Thaali In Aarti?

[jassa]

01. Waheguruji is everywhere yet we take off our shoes when we go into Guru Ghar. Why don't we walk barefoot everywhere?

Thats what i m saying nirgun akalpurkh is every where but sargun akalpurkh is guru granth sahib ...

02. My humble request is put the 'thaali' Aarti to the test of Guru Nanak Sahib Ji's Aarti Sahib. How can one say gagan is thaal and then use a thaal for Aarti Sahib.

Guru Nanak dev ji said it very well gagan is thaal no one is questioning ... we are doing arrti of akalpurkh with gagan as thaal ... no one can do aarti of akalpurk with the other thaal ... you point it in one direction akal purkh is in other three directions also ... BUT ... physical guru granth sahib is present in front of us ... we start with the aarti of nirgun akalpurkh to sargun akalpurkh sri guru granth sahib ... and test it with guru sahibs bani it makes it very much clear that god exists in both forms ... and even in aarti it there are few shabads which talk about aarti of nirgun akalpurkh and sargun akalpurkh ...

03. Nanded comes in Maharashtra and Aarti is very common there.

Then ?

04. Maybe Aarti was done till the Panth realized that it was wrong to use thaali when Guruji has said that gagan is the thaali. I don't think there is proof that thalis were used during Guru Gobind Singh Ji's time. There could be a school of thought that says this but there is no proof.

in 1919 400 meters from akaltakth sahib jallianwalla bagh kand happened ... the panth sitting at akaltakth sahib didnt had any power to speak against it ... in 1920 they stoped aarti in harimander sahib ... was that they realised it was wrong or was that british wanted it to stop along side all the nagars and jangi jaikaras ???

maybe u never heard about aarti at kessgarh sahib and about the thaals ... this is first time you are hearing about it and then your mind said may be there is no proof ... i dont know what the reason is but this is what happened ... the proof is same ... there is nagni barchi kept at kess garh sahib in the center where we do its darshan they say its the same barchi guru sahib gave to baba bachitar singh to fight elephant ... we accept it and do namaskar ... but when some one say these are thaals aarti was done in them we ask for proof becuase our mind is closed we only allow those things to enter which we want to ...

same thing happened with kalgi of guru sahib few days back ... people had in mind guru sahib dressed always simple ... when they saw kalgi it had gems other beautiful things ... they say its not of guru whats the proof ... becuase there picture of guru sahib was different and the picture of kalgi was different ...

90 percent of sikhs last 50 years first make a picture of there guru and sikh dharam and then start learning about it ... they accept what their picture said and reject everything that doesnt fit there ... we can clearly see it in our youth ... just within a day they start learning about sikhi they can tell what guru sahib can do what they cant ... and all of us are part of that 90 percent writting here just reading the title of our thread scan our picture and start typing even if we dont have the clue about the thread ... which is wrong ... i m also including myself into this 90 percent ...

All I say is if Guruji said that gagan is thaali then why are we using a thaali?

in ardas we say sri akalpurkh ji sahye ... first line then we do namaskar to bhagauti and then our gurus ... why dont we stop at sri akal purkh ji sahye ... guru nanak guru angad are all included in it ... sri akal purkh ji sahye ... thats it ... akalpurkh namaskar and guru namaskar are both necceasry ... with gagan as thall its akalpurh nu namaskar ... then in next shabad we read in aarti ... bhagat ravidas said naam tero aarti ... naam tero assno naam tero ursa ... if we look it at conflicting mind ... guru nanak sahibs shabad and bhagat ravidas jis shabad are conflicting ... guru nanak sahib is saying thaal is gagan and bhagat ravidas is saying thaal is naam ... then sri sain jis shabad we read ... dhup deep karit saaj aarti varne jau kamla paati ... here they are talking about real metalic deeps and aarti thaal ... then in parbhati next shabad we read leh aarti ho purkh niranjan satguru pujho bhai ... here they are talking about aarti of satguru sri guru granth sahib ... then we read how to do this aarti ... sakhan ki dhun ghantan ki ghar fullan ki barkha barkhave ... and when we apply it we say its brhamanvad ...

i dont know what we will say next before it was dasam granth on the touchstone of sri guru granth sahib now it one shabad of guru granth sahib on the touchstone of other shabad of guru granth sahib ...

i would soon post a short part of katha talking about muslims and hazuri khalsa in early 1900 hundreds when punjab was deciding whats brhamnvaad and whats not and they followers of the so called brhamnvadd did a wonder which true sikhs of punjab can never do ... will search cut and post ... very soon

[Balbir Singh]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!

