋ ਮੇਦ ਸਮੁੰਦ ਮੋ ਪਰਾ ॥

तिन को काल बहुरि बध करा ॥ तिन को मेद समुंद मो परा ॥

After some period, the Lord killed the demons (Madhu and Kaitabh). Their marrow flowed into the ocean.

ਚਿਕਨ ਤਾਸ ਜਲ ਪਰ ਤਿਰ ਰਹੀ ॥ ਮੇਧਾ ਨਾਮ ਤਬਹਿ ਤੇ ਕਹੀ ॥੧੪॥

चिकन तास जल पर तिर रही ॥ मेधा नाम तबहि ते कही ॥१४॥

The greasy substance floated thereon, because of that medital (marrow), the earth was called medha (or medani).14.

ਸਾਧ ਕਰਮ ਜੇ ਪੁਰਖ ਕਮਾਵੈ ॥ ਨਾਮ ਦੇਵਤਾ ਜਗਤ ਕਹਾਵੈ ॥

साध करम जे पुरख कमावै ॥ नाम देवता जगत कहावै ॥

Because of virtuous actions, a purusha (person) is known as devta (god)

ਕੁਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਕਰਮ ਜੇ ਜਗ ਮੈ ਕਰਹੀ ॥ ਨਾਮ ਅਸੁਰ ਤਿਨ ਕੋ ਸਭ ਧਰਹੀ ॥੧੫॥

कुक्रित करम जे जग मै करही ॥ नाम असुर तिन को सभ धरही ॥१५॥

And because of evil actions, he is known as asura (demon).15.

ਬਹੁ ਬਿਸਥਾਰ ਕਹਾਂ ਲਗੈ ਬਖਾਨੀਅਤ ॥ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਬਢਨ ਤੇ ਅਤਿ ਡਰੁ ਮਾਨੀਅਤ ॥

बहु बिसथार कहां लगै बखानीअत ॥ ग्रंथ बढन ते अति डरु मानीअत ॥

If everything is described in detail, it is feared that the description will become voluminous.

When he realizes he is wrong international akali tries to change the subject

Post by akali international

This is my last post. I will be closing my eyes. 

Why was bachitar natak written? It is apaani Katha. an autobiography. Why would myths be written in apaani katha. who cares why does this effect me? do you care if a myth says the univerise was made with the grime of ear?

Also did you read the last line you posted in there

ਬਹੁ ਬਿਸਥਾਰ ਕਹਾਂ ਲਗੈ ਬਖਾਨੀਅਤ ॥ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਬਢਨ ਤੇ ਅਤਿ ਡਰੁ ਮਾਨੀਅਤ ॥
बहु बिसथार कहां लगै बखानीअत ॥ ग्रंथ बढन ते अति डरु मानीअत ॥
If everything is described in detail, it is feared that the description will become voluminous.

"guru sahib" is too scared that the granth is gonna get too big. "Guru sahib" has fear instilled in him according to this quote.

Answer by abc123 and that is me

The moral is in these two lines.

ਸਾਧ ਕਰਮ ਜੇ ਪੁਰਖ ਕਮਾਵੈ ॥ ਨਾਮ ਦੇਵਤਾ ਜਗਤ ਕਹਾਵੈ ॥

साध करम जे पुरख कमावै ॥ नाम देवता जगत कहावै ॥

Because of virtuous actions, a purusha (person) is known as devta (god)

ਕੁਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਕਰਮ ਜੇ ਜਗ ਮੈ ਕਰਹੀ ॥ ਨਾਮ ਅਸੁਰ ਤਿਨ ਕੋ ਸਭ ਧਰਹੀ ॥੧੫॥

कुक्रित करम जे जग मै करही ॥ नाम असुर तिन को सभ धरही ॥१५॥

And because of evil actions, he is known as asura (demon).15.

When guru sahib has said in the very first line that Oankar created this world then

there is no doubt left.

This is a myth described to convey that people who do good works are appreciated and demons are punished.Myths are In SGGS also but these are used extensively in Dasam Granth.

Such myths are there all over the world.There is babylonian myth of creation.Then there is biblical

myth of creation.Mahabharata have also such myths.A myth is not reality.