Dear all!

Please listen. Gurdev is singing 'gagan main thaal . . . '.

It means thaal in gagan. It does not mean gagan is thaal.

Also, Gurdev wrote Aartee explaining. Everything in the cosmos is doing Aartee as God wants them to do it.

My curiosity is to know. Is singing this Hymn, mostly incomplete, is the way of doing Aartee allotted to Keertanias?

Is the audience participating in doing Aartee by hearing Keertanias?

What is about those who are not present in Gurdwaaraas?

Balbir Singh

[vikramjitsingh]

Fateh parwaan karro jiyo,

Guruji called it Aarta. So it has to be different from the Aarti done by Hindus.

Bhagats tried to dissuade us form the Brahminical way of doing Arti, after all they were part of the reform movement. Guruji gave the Aarti a cosmic look and Bhagat ji said HIS naam is equivalent to Aarti. The objectives are clear. And that is break us way from getting entangled in the means used by Brahmins to do Aarti. Guruji and Bhagats made us focus on the objective ( goal) of the Aarti. When entire nature is doing HIS Aarti why do we need thaalis etc?

Imagine a Sikh can perform Aarti anywhere and at anytime. In the olden days when Sikhs were fighting the Mughals they performed Aarti and Guruji's Aarti also instructed them that they did not need thaalis etc., to do Aarti. You do not have to be in front of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji to perform Aarti... with Waheguruji you can perform Aarti anywhere.

Dasam Granth is the Bani of Guru Gobind Singh Ji and is held in the highest esteem. Vaari jaawa on Guruji's Bani.

Rabindranath Tagore who penned the India's National Anthem , when questioned that what he felt should be the National Anthem of humanity had said that Guru Nanak Sahib Ji's Aarti.

Bhul chuk maaf karro jiyo

[Only five]

Fateh parwaan karro jiyo,

Guruji called it Aarta. So it has to be different from the Aarti done by Hindus.

Bhagats tried to dissuade us form the Brahminical way of doing Arti, after all they were part of the reform movement. Guruji gave the Aarti a cosmic look and Bhagat ji said HIS naam is equivalent to Aarti.

Vikramjit Singh, if you could provide that shabad here then we can see exactly what it is saying. The shabad by Bhagat Ravi Das ji says to do with devotion and it has merit.

The objectives are clear. And that is break us way from getting entangled in the means used by Brahmins to do Aarti. Guruji and Bhagats made us focus on the objective ( goal) of the Aarti. When entire nature is doing HIS Aarti why do we need thaalis etc?

As I said before Singh, it is another way to express your love toward Guru Sahib.

Imagine a Sikh can perform Aarti anywhere and at anytime. In the olden days when Sikhs were fighting the Mughals they performed Aarti and Guruji's Aarti also instructed them that they did not need thaalis etc., to do Aarti. You do not have to be in front of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji to perform Aarti... with Waheguruji you can perform Aarti anywhere.

This is getting back to the sargun and Nirgun saroop. It would be best to read that part again.

Dasam Granth is the Bani of Guru Gobind Singh Ji and is held in the highest esteem. Vaari jaawa on Guruji's Bani.

Rabindranath Tagore who penned the India's National Anthem , when questioned that what he felt should be the National Anthem of humanity had said that Guru Nanak Sahib Ji's Aarti.

Bhul chuk maaf karro jiyo

Virkamjit Singh, I asked before and I'll ask again. Is there a shabad in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji that says Aarti with devotion is a ritual. This is the center piece of this discussion.

[vikramjitsingh]

Fateh parwaan karro jiyo,

Devotion has to have Maryada. I recall an analogy done by Sant Maskeen Singh Ji. He said that Sikhs have both leela and maryada and he gave the example that we do Kirtan which is leela but we do not clap and dance which is maryada. Say if someone started to dance and clap in devotion during Aarti will this be acceptable? Akal Purakh ki Fauj has to have maryada.

Guru Nanak Sahib ji has changed the Aarti of the Hindus to Aarta. He saw the temporariness of the articles used during Aarti and gave a sense of permanence in his Aarta.

Devotion of a Fauj has to be disciplined. And so has to be the 'nishaana' or aim.

Guru Rakha

[Only five]

Fateh parwaan karro jiyo,

Devotion as to have Maryada. I recall an analogy done by Sant Maskeen Singh Ji. He said that Sikhs have both leela and maryada and he gave the example that we do Kirtan which is leela but we do not clap and sing which is maryada. Say if someone started to dance and sing in devotion during Aarti will that be acceptable? Akal Purakh ki Fauj has to have maryada.

Guru Nanak Sahib ji has changed the Aarti of the Hindus to Aarta. He saw the temporariness of the articles used during Aarti and gave a sense of permanence in his Aarta.

Devotion of a Fauj has to be disciplined.

Guru Rakha

Okay, now show me the backing of the Maryada that using Gurbani to say Aarti with devotion is a ritual. Third time I am asking this same question. Maryada also comes from Gurbani.

And I would rethink that clapping bit. Clapping distracts others from listening to the kirtan. When Aarti is done. Gurbani is read. Now tell me Vikramjit Singh does Gurbani help control the mind or take it out of control. Is Gurbani to calm the mind or to drive a person into dancing and clapping. We Singhs read Gurbani everyday and yet don't know that a person is calmed and has control over himself, when reading Gurbani or listen or doing kirtan!!!! Is anyone actually contemplating over the shabad or just reading ritually. OOOhhh it's done out of the way, lets go follow the mind.

Kirtan does not make one dance or clap because Gurbani is read. Gurbani helps a person control the mind. An action of jumping for joy when your happy and crying when your feeling sad is an emotional outburst where you are controlled by worldly events. Gurbani once read with full concentration helps to balance these emotions. Once balanced happiness and sadness are seen one and the same. Dancing is an action of joy and no control over the emotions. Gurbani helps to control this so it would be really foolish to say Gurbani can promote it.

The mind is what makes a person dance; the manmat is what makes you dance and clap.

[vikramjitsingh]

Fateh parwaan karro jiyo,

karam Dharam pakhand jo deeseh tin jam jaagaatee lootai.

The religious rites, rituals and hypocrisies which are seen, are plundered by the Messenger of Death, the ultimate tax collector.

Guruji took the thaali used for Aarti from our hands and showed us the real Aarti and called it Aarta, and we are grabbing the thaali back again! One can attribute many reasons why we do not clap and dance but fact of the matter it this is not Sikh maryada and so we do not do this. Guruji told us to keep kess and I've heard so many theories. Why do we need theories ... what are we trying to prove..... our Guru has ordered us to keep Kess and that is all that matters. Guruji's Hukam is unquestionable. Don't you feel that Aarta too is a Hukam from Guru Nanak Sahib Ji? The entire 'kaaynaat' is doing HIS Aarta, you do not need temporary items to do HIS Aarta.

Why should we negate Guru Nanak Sahib ji's Aarta by using the thaali?

Say I have to appear for an exam and I'm very well prepared. The rules of the examination say I should use a Black ball point pen, but I insist on using a Pencil. I'll be failed . Not because I did not know the answers but because I refused to obey the rules.

Guru Ji has via the Shabad set the rules for Aarta. We do need the thaali and the customary items of Aarti in the thaali.

Guru Rakha

[Only five]

Fateh parwaan karro jiyo,

karam Dharam pakhand jo deeseh tin jam jaagaatee lootai.

The religious rites, rituals and hypocrisies which are seen, are plundered by the Messenger of Death, the ultimate tax collector.

Guruji took the thaali used for Aarti from out hands and showed us the real Aarti and called it Aarta, and we are grabbing the thaali back again! One can attribute many reasons why we do not clap and dance but fact of the matter it this is not Sikh maryada and so we do not do this. Guruji told us to keep kess and I've heard so many theories. Why do we need theories ... what are we trying to prove..... our Guru has ordered us to keep Kess and that is all that matters. Guruji's Hukam is unquestionable. Don't you feel that Aarta too is a Hukam from Guru Nanak Sahib Ji? The entire 'kaaynaat' is doing HIS Aarta, you do not need temporary items to do HIS Aarta.

Why should we negate Guru Nanak Sahib ji's Aarta by using the thaali?

Guru Rakha

Guru Sahib explains everything to us. And it is not fair to present the tuk, which you did, because first you have not showed Gurbani which says Aarti with devotion is a ritual. Guru Sahib teaches us, he is not a dictatorship, pushing rules and fines on us. Guru Sahib tells us then explains.

Tell us in which shabad Guru Sahib took the thaali from us. This is the fourth time I am asking you to present a shabad that says doing aarti of sargun saroop with devotion is a ritual. The Maryada laid down by Guru Sahib has reason behind it. Everything he tells us has a reason to it. And yet you have not produced one from Gurbani to say what you claim. If you believe what I said about dancing and clapping is a theory then next time you listen to kirtan start dancing and at the same time know exactly what is being said with love and devotion for the shabad. Try it and see what is controling you. The mind or the Kirtan. Then do the same start dancing with just Japji Sahib on and see what is in control, the foolish mind or that love and devotion.

No one is questioning Guru Sahib hukam, but finding the reason behind the Hukam is not a crime, but seen as progress.

You speak of negate Guru Nanak Dev ji's truth, but have not present one shabad that says doing aarti of sargun saroop with devotion is a ritual. Conclusion with no evidence is just an opinion.

[vikramjitsingh]

Fateh parwaan karo jiyo,

I think I've presented my case. When Guruji calls 'gagan thaal' I think its very clear that he's 'taken away the thaali'. Of course every Hukam of Guruji has a reason, but today its become a fashion to spin of theories of our own. A recent one that I've heard is Amrit Vela does not mean only early morning but the entire day or when you do Jaap then that becomes Amirt Vela for you.

I'm indeed surprised that we look for hidden meanings in Guruji's Hukams but choose to ignore a clear Hukam of His like Aarta. In case Guruji was not against the Hindu Aarti then why did he pen Aarta?

I now leave it to the Sangath to decide.

Bhull chuk maaf and Guru Rakha.

[Only five]

Fateh parwaan karo jiyo,

I think I've presented my case. When Guruji calls 'gagan thaal' I think its very clear that he's 'taken away the thaali'.

Sargun and Nirgun saroop of Waheguru are important to understand.

Of course every Hukam of Guruji has a reason, but today its become a fashion to spin of theories of our own. A recent one that I've heard is Amrit Vela does not mean only early morning but the entire day or when you do Jaap then that becomes Amirt Vela for you.

Singh tell me when Gurbani makes you dance and clap so I and the sangat can listen to the same shabad and see for ourselves. And I am being completely serious here.

I'm indeed surprised that we look for hidden meanings in Guruji's Hukams but choose to ignore a clear Hukam of His like Aarta. In case Guruji was not against the Hindu Aarti then why did he pen Aarta?

I now leave it to the Sangath to decide.

Bhull chuk maaf and Guru Rakha.

Something for you might be hidden, but Guru Sahib puts everything out in the open. Some read to find reasons for their own marayada and some listen to hear what is written. Again you say Guru Sahib gives us a Hukam, but your unable to present this Hukam. Show me where this Hukam is so this moorakh can learn. It's evident there isn't one, but you continue to say it is, which is manmat and distortion of Guru Sahibs word, Gurbani. If Guru Sahib was against Aarti then present in which shabad he says it's foolish to do. Singh if you want to see a rejection of a practice then read the shabads on idol worship. The rejection is there. The person is called a blind and mute who preforms idol worship. Present one shabad like this on Aarti and I'll apologize for wasting your time. I have asked you 8 or 10 times to present the shabads. But not one has been presented. This gets a person wondering and it shows lack of creditability.

Yes the sangat will decide, but they won't use some self made Marayada's or go by some conclusion with no evidence. The sangat is going to look toward Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji for the answer. They will go to the shabads that speak about Aarti. They will contemplate over the same shabads countless times. They will speak with Gursikhs. Then again go back to the shabads and contemplate over them more and more and then come to a conclusion.

Chardikala