The point here is that those who criticize that guru ji wrote like this need to understand these myths.Had they that much exposure especially these 10th grade missionaries, they will never question Dasam Granth bani.

Post by akali international

ok if the writer is too scared about writing these myths so the granth will get so big. Why write them in the first place? And after the line where he says im too scared that the granth will get big.... Is that all a myth too? From that point he should stop writing the myths because the granth is gonna get too big. So I'm assumming the writings of myths should be over and the only thing that should be written is of some value rather than a myth.

Answer by abc123 and that is me

The writer has given moral lessons at the end of condensed of myths.The last line just denotes that

he is not elaborating as it may enlarge the granth.That means that essence of the myth is conveyed.

Post by akali international

What moral do you get out of this story? What is your definition of moral lessons? 

Where is he saying this is a moral lesson? what is the moral in the story?

Answer by abc123 and that is me

Akali

Have not you read earlier?I reproduce.

ਸਾਧ ਕਰਮ ਜੇ ਪੁਰਖ ਕਮਾਵੈ ॥ ਨਾਮ ਦੇਵਤਾ ਜਗਤ ਕਹਾਵੈ ॥

साध करम जे पुरख कमावै ॥ नाम देवता जगत कहावै ॥

Because of virtuous actions, a purusha (person) is known as devta (god)

ਕੁਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਕਰਮ ਜੇ ਜਗ ਮੈ ਕਰਹੀ ॥ ਨਾਮ ਅਸੁਰ ਤਿਨ ਕੋ ਸਭ ਧਰਹੀ ॥੧੫॥

कुक्रित करम जे जग मै करही ॥ नाम असुर तिन को सभ धरही ॥१५॥

And because of evil actions, he is known as asura (demon).15.

To undersatd this subject in detail you need to read a little more in depth about patriarchal system of the world.What was before that.What drawbacks it had.When marriage was institutionalized .It took care of many ills of society.So on and so on.Missonaries who have not crossed 10th standard cann't understand such depth of Dasam Granth.The last line is not aimed at you.You seem to be very intelligent man but misled by missionaries.

Let us revert to original discussion now.What is your problem with vaar sri Bhagauti ji ki?

There is noithing wrong in that.

source: http://forums.panthic.net/index.php?showto...23535&st=60

Then sudden silence by khalsa fauj and international akali. They stop spreading mischief on that site. Thnenthey go other sites and do the same mischief. finally they were together

on Sikhphilosophy . net where they are accorded welcome to spread nonsense as in case of Chartira 21,22 and 23.

Come on fake scholar and let us have a discussion. otherwise stop spreading blasphemy .

[guptveer1469]

Inder Singh, he wants a debate of himself, as Prof Ghagga and Darshan Singh are either too old or can't debate. Why don't you debate him alone then. Inder Singh, are you going to Toronto then?

Any Singh of Toronto area up for the challenge? How come most people that are anti-DG, are Canadian Sikhs? Is it because of singhsabhacanada etc?

WJKK WJKF

[Inder Singh]

Inder Singh, he wants a debate of himself, as Prof Ghagga and Darshan Singh are either too old or can't debate. Why don't you debate him alone then. Inder Singh, are you going to Toronto then?

Any Singh of Toronto area up for the challenge? How come most people that are anti-DG, are Canadian Sikhs? Is it because of singhsabhacanada etc?

WJKK WJKF

That is phoney excuse. As he is not doing any work he can come to California.

We will pay for his ticket.You have seen his capability and his skills in the sample post

above.

How come most people that are anti-DG, are Canadian Sikhs? Is it because of singhsabhacanada etc?

Who is asking the above question. Is it you?

[sikhlionz]

does being "doctor"/"professor" of chemistry or flanna themkra subject give you Giaan of Dasam Bani? next to our Guru in sadhsangat nobody is "professor".

if a person refuses to accept Dasam Bani how is that person "Singh"?

lastly which Guru set up singhsabhacanada?

why waste time debating with a eunuch? let these impotent people hide away & do nindiyaa of Bani from websites, CDs, books, etc. for in the end it will not change who and what they are - we all have to face Mahakaal one day